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Thread: PVP Needs a better progression model - badly

  1. #31
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf9 View Post
    No, I think it's a bad idea because Rift is a gear based game. Gear progression is fundamental to games like this, as much as if not more so than balance. The carrot is improving gear, to get stronger, and knowing that gear cannot be broken once you get it. These are fundamental things that just won't realistically change in Rift. I'm talking about things that could change.
    Perhaps instead of getting currency marks you get a few mats to craft gear.

    Trust me when I say this. The gear system currently contributes to 1000's of whine posts, in all shapes and sizes. Craftable gear addresses that 99% of the issues.

  2. #32
    Plane Touched
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    Sure that could work fine, but I don't share your confidence that it would put a stop to whining (in this game).

    TBH I think the devs have a target whine level. They want people to care enough, and they want it to be hard enough to get things, that there's some complaining. But not so hard that (most) people don't even try. To start with things are harder to get. Some people will put in the work, get the rewards, be proud. Other people will start on it, flounder, complain. Make it easier = other people happy, first people complain. Release new content, rinse, and repeat. There's some attrition along the way but overall it works.

    So I don't think that a perfectly balanced system where people are content is even what they want. And the game needs a healthy population in each bracket - so it has to cater to both.

  3. #33
    Sword of Telara Sykk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf9 View Post
    So I don't think that a perfectly balanced system where people are content is even what they want. And the game needs a healthy population in each bracket - so it has to cater to both.
    customer relations 101 aside, perfection is unreachable, claiming it's a lack of desire to achieve is simply an excuse not to try

  4. #34
    Ascendant HannonHellbringer's Avatar
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    I don't find much really wrong with this game, should the game improve, yes but it should not take away what it has givn out or players have already earned. Doing so will risk a HUGE walk out of a lot of players just from feeling like they were robbed. Progression is easy in this game, seriously, In 5 days I was already over halfway to 40, 5 F'n days. I understand that not everyone can grind that hard but it goes to show how quick it can go by. If you cannot stand that then your probably either not much of a PvP'r in this game or you don't like MMO grinds, in that case there is not much else Trion can do.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhrawn View Post
    Use survival souls and be a supporter to the R40s on your team.
    This only supports my point. If the only way to gear up in PVP is following around people who already have the gear... something is seriously broken.

    In all fairness, almost every MMO has issues in this same regard. Most of them just downplay the role of gear and make it mostly skill based since they cant properly solve the problem. Across the board nerfs to outgoing healing, etc.

    I dont mind that they made gear so crucial to the PVP landscape, I only mind that there is no gearing up curve. Theres a gearing up a wall. You hit 50 and get thrown in with people running in the best gear in the game.

    If I spec for survival, I'm hitting warriors for 100-200 with my Bolt of Judgement. They also happen to have 11k health, so at that DPS rate I'd need about a minute and a half to kill him. Meanwhile that same warrior can kill me in 3 GCDs. Thats a gear wall if I've ever seen one.

    I say either take the matching system to the next level (matches are 1-10, 10-20, etc, and you can ONLY get into those, it doesnt drop you into a r40 if it thinks it needs the players). Or redo it come up with some sort of scoring system (valor + vengeance = score maybe?). How hard can that be?

  6. #36
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    Have to agree with the OP.

    Perhaps my own situation is a bit biased as I do play a mage. Arguably the worst off class in terms of starting out new. But the problem does exist. For me it is a completely impenetrable wall. It's not fast at all contrary to what many try to make you believe. When you can't kill anyone because you are killed in 2-3 globals you gain prestige and favor at a snails pace.

    I can't get the world dailies done most days as I am a free lunch for every rogue or warrior who wants their 25 kills. I get very little from WF's as I am killed as soon as I leave the respawn point. I am slowly gaining rank and gear but it is not even at half the speed that my rogue and warrior friends I leveled with are progressing. But even they experience near the same things. We have tried to travel in a group for world quests and WF's but those p40 dps just plow right through us and the healers just laugh as they stack their HoT's ignoring our attempts to kill them.

    I can say from experience that it just isn't a fun experience for a new 50 at this point in time.
    Last edited by Ezariel; 03-21-2012 at 07:15 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    No, you suck it up for 3 days and get your gear. Spec for survival when you're at low ranks and as you rank up put more points into healing/dps. Unless you're a Cleric, then you can do pretty much what you want
    You might just be the dumbest person on these forums, thats unless your making a joke then your excused.

    It takes months of non stop ginding in this game to have a complete set of end game PvP gear. Like months playing 8 hours day. If you can only play a couple of hours a night it would probably take someone 7 or 8 months.

    IN three day of straight ginding you might get a couple of pieces of starter gear playing . Stop being an ***.

    You need a minimum of 1200 winning games in WF to start breaking into the Tier 8 crap. The PvP gear grind in this game is beyond belief.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decree View Post
    You might just be the dumbest person on these forums, thats unless your making a joke then your excused.

    It takes months of non stop ginding in this game to have a complete set of end game PvP gear.
    You don't need a complete set of end game PvP gear to be a valuable member of your team.
    Last edited by Baramos; 04-11-2012 at 09:07 PM.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baramos View Post
    You don't need a complete set of end game PvP gear to be a valuable member of your team.
    I would agree but if your not a healer you last about 8 secs in this game against people that do. I was mostly referring to this guys comments that in three days your all set, I prefer to read things that are based in some sort of reality.
    Last edited by Decree; 04-11-2012 at 09:20 PM.

  10. #40
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decree View Post
    I would agree but if your not a healer you last about 8 secs in this game against people that do.
    What class are you?
    ~Quiescent

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by insodus View Post
    I've recently come back to Rift after a very long hiatus. I only have one piece of r1 gear, and the rest is epics from T2 experts.

    I've given it a good month of pvp now, and the situation in there is just ridiculous. Most of the people in warfronts are now in full r40 or at least some r40 some r20 gear. For a new player coming into PvP, they have no chance at all. There is no skill involved there, a r40 player in a decent PvP spec could go 10v1 against fresh 50 players and win without even thinking about it. How is that fun?

    During peak times I rarely will see a rated match for r1-20, but most of those people are full r1 gear also. Which isn't much better; and I only see rated matches one out of every 100 matches or so.

    There really needs to be a decent ranking system, and the queues actually need to use it. I'd rather wait an extra 5 minutes and actually have fun in the warfront then wait 1 minute and then not get a single kill.

    So what is the real progression path here for new PVPers? Just suck it up and get your *** handed to you for 3 months so you can get gear, and then have a shot at some actual PVP? Rift will lose a lot of subscribers if that is the model. Including this one real soon.
    RIFT did lose quite some subs due to the PvP gear progression I suspect. Now things are of course much better than before, but it is kinda too late to attract people back. I have a sub for the last 2 months but I just didn't have the interest to log back in and play.

    My current sub run out in a month, at which point I have to think whether I will re-sub since I probably still won't be playing much. If Trion add new WZ map I might check back in to play some and re-sub for 3 months.

    Guess I am the best customer Trion can have, pay the money but barely play any more.

    I am currently playing SWTOR, mostly doing PvP. It does not take long to gear up in PvP at all, I only play about 2.5 hours a day when I am ranking up my valor rank. It is actually possible for players with job and family to be fairly competitive. In their 1.2 releasing tomorrow, it will be even easier to gear up in PvP. Which I totally welcome, since I can see myself play another class or two to level 50, PvP all the way and it won't be too hard to gear up another character.

    Then GW2 will be released, if it is half as good as people hype it to be, I might drop both SWTOR and RIFT to play it.

    To the guy who said spend 16 hours per day x 3 days to gain a few ranks, not many people in my boat have that kind of time. That 48 hours of yours will take us probably 1 month.

  12. #42
    Telaran
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    All PvP games needs a progression model, a carrot to chace. Look how DAoC did it, gear easily obtainable, only thing that makes the difference between players is their realm rank and skill and a fresh 50 can still kill a maxed out ranked player. Fresh 50s in rift are stupid to up vs a p40 players. imo rift pvp progression needs to be all about getting tougher from active and passive abilityes earned through pvp ranks and realm buffs. Your characters effectiveness ladder from gear makes to much a difference. It doesnt matter if you just won the rift-world championship in pvp and when u come home log in with a tier1 geared toon, a p40 will 2k 2k 2k u in 2-4 gcd and your dead. The individual players experience and know-how should matter alot more from the start of the grind to p40.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghata View Post
    All PvP games needs a progression model, a carrot to chace. Look how DAoC did it, gear easily obtainable, only thing that makes the difference between players is their realm rank and skill and a fresh 50 can still kill a maxed out ranked player. Fresh 50s in rift are stupid to up vs a p40 players. imo rift pvp progression needs to be all about getting tougher from active and passive abilityes earned through pvp ranks and realm buffs. Your characters effectiveness ladder from gear makes to much a difference. It doesnt matter if you just won the rift-world championship in pvp and when u come home log in with a tier1 geared toon, a p40 will 2k 2k 2k u in 2-4 gcd and your dead. The individual players experience and know-how should matter alot more from the start of the grind to p40.
    Which DAOC did you play?
    Even free cost too much now

  14. #44
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    Which DAOC did you play?
    The one that didn't listen to the elitist BS, presumably. DAOC was a great game, but man people got elitist ("zerging", "@ss-jamming", etc...) in that game.

  15. #45
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    Trion did a poor job with gear inflation. I don't think anyone is going to dispute that.

    They've also done loads to level the playing field and/or shorten the grind.

    If you're genuinely struggling as a fresh 50, there's a good chance you're making some serious mistakes.

    First and foremost, are you queuing at the right time aka on the weekends? There are a lot more players pvping fri-sun, which means your odds of landing in a ranked game (no P40s) improve drastically.

    Are you queuing the bonus wf? Double favor/prestige obviously speeds things up.

    Are you vialed? Another huge bonus to favor/prestige puts you in straight warp mode (although I recommend saving the vials for the jump to P25+).

    Are you gearing/spec'ing for survival/support? Dps and heals are all about raw throughput. They will always be dominated by the most geared players. But you don't need loads of sp/ap to crap all over a zerg with mass betrayal or spam erradicate/cleanse or harrass with aoe silence/fear. There are perfectly functional and valuable specs for all four callings at low rank. You just wouldn't classify any of them as "hero" specs. If that's a problem for you, maybe you should stick to non-team games where you are always the hero. You know, single player games.

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