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Thread: Why does every Warfront depend on how many healing clerics you have?

  1. #16
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetlebomb View Post
    And yeah you can win with a coordinated team with some good mage healing, but nothing compares to a healing cleric.

    You are correct, nothing compares to a 'good' healing cleric.

    However there are some very good healing mages out there, unfortunately chloro doesnt translate to PvP anywhere near as well as the Cleric healing souls.

    People play to their preference. I know a very good cleric, who is a very good PvP healer, but she wont run heals in a PuG WF because of all the QQ and abuse from people who think she can heal everyone AND be in 7 places on the map at once, while being dps'd by 4 of the opposing team, while being squirreled, silenced and stunned.

    Its the way things are going to be until people actually start to appreciate good healers. I see 'Junk healer you let me die' far more often than 'Thanks for the heals'. Reversing that is the start of the soloution to getting more people willing to heal.

  2. #17
    Sword of Telara Wawer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetlebomb View Post
    Those screenshots show:

    1. Top healing wins warfronts, which is my main contention

    and

    2. 6 healing mages and 2 bards can be better at healing than 2 clerics. That doesn't mean that clerics are supremely powerful.
    Then why are you not doing TOP heal as a mage, or as a bard?
    If you are not a warrior, please don't QQ on heal.
    Well even if you are a warrior, you can survive without heal in proper spec.
    Look at the chart, look at the dmg some of the dps do as compare to the bard or chloro.
    Most of them do even less dmg than my bard.
    Last edited by Wawer; 03-05-2012 at 04:47 AM.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kok View Post
    Then why are you not doing TOP heal as a mage, or as a bard?
    If you are not a warrior, please don't QQ on heal.
    Well even if you are a warrior, you can survive without heal in proper spec.
    Look at the chart, look at the dmg some of the dps do as compare to the bard or chloro.
    Most of them do even less dmg than my bard.
    The more healers you have, the better everyone does, both at dps and at healing, because they're alive longer.

    So yeah, if you have 8 healers (6 mage healers and 2 bards), they'll probably be able to put out more healing than 2 clerics.

    And dps is largely reliant on healing.

    Just as one example to counter your 2, out of hundreds I could think of, I just played a game tonight where we had one cleric healer (typical for defiant) and the guards had 4. Almost our entire team was wiped out in the first encounter.

    If you looked at the dps at that point, and disregarded healing, you might think well geez, those guardian dps are just way better than the defiant. But what made them better was the extra cleric healers.

    Cleric healing in WFs is basically as important as having a main healer in experts. You can't start a random expert without a main healer, but you can, if you're on defiants side, start a random wf without one, and you'll lose, which happens often.

    I'm not proposing a nerf to healing. What I am proposing is adjusting the game so that warfronts are more about the skill and gear of ALL the players and less about how many healing clerics your team happens to have. I'm not sure exactly how to go about doing that, but something should be done.

  4. #19
    Telaran Curuca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetlebomb View Post
    I'm not proposing a nerf to healing. What I am proposing is adjusting the game so that warfronts are more about the skill and gear of ALL the players and less about how many healing clerics your team happens to have. I'm not sure exactly how to go about doing that, but something should be done.
    I am Cleric, and I always play as a healer.

    I am not the best Healer, but I think I'm not a bad healer, and believe me, to win a BG it's not a matter of how many healers you have, It's a matter of Good DPS + Good CC + Good healing. You can be 80% of healers, but, if you don't have a good DPS, nothing to do.

    I have been deleted in seconds in a WF with 5 healers, cause there was a really good coordinated Premade that select the best target, and the whole BG Focus on that target.

    Maybe we have to realize that to win a Bg is not a matter of how much damage or healing i can do, it's a matter of how good I can play as a team.
    Last edited by Curuca; 03-05-2012 at 05:16 AM.
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  5. #20
    Ascendant Ailene's Avatar
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    Of course the winning team most likely have most healing done. If you don't get to kill the healers, they heal more then the healers that are getting killed over and over again. Too many people find some weird joy in hitting the warriors/rogues in front instead of the healers behind them. This makes the thinking team able to kill the other team's healers, and make them do less heal while the winning team's healers stay alive and also get the heal numbers up because of the damage done on the players in front.

    I'm not saying that there is no unbalanced matches, cause they happen every now and then. But some times I also think people are just looking for an excuse for why they lost.

  6. #21
    Ascendant Byona's Avatar
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    So you are saying the team with dps+healing is better than the team with dps only? isnt that obvious?

    nerfing cleric healing even more to the point where dps > dps+heal = Delete Cleric healers, so we can have dps Vs dps. that is not the solution.

    And by the way, like many have pointed out already dps is equally important, you have no idea how annoying it is to have terrible dpsers which is very common in our EU cluster. Healing =/= win, say the guardians have 1 healer, the defiants have 3 healers, according to you the defiants win because they have more healing. on many occasions i look at the scoreboard those 3 defiant healers do 200k hps each and the 1 guardian healer did say 200k hps aswell, thats 600k vs 200k, yet the guardian win. because dear god some people need to learn to dps, you look at the dps meter top 5 are guardians with say 200k dps each, then few defiants with 80k each etc.. how much healing do you think is required to carry those players? its simply impossible and they complain how healing is OP after that because they couldnt kill the guardians? please...
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  7. #22
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    The point is, you need both good healing and good DPS to win. Obvious, right?

    And ultimately, Clerics make the best AOE and ST healers in PvP. Between 3 healing souls and one support soul (Justicar), a cleric player has tremedously more tools available to build a more powerful healing machine than any other calling.

    Many Clerics, however, wish that wasn't so...because we're constantly yelled at to "go heals!" AND we'll never be on par with other classes when it comes to DPS. It's a double-edge sword for us.

  8. #23
    Sword of Telara Wawer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetlebomb View Post
    The more healers you have, the better everyone does, both at dps and at healing, because they're alive longer.

    So yeah, if you have 8 healers (6 mage healers and 2 bards), they'll probably be able to put out more healing than 2 clerics.

    And dps is largely reliant on healing.

    Just as one example to counter your 2, out of hundreds I could think of, I just played a game tonight where we had one cleric healer (typical for defiant) and the guards had 4. Almost our entire team was wiped out in the first encounter.

    Cleric healing in WFs is basically as important as having a main healer in experts. You can't start a random expert without a main healer, but you can, if you're on defiants side, start a random wf without one, and you'll lose, which happens often.
    http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/y...-01_120816.jpg
    You mean this WF? The guardian dominate the heal chart , all top 5 healer is theirs but somehow THEY DID NOT WIN.
    Based on your theory, there is no way we could win with a cleric healer that heal less than a dps bard against 6 cleric healer
    Deepstrike:Gintoki cleric r47 Shinpachi warrior r46, Kayura rogue r50, Tsukuyo mage r47
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  9. #24
    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    As a healing cleric, the OP has things completely backwards. Winning a WF depends on how many pure DPS you have. Healers just get in the way these days and Trion has finally achieved a genuine gibfest for pvp.
    Last edited by Trisian; 03-05-2012 at 09:51 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kok View Post
    Maybe it's because I'm a statistics nerd but you really can't use 2 data points to define a population as large as what we're talking about here.

  11. #26
    Plane Walker Azchire's Avatar
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    A good healer is only as good as the dps on his team. I primarily heal in warfronts, and when the dps on my team are just dismal, we stay alive, but we don't kill anything. If we can't kill anything we can't complete warfront objectives effectively. This is the point where I switch to an inquisicar spec and easily top damage AND healing. And I'll tell you, with Mein of Honor up, an inquisicar's dps is pretty bad, so if I'm topping damage, something's wrong.

    To those saying that one class shouldn't make such a difference, remember that there are only 4 classes. Rift doesn't really work that way though... There are 8 souls per class, and each soul is kind of a class of it's own. There are a total of 6 healing souls in Rift:

    Warden
    Purifier
    Sentinel
    Justicar (-icar specs may as well be healing specs)
    Chloromancer
    Bard

    So, 66% of all the healing souls in Rift belong to Clerics. When you talk about "healing" you're almost always talking about healing clerics because that's their primary style, just as warriors tank, rogues dps, and mages support.

    All that said, I think Chloromancers really need some love, and Bards should be able to bring more to PvP than they currently do.
    Last edited by Azchire; 03-05-2012 at 11:15 AM.

  12. #27
    Rift Chaser Ming's Avatar
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    Everything that needs to be said has been said but I'll say it again.

    The OP's premise is that the healing cleric as a class is too significant to the outcome of WF's; that no one class should be this powerful. To anyone who subscribes to this notion I IMPLORE you to please try playing a healing cleric. It's no picnic let me tell you. Try healing #$#$ IDIOTS as your Rift job.. weeefun.

    Typical scenario: Head out with 5 DPS. Meet up with enemy who outnumbers you but manage to pull off some amazing healing and defeat the enemy group. Just as everyone is mounting up a rogue AS/RS unstealths and starts wailing away on your back while your entire team rides away. You hold him off for ~30 seconds even though he's ripping you a new one and eventually some little pew pew comes along and helps him kill you. The people who rode off go get killed immediately.

    I've been in many a garden bout with several healers with the enemy having minimal if any healing and lost. It only works until you lose the fang and then guess what..okay I'll tell you. You can't heal it back again. You can keep your crappy DPS up all day long but if they can't kill the enemy because they're all hitting individual targets instead of focusing or not waiting after death for a coordinated regrouping... running back in an endless suicide loop, etc. Then I've immediately re-queued into essentially the same group and gone DPS cleric and where we won. There's a balance always to be reached between damage output and healing.

    Bottom line.. it's about playing smart. If it ever comes to the point where everyone on both teams is playing smart then this conversation won't even come up because smart players will understand role of "healing" in coordinated PvP.
    Last edited by Ming; 03-05-2012 at 11:22 AM.
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  13. #28
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    Good DPS and/or smart play can over ride the idea that warfronts are won because of clerics. For example: 1 Dom can make a use difference when you are facing a team with a number of healers. I have won some wfs where we were lower on healers and just over came it with good dps and strategy.

  14. #29
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Funny, it's usually the fail dps that causes my losses, even when our team has the most heals ;[


    You should be saying:
    Teachmehowtodeeps~

  15. #30
    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Funny, it's usually the fail dps that causes my losses, even when our team has the most heals ;[


    You should be saying:
    Teachmehowtodeeps~
    A MEN BROTHA.

    I leave most of my WFs not because I can't keep people up, but because our DPS are such morons they can't focus a target to save their lives.

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