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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: If you cant capture it on video, it's probably a lie @ hot stacking lies.

  1. #31
    Telaran Curuca's Avatar
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    Who is worse, the one who cry to make the others class got nerfed, or the nerfed that cries for loosing the advantage.

    If your class is nerfed, try to improve your skills, for most of you is a matter of finding new Macros xD...
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  2. #32
    Banned overbyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    Ya except in pvp, with all the stuns, mana drains, interrupts going on, no one is out there sustained dmg of 1500 dps. Where a stack of rolling hots from one cleric can easily hit 1.2k per tick of soothing stream, easily and on average gear. Where as 1.5k dps in a pvp situation would take full relics from HK, the HK set, and being allowed to completely free cast. Your numbers are very skewed and the shenannigans I see are your numbers. 2-3 Soothing stream stacks, plus cleanses, plus fall out AoE healing from any bards, chloros, justicar etc is a HUGE amount of incoming healing, healing designed to keep people alive thru raid mechanics. So while you are completely fabricating your point about how much dps an individual will pull against 40% dmg reduction + all of their attacks are not high dmg attacks, as in pvp you need to use your utility spells, not just a damage rotation, The only point I can see you trying to make is you have issues healing through unexpected heavy pressure. Not all clerics do, hence the toning down of hot stacking.

    Also there is no such thing as a 75% healing debuff.
    This. OP is as wrong as can be. If he were any more wrong, he'd start being slightly right.
    Last edited by overbyte; 03-20-2012 at 09:45 AM.

  3. #33
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesmergia View Post
    Which is what I think all this fuss over stacking hots in PvP is over, people overexaggerating just to get a class nerfed so they can laugh in secret while they have more of an advantage than you need.
    To get a class nerfed then laugh about it later with an advantage would imply a higher intelectual (manupulative) level than what I expect from here. I honestly think people just cry out for nerfs blindly, without consideration. This isn't the only case. People cry for nerfs without much consideration of the big picture and want to be boosted without seeing the big picture. Not everyone reading here is a dummy but I see plenty of thoughtless rants that are more rage fueled than logic filled. Unfortunately I see too many things up end getting nerfed/dumbed down. Nerf pyro pvp damage, nerf RS runners, nerf warrior non-gcd abilities, nerf heals stacking. It's all pathetic if you ask me.

    I'd just like to point out to anyone in support of heals not stacking - DPS stacks. I'm a rogue and I hate tough to kill healer as much as anyone but, if I get to wail on a healer alone I can often spike the down pretty decently. The purest of pure healers really wouldn't only take 1 or 2 more good DPS teaming with my MM to kill. A healer a lone is really hard to kill with raw damage and no timed debuffs/cc effects. A little smart gameplay can also go a long way. Like don't silence the clerics cast abilty when they have 75% hp. Interrupt it when they are below 25% they will hate you more for it. Ugh, just dumbing down of counterable things
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  4. #34
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curuca View Post
    Who is worse, the one who cry to make the others class got nerfed, or the nerfed that cries for loosing the advantage.

    If your class is nerfed, try to improve your skills, for most of you is a matter of finding new Macros xD...
    I assure you, no even semi decent healing clerics rely on macros.
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
    If you want a healer so bad why don't you roll one up?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    There's little point in trying to convince some people. Under the most ideal of healing circumstances with 4+ clerics cross-healing (all clerics stacking 4 Soothing Streams one target) the multiple stacks might have been OP, however this is the exception. That's 4GCD's per cleric spent stacking them just to keep one person alive... which leaves any one of those clerics vulnerable. Frankly, the only time it might ever happen that I can think of would be during turtling in whitefall on the flag holder. Rogues and warriors can be COMPLETELY OP in every way in PvP and they just get more buffs. Hell in 1.8 warriors are going to be even more ridiculous. There's always just not playing Rift at all I guess if the devs want to screw certain classes.
    You're going to try and use the ol' build-up excuse now, are you? Because that has worked for so many other callings lol

    Did you honestly think when DR from valor was increased that healing would stay the same? Really? Valor wasn't increased to help make healing more effective. It was to offset burst and generally keep people alive a wee bit longer even in the absence of healing. It indirectly translated to a buff to healing and more specifically, an unnecessary buff to healing. So now the devs are looking at numbers...objective numbers...that say things need some changing.

    If you want to believe that things in the game only change because of player QQ, that's your deal. It'll make you unhappy in EVERY MMO you ever play until you accept the reality, but I don't have to share your disappointment. I know enough about how things work on the dev side to know that feedback is only a part of the equation. You don't think Trion pulls reports that show the lopsided warfront matches so they can take a look at what happened? "Jarvis, show me a list of all warfront matches in the last 7 days that involved anything greater than a 5:1 kill ratio for one team over the other."

    "Wow, that's up from before we made <whatever change> with <patch whatever>. What's going on here. Oh, this match had three healers on the dominant team. None of them died. Okay. 200k+ healing each. Okay. Two of the healers took just over 80k in healing each, the other just over 70k, and from the looks of things here we've got 3 dps on the other team with a clue who show 60-80k damage done and no KBs at all, and everyone else on that team is below 30k. Okay..."

    "Jarvis, show me a stacked line graph from the losing team showing damage done relative to time. Ahh, yes. Looks like most of them had mostly given up by the 3 minute mark. By that time they had killed a total of 4 enemy players, the enemy had killed 23 of their players."

    "Jarvis, show me the dominant team's damage numbers as a function of burst over team average dps. Wow. Tank warriors really do awful damage, don't they? But when they don't ever die, they can sure whittle people down. Right. Yup. Let's see here. Mages, MM spamming Fan Out (we should really just take away their action bars if they're going to stay that awful.)."

    "Okay. So on one side we have a team that was capable of focused offense and should have been competitive, but they couldn't burn through the healers and while they were trying, they were getting chewed up by sub-standard offensive builds and Fan Out spam. Come the three minute mark, most of the players on that team had given up and the outcome of the match at that point was entirely predictable."

    "What do the forums have to say about this? Ahh, they say cross-healing wardens are breaking the game. Seems to line up with what we're seeing. Ready the nerf-cannon, Jarvis!"

    But if you want to ignore Jarvis and believe that things only change because of forum QQ, like I said...fill yer boots.

  6. #36
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    You're going to try and use the ol' build-up excuse now, are you? Because that has worked for so many other callings lol

    Did you honestly think when DR from valor was increased that healing would stay the same? Really? Valor wasn't increased to help make healing more effective. It was to offset burst and generally keep people alive a wee bit longer even in the absence of healing. It indirectly translated to a buff to healing and more specifically, an unnecessary buff to healing. So now the devs are looking at numbers...objective numbers...that say things need some changing.

    If you want to believe that things in the game only change because of player QQ, that's your deal. It'll make you unhappy in EVERY MMO you ever play until you accept the reality, but I don't have to share your disappointment. I know enough about how things work on the dev side to know that feedback is only a part of the equation. You don't think Trion pulls reports that show the lopsided warfront matches so they can take a look at what happened? "Jarvis, show me a list of all warfront matches in the last 7 days that involved anything greater than a 5:1 kill ratio for one team over the other."

    "Wow, that's up from before we made <whatever change> with <patch whatever>. What's going on here. Oh, this match had three healers on the dominant team. None of them died. Okay. 200k+ healing each. Okay. Two of the healers took just over 80k in healing each, the other just over 70k, and from the looks of things here we've got 3 dps on the other team with a clue who show 60-80k damage done and no KBs at all, and everyone else on that team is below 30k. Okay..."

    "Jarvis, show me a stacked line graph from the losing team showing damage done relative to time. Ahh, yes. Looks like most of them had mostly given up by the 3 minute mark. By that time they had killed a total of 4 enemy players, the enemy had killed 23 of their players."

    "Jarvis, show me the dominant team's damage numbers as a function of burst over team average dps. Wow. Tank warriors really do awful damage, don't they? But when they don't ever die, they can sure whittle people down. Right. Yup. Let's see here. Mages, MM spamming Fan Out (we should really just take away their action bars if they're going to stay that awful.)."

    "Okay. So on one side we have a team that was capable of focused offense and should have been competitive, but they couldn't burn through the healers and while they were trying, they were getting chewed up by sub-standard offensive builds and Fan Out spam. Come the three minute mark, most of the players on that team had given up and the outcome of the match at that point was entirely predictable."

    "What do the forums have to say about this? Ahh, they say cross-healing wardens are breaking the game. Seems to line up with what we're seeing. Ready the nerf-cannon, Jarvis!"

    But if you want to ignore Jarvis and believe that things only change because of forum QQ, like I said...fill yer boots.
    So healing shouldn't be a factor in who wins a WF, just a little speedbump to make it more challenging for DPS to add to their fun, got it. God forbid 4 healers cross-healing could be effective.
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    So healing shouldn't be a factor in who wins a WF, just a little speedbump to make it more challenging for DPS to add to their fun, got it. God forbid 4 healers cross-healing could be effective.
    If you want to argue in black and white terms, that's also your thing. There's a difference between influencing the outcome and dominating the outcome. Cross healing wardens are easily capable of being the dominating influence in the outcome.

    At the end of the day, you can argue about what "should" be, based on your opinion, until you pass out. The changes are on the PTS. They're there for a reason. Safe bet they're going to go through. And you're going to adapt or ragequit. It doesn't matter.

  8. #38
    Sword of Telara Wawer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    Ya except in pvp, with all the stuns, mana drains, interrupts going on, no one is out there sustained dmg of 1500 dps. Where a stack of rolling hots from one cleric can easily hit 1.2k per tick of soothing stream, easily and on average gear. Where as 1.5k dps in a pvp situation would take full relics from HK, the HK set, and being allowed to completely free cast.
    You are comparing a Hot that click every 3sec to DAMAGE PER SECOND? Seriously.
    Also, your average gear seem pretty high ended. I have like 1.6k SP and my 4 soothing stream click like only 1k(crt). Considered that I have almost the same SP as most R40 cleric, I doubt it is "easy and on average gear"
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  9. #39
    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kok View Post
    You are comparing a Hot that click every 3sec to DAMAGE PER SECOND? Seriously.
    Also, your average gear seem pretty high ended. I have like 1.6k SP and my 4 soothing stream click like only 1k(crt). Considered that I have almost the same SP as most R40 cleric, I doubt it is "easy and on average gear"
    mmmm, actually I am saying damge per second disappears in pvp, no one has sustained damage if your team is moving and shutting people down, and if they arnt, you deserve to die. sustained damage per second disappears, and you end up more with Seconds that have some damage. Stack up 2 -3 constantly running stacks of soothing stream, and those few seconds with damage mean absolutely nothing. You know it, I know it, Trion knows it, and they made a change. I hope they can figure out a way to make the stacks refresh etc that is workable. I think this is just the common ZOMG MY CLASS IS IN PATCH NOTES AND ITS NOT A HUGE BUFF week for clerics, and in actuality they will be more than fine. Besides, ignore the buff you are getting along side this change moar. Also, 1.6k sp is not r40 gear supported by HK relics that it would take to get to 1.5k sustained dps in a pvp situation, so comeback when it is, k?
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 03-20-2012 at 10:34 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  10. #40
    Champion Bionitro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vihar View Post
    I have a R40 cleric and R 40 mage....something like 300K kills between my toons.

    Stacking HoT's is one of the most broken mechanics in Rift.

    It's not about ONE cleric stacking...it is about 3 or 4 clerics all running warden and stacking HoT's.

    You mentioned 4 DPSers focusing and what DPS they can do.

    How much HPS can 4 wardens put out stacking HoT's on one target? Or a party of 5?

    I can put out some serious single target DPS on my mage (Vengeance + SP = 2200ish)...but against a group with 3 or 4 semi-competent wardens, I can't even make a dent on anyone in the group. The health bar doesn't even move.

    That's a broken mechanic.

    Warden HoT's should overwrite, not stack.

    I am not one of these guys who thinks clerics are OP, and one DPSer should be able to kill a healer, either.

    I actually think clerics are UNDERpowered, except in this one regard.
    I've got news for u... they're supposed to bring down by teamplay... not by 1 R40 mage who has OVER 9000 SP...

    besides dps doesnt work, CC and manadrain is they way u should fight..

    everything I read here is a case of L2P... seriously... clerics aren't OP as u think.. u just need a good setup and decent players who know what they do....




    2 bad Trion can't patch players...


    Brobey, Cleric Healer, EU.

  11. #41
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    If you want to argue in black and white terms, that's also your thing. There's a difference between influencing the outcome and dominating the outcome. Cross healing wardens are easily capable of being the dominating influence in the outcome.

    At the end of the day, you can argue about what "should" be, based on your opinion, until you pass out. The changes are on the PTS. They're there for a reason. Safe bet they're going to go through. And you're going to adapt or ragequit. It doesn't matter.
    I could care less if this goes through or not because frankly I don't enjoy healing. I don't care if they keep nerfing until healers are considered inconsequential. It does however seem a tad strange that DPS classes are tuned to be extremely good at what they're supposed to do while clerics are being nerfed down to the point where they won't be able to keep a single focused target alive with multiple clerics healing said target. Hm.. yah but whatever. It'll be better for 51INQ both in that they won't be asked to heal and that they'll be better at killing. Do you expect PUG healers to have a discussion in real-time during a fight as to who is casting deluge on Fred and who is casting SS and who is casting channeled heals? I don't think this is the right approach. I think DR would be more effective in dealing with this rather than them introducing the problem of healers actually negating one another.
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    I could care less if this goes through or not because frankly I don't enjoy healing. I don't care if they keep nerfing until healers are considered inconsequential. It does however seem a tad strange that DPS classes are tuned to be extremely good at what they're supposed to do while clerics are being nerfed down to the point where they won't be able to keep a single focused target alive with multiple clerics healing said target. Hm.. yah but whatever. It'll be better for 51INQ both in that they won't be asked to heal and that they'll be better at killing. Do you expect PUG healers to have a discussion in real-time during a fight as to who is casting deluge on Fred and who is casting SS and who is casting channeled heals? I don't think this is the right approach. I think DR would be more effective in dealing with this rather than them introducing the problem of healers actually negating one another.
    We just discussed how it doesn't look like healers will be negating each other but hey, if the only way to prop up your argument is to make stuff up and blow things out of proportion, that's what you're going to do. It's cool.

  13. #43
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
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    Whatever dude I didn't start the thread. Feel free to have the win. You're smarter than me. I suck. Uncle. Feel better? Now go make some videos or something useful.
    Formerly Scarecrowe... now Skullcluck. I know, I need to L2P, thanks. Save your breath.
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  14. #44
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Total fail if you believe that HOT stacking is not OP in its current form. I'll post a video that someone posted in warrior forums. This video PROVES HOW OP it can get. This can be used on tank specs of any kind. For example RS/NB Rs/Bard, VK, cloro/doms and locks. This can be used on other wardens and icars even easiler than VK because Vk doesn't have self healing like bluebars do. Actually this can be used on any self healing class more effectively than was portrayed in the video if they have the right spec. So just imagine how effing trolly it can be.

    In this video I'll teach you and whoever views it about the first two clips because the players in this game are very ignorant, especially rogues. Sorry but it is fact.


    In the first clip the Tank is fighting against 2x MM and 51 champion and healer. Now let me explain why these baddies fail at killing the tank..

    MM and champion are physical damage souls. They are using physical damage vs. an SnB warrior which probably has Heal on blocks. His block is high and his mitigation is high. These MM and champ probably have low to 0 hit and because of that they are procing his Heal on block and actually allowing him to last longer. This is not totally the players fault it is partly trions fault too but still L2P.


    They could have just spammed fanout and beat him and the champ should have just switched targets because he is fail and doesn't know how to use his own class. LOL>> After a long battle of LOL baddie play.. a person who can actually beat him comes casting NON physical damage at the tank and he dies easily. He actually dies more easily to mages in a high VK spec than to other classes because again trion shows too much favoritism to blue bars and won't fix Vk to pwn blue bars like it should.

    DUH DUH DUH..L2P play baddies VK is easy...STOP HEALING HIM BADDIES. Use non physical attacks baddies. Learn to use NB/RS or sin since more than half their attacks ignore armor completely and bleeds are 100% armor penetration...OR OR OR get HIT and then kill him. You need like 200 hit to do extremely well with physical damage against a high armor target. In Hk gear you can lol pwn these warriors from 35mm away. 100 hit is enough for most builds though. Another way to deal with this is to be a troll as well. Every class has a troll spec. Warden is in fact one of the best troll specs their is followed by cloro/dom then xx/RS then high VK.

    Now in the second clip check out what the wardens are doing to the VK. You saw how fast the Vk fell once he got hit with pure non physical damage attacks in the first clip. But with wardens stacking heals. He is tanking tons of players both non physical and physical damage and holding them off. Albeit half those players are probably using physical damage with low to 0 hit but it is clear as day in this video that stacking was in fact broken for A LONG Fing TIME. SINCE THE BEGINNING.

    It was actually even more overpowered back then since you didnt even need another warden to stack..you could stack on yourself and tank 5-8 players bunny hopping with A stone in whitefalls with the debuff at max and cap. I use to have old videos from pre 1.4 where clerics were able to run stones in white falls nearly invincible while a full 10-15 player could not kill him SOLO without another healer stacking. Because they also abused using trinkets and greaters and they worked differently at that time. Trust me it happened.

    Here is video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v94kEuVvPn8
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 03-20-2012 at 11:43 AM.

  15. #45
    Ascendant Robes's Avatar
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    The problems with these threads, you can turn them around waaay to easy to be a solid argument for it.
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