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Thread: Twinks!

  1. #1
    Ascendant nemecis's Avatar
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    Default Twinks!

    Now that I have your attention...

    Dear Trion,
    I personally love the XP lock. I love twinking, I did it long before the XP lock. However, as anyone who's made a post against twinking has likely pointed out, twinks may indeed be detrimental to encouraging new subscriptions. The following is my proposed solution.

    Do not bracket sub 50 PvP - based on gear or XP lock! Personally, I'm not a fan of the job you've done with the 50s, so I have no indication that an amicable solution could be achieved sub 50. Instead, bracket it based on subscription length. I make this suggestion because when I inspect players on my team at the start of a match, it's obvious who is an alt / twink, and who really has no clue.

    For new players this game IS overwhelming. For new players desiring a taste of PvP, twinks exacerbate an already dizzying experience. I also suspect there are some anclilary repercussions of new players being pitted against twinks. There's the obvious discouragement leading to not renewing a subscription; there's the unfortunate decision to leave PvP to 50, where the situation is much worse than pre 50 for undergeared and new players; and finally, perhaps worst of all for the playing community, new players being annihilated by experienced ones (whethere geared or not, twinked or not) generally will not help them grow as a player. This is to say, if you're getting steam-rolled, you don't get time to learn from your mistakes, indeed, you may never even get a chance to learn what mistakes you've made.

    Finally, steam rolling new players who enter WFs in bizzare (by an experienced player's standards) specs, and using items that are several levels out of date, simply isn't fun. I don't want to see seperate WFs for twinks and non-twinks. Honestly, I don't think there's a population to support that kind of divide, and because twinks in my opinion get a bad rap, even a modestly geared player with some know-how can fend off a twink, twinks are not god-mode.

    To reiterate, I believe new players need to be given the opportunity to learn the game as I once did - among players with the same limited experience, and lack of access (knowledge of how to gear mainly) to gear, thus perhaps enhancing their playing experience. You've kept my subscription for over a year ... perhaps those early days played a large role in stengthening my resolve to stick with it.

    Cheers,
    nemecis

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    I disagree

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    Ascendant nemecis's Avatar
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    I can't wait to see what 10 characters you use to make your highly anticipated 4th post.

    Thanks for your considered and constructive feedback.

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    Plane Touched MajorMelchett's Avatar
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    Whilst i agree that a twink isn't god mode, a team of twinks is close to it. If you come up against a number of twinks on the other team and you have none, your not going to win (regardless of it being a pre-made or not).

    As for your idea, i really don't like the sound of it. Personally i just want them to do what Blizzard did after they realised it was putting people of leveling via PVP and turning new PVP players away, seperate locked XP warfronts, either that or make even more brackets - 10-15, 16-19, 20-25, 26-29 etc to cut the devide way down.

    On 50 PVP i've said this for ages, they need to make it so only Rank 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 etc face each other.
    Last edited by MajorMelchett; 03-16-2012 at 07:10 AM.
    Level 50 Mage - Naritta@Icewatch.
    Level 50 Rogue - Naritta@Bloodiron.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Appendy's Avatar
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    PvP is supposed to be competitive. There are tons of resources players can access to help them with becoming more competitive. Aside from the rare hardcore twinks who used 500+ inscribes for planar gear (who I would describe as being borderline griefers), anyone can be JUST AS geared as the average "twink". I understand that people who reroll know the ropes better than someone who just installed the game, but separating everyone by length of sub isn't going to make things better for new players.

    Those who don't lock XP typically level very fast through a combination of WFs, instances, and quests so they make it to 50 relatively fast. For those that level ONLY through PvP, you could argue that they should be expected to put in the effort to learn their class and maximize their gear for their current level. So then they make it to 50 and where there is an even bigger gap of skill/gear. If they are going to unsub because of PvP before level 50, I highly doubt they are going to like the grind to R40. Stop trying to cater to these players, they will never be happy. Go through the forums and see for yourself LOL.

    It's like saying it's not fair that a fresh 50 can't run Hammerknell so we should make HK easy enough for someone in green/blue gears, otherwise people will quit because it's "too hard". You have to put in a bit of work to your game for gear and knowledge of your class/roles.

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    Ascendant Meina's Avatar
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    Quick question...

    What do we do about long term, established players who refuse to gear up even a little bit for low level WF's?

    If you look at these threads you'll see that the bulk of the 'complaints' are not coming from new players. They're coming from established players.

    Even if we bracket by in-game experience (as opposed to experience points) we're still going to see a flood of anti-twink QQ. A lot of people, even experienced players, feel they shouldn't have to put any effort into their gear while leveling.

    I empathize with the truly new players that have problems with twinks. This is the one legit concern about twinks, IMO.

    But, as Appendy pointed out, anyone who is going to rage quit over low level PvP probably isn't going to stay around very long once they hit end game.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appendy View Post
    PvP is supposed to be competitive.
    Are you sure, seems to me my r40 would not get placed in WF with r15s if the intent was competitve PvP, that the queue system would be designed with a 1 or 2 min buffer so teams could be balanced, it seems PvP is simply meant to be bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Appendy View Post
    It's like saying it's not fair that a fresh 50 can't run Hammerknell so we should make HK easy enough for someone in green/blue gears, otherwise people will quit because it's "too hard". You have to put in a bit of work to your game for gear and knowledge of your class/roles.
    Except it isn't, a fresh 50 will be able to enjoy dungeons appropriate to their gear level, the PvP equivlent is actually putting fresh 50s in HK and then being surprised that they state it is not fun and they question which idiot designed this?
    Last edited by Flimble; 03-16-2012 at 09:31 AM.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Appendy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flimble View Post
    Are you sure, seems to me my r40 would not get placed in WF with r15s if the intent was competitve PvP, that the queue system would be designed with a 1 or 2 min buffer so teams could be balanced, it seems PvP is simply meant to be bad.
    No one said the matching system was perfect but the matching system wasn't even implemented when I leveled my rogue, which was my first toon so I had plenty of growing pains doing so. That being said, I did what was needed to remain competitive in both world PvP (on a PvP shard) and war fronts.

    PvP isn't perfect in Rift but there are many of us who make it as fun as we can. I've been here less than a year and have seen Trion make many adjustments from issues that spawned in this forum only for people to unravel all over again. You can't say they aren't listening and trying. If perfect PvP were possible, I'm sure a game would already have it and you (collective) would be there. Remember how many people thought SWTOR was gonna be hot stuff? Yeah.

    I'm sorry but if you want to PvP in Rift it seems you have to go out and earn some battle scars. Most of the R40s right now had to do just that. If it were unbearable I doubt any of us would have ranked up, so someone has been having fun (points to self).


  9. #9
    Plane Walker Ashrai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appendy View Post

    I'm sorry but if you want to PvP in Rift it seems you have to go out and earn some battle scars. Most of the R40s right now had to do just that. If it were unbearable I doubt any of us would have ranked up, so someone has been having fun (points to self).

    ^^ This.

    Many of us (the ones that aren't in intensive therapy that is) began ranking up when there was no matching, no boosting, no queue tweaks, etc. You'd be Rank 1 facing true premades of Rank 6 players that would steamroll for HOURS on their clusters.

    You've heard of "uphill in the snow, both ways"? We had to MAKE our own snow, and BUILD our own hill.

    New PVPers have things a million times better than we did.
    Ashrai@Deepwood
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  10. #10
    Ascendant nemecis's Avatar
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    I don't disagree with any of you to be honest.

    I am perfectly happy with the way things are. With that said however, I'm seeking to see the other side of the argument. In doing so, I've attempted to empathize with a new player, fresh out of the newbie zone, just got their "ding lvl 10" achieve, and wades into their first WF.

    I'm all for the "school of hard knocks" approach to PvP, but for this subset, I can see it being a bit much to handle.

    Others would have all XP locked players in thier own brackets. I'm not a fan of this, since I strongly believe that queue times have been vastly improved with the introduction of XP locking. Almost any form of bracketing undermines what I believe was Trion's driving motive ... that is, decreasing queue times.

    Would new players see longer queue times? Sure they would, but the alternative is faster queue times with players vastly superior in any combination of skill / knowledge / gear.

    What this system attempts to achieve is to offer new players some refuge from the steam-roll, while not taking away the fast queue times that XP locking has introduced. As for existing players who chose to level an alt via PvP - it's a school of hard knocks folks. You have the resources and knowledge to gear up just like the twinks, if you choose not to, that's your choice, but it isn't a legitimate reason to disallow or segregate twinks.

    The ONLY justification I've seen in "anti-twink" threads that makes any sense is that twinking may deter new players from subscribing. While I like to give more credit to players in general, "fun" is operative word, and I think we could agree that for most, getting steam rolled while learning isn't very fun. As a result, if there is a case to be made for the segregation of sub 50 WFs, I suggest it be the one in my OP, and not a twink / non twink separation --- simply put, there isn't a large enough playing population in my opinon to support this separation.

  11. #11
    Ascendant nemecis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashrai View Post
    ^^ This.

    Many of us (the ones that aren't in intensive therapy that is) began ranking up when there was no matching, no boosting, no queue tweaks, etc. You'd be Rank 1 facing true premades of Rank 6 players that would steamroll for HOURS on their clusters.

    You've heard of "uphill in the snow, both ways"? We had to MAKE our own snow, and BUILD our own hill.

    New PVPers have things a million times better than we did.
    Just because we had to walk both ways up hill, doesn't mean others should / need to. You also presume that the 2 situations are more similar then they are.

    When I was leveling, players in your bracket were not better geared / more knowledable sub 50 ... because there were no "mains", we were all learning to play at the same time. When I was leveling and starting PvP, GSB hadn't yet been realeased, P6 was the max rank, and few were in better than blues and a hand full of purples.

    For low levels, world even items did not exist to the extend they do now (indeed at first none existed), easy access to lvl 300 epic augments was also VERY rare, so too were max level runes (people hadn't yet earned them).

    you're right, we build the hill, which meant when we climbed it, the hill was smaller than it is today. May take less time traversing the hill, but it doesn't mean it's not a daunting task.

    It's all relative .. and your experience took place at a different point in Rift's progression as a game. A new players experience is relative to the current state of the game.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appendy View Post
    You can't say they aren't listening and trying.
    I agree Trion does listen, however I also think they have a habit of papering over the cracks as it were and in the case of PvP by the time they responded with even the measures they have (removing first rank of gear, smoothing out PvP weapon progression, etc), it was months too late and they had lost an awful lot of players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Appendy View Post
    If perfect PvP were possible, I'm sure a game would already have it and you (collective) would be there. Remember how many people thought SWTOR was gonna be hot stuff? Yeah.
    I am sure perfect PvP is impossible, however I'd settle for competitive PvP and a game that simply doesn't try and clone previous MMO PvP failures, in nearly every MMORPG PvP dies a death (Rift is no exception, PvP is moribund (thank you Steve Coogan)), yet zillions of people continue to play DOTAs, RTS, FPS, etc.

    As for SWTOR the only people I know who were particularly excited about it were SW fans or Bioware fans, most PvPers I know what not expecting a lot, merely something to try out as Rift PvP is not that great in many respects (balance, less PvP content after a year than some other games have on launch, etc).

    The only game that I see an interest in from lots of PvPers is GW2 and guess why, it is attempting to make a game which puts good PvP before the outdated done to death PvE mindset of huge gear progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Appendy View Post
    I'm sorry but if you want to PvP in Rift it seems you have to go out and earn some battle scars. Most of the R40s right now had to do just that. If it were unbearable I doubt any of us would have ranked up, so someone has been having fun (points to self).
    Erm, as I said I already have an r40, it doesn't stop my r40 being put in with low ranks, nor for that matter does it stop my r40 being put in to totally unbalanced "matched" r25-r40 WF where one side has mostly players near r40 and the other side mostly near r25.

    Being able to walk off and make a cup of coffee whilst I wait for the score to get to 1000 in codex as my team spawn camps the other side is not my idea of good PvP, it is dire and it is entirely down to Trion's failure to put any sort of balacing in, something whch should be perfectly possible with mercs.
    Last edited by Flimble; 03-16-2012 at 11:59 AM.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara
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    "Hi, I couldn't compete in the 50s bracket so I have been twinking for a long time, please don't remove twinking or make me have to play against other twinks, then I wouldn't have an edge!"

    OP paraphrased.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched
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    PvP is supposed to be competetive, people could do ____ etc.
    So why be overgeared not undergeared, or max level not mid level for the tier? Every twink stacks the odds heavily in their favor. Stacking the odds makes the game less competetive.

    The less geared, less experienced players with less points spent are supposed to learn all sorts of things, but the xp locked people are not putting their money where their mouth is. Why be 49 not 50? They are choosing to play only in an environment where they have the advantage of gear and experience.

    Show me someone who's exp locked at 45, or someone who is exp locked with unremarkable gear. Someone who is proving how their skill makes a difference.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Kiminski's Avatar
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    There's really no argument here. Anything that has the potential to put off new subscribers needs to be stopped fast. It's not even liketwinks are the majority, I think most people are pretty fed up with them. It's just 1 or 2 people per WF ruining everyone's fun.

    My only solution would be to make PvE gear completely useless in PvP and introduce easily obtainable low level PvP sets instead. I'd love to experience some warfronts with everyone wearing the same gear. Save the pimping for level 50!
    Last edited by Kiminski; 03-16-2012 at 02:49 PM.

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