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Thread: Mercs and Deserters

  1. #1
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    Default Mercs and Deserters

    This is a new thread related in some way to mercs, but I don't think this has come up before.

    I just got out of a WS match where we had a Defiant mercenary mage on our team. When the Defiant managed to capture our stone to make the score 1-0, this mage left the warfront. Several minutes later, they were back in the warfront only this time they were on the Defiant team. They ended up topping KBs and damage done in a 3-0 flattening of the Guardians. I'm 100% confident it was the same person who left our team as the guy who showed up on the other team.

    To me, that's just garbage. I don't care about what whiners and poor sports want. I want people held to a higher standard of sportsmanship than this nonsense. You queue for a warfront, you know you could wind up on either team, and you stay and help the team you're assigned to or you get a debuff when you bail. I don't care if you bug out, Soul Recall out, 'Leave Warfront', unplug your modem...it doesn't matter to me. I'm already seeing way too many Guardians on my own team bailing on matches and leaving their team shorthanded because they get mad, and then 20 minutes later, there they are in another match waiting to quit...again.

    If you want to be able to opt out of the mercenary system, that's your opinion. Trion has no doubt heard the feedback by now. Whether they change it from what it is now to an opt out system, I don't know. What I do know is that there's no goddam excuse for the way people are abusing the system now, and I think it's time to drop the hammer on them. Enough catering to the whiners already. 1hr debuff for bailing on a match when you're in as a merc sounds about right to me.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    What happened was the stars aligned. He had his 1 hour soul recall up and he que'd perfectly after someone probably evened your team thus then the defiant would grab another, which was him. It's not like....you can do this over and over. You only can have so much soul recall and luck.

    Lol I mean, it is kinda a smack in the face but...he really did just get lucky. That isn't something you can probably do successfully 5 times in a row. And you can only try it once an hour.

    If they want to get rid of scott free bailers it's really simple. Make soul recall not work in warfronts. Done. Any leave is a debuff. The PA calls don't work in WF's, make the soul recall not work. Despite being guilty of using it I would not be bothered either by this change.
    Last edited by Violacea; 02-20-2012 at 08:04 PM.
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    As far as I know, all of the bail out options you mention incur at least a 15 minute debuff. The one exception might be soul recall.

    That being said, getting back into another match 20 minutes later is perfectly legit, and acceptable, IMO. They've chosen to opt out of being a merc (as many a pro-merc player has suggested) and taken their debuff like a man. In essence, they've already paid the fine for not wanting to play as a merc.

    You cannot force people to play the game. They either do or they don't. The one exception to this would be actively leeching off the system (i.e. AFK'ing). At least the people your talking about have opted to take a hike, eat the debuff and free up a slot on your team for someone who might actually help your team.

    "1hr debuff for bailing on a match when you're in as a merc sounds about right to me. "

    That would be the quickest way to alienate even more paying customers. People are already upset with the system. Adding further punitive (and vindictive) punishment to the system will do nothing more than push these people further away from the game.

    Oh, and what Violacea said.
    Last edited by Meina; 02-20-2012 at 08:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meina View Post
    As far as I know, all of the bail out options you mention incur at least a 15 minute debuff. The one exception might be soul recall.

    That being said, getting back into another match 20 minutes later is perfectly legit, and acceptable, IMO. They've chosen to opt out of being a merc (as many a pro-merc player has suggested) and taken their debuff like a man. In essence, they've already paid the fine for not wanting to play as a merc.
    There were two issues I was commenting on. One was a passing reference to the Guardians who are just dropping from warfronts in significant numbers. I don't find it acceptable for people to just leave their team shorthanded in one match and then be back in another match 20 minutes later set to do it again. You screwed over your team once, they struggled through the match shorthanded waiting for someone to replace you, and the next match you're back again. BS. You bail? Go take a break for an hour. Next time, you'll think twice about buggering off instead of just sacking up and playing through the match.

    The other was the reference to the guy leaving a match as a merc and immediately rejoining on the other team. I realize it was a certain amount of "luck" at play, but it still pisses me off. He's in the match on our team, at the first sign things aren't going well he bails on us, and a couple of minutes later he's back in the match on the other team scoring a win? BS. Absolute BS.

    You queue for a warfront, you're in that warfront doing your best until the match is over. You bail? Debuff. 15 minutes doesn't cut it anymore. You don't contribute? Reported AFK and booted. If people don't want to PvP, nobody is forcing them to PvP. If they don't like the way PvP is working out, they have the option to not queue and send feedback to Trion about why they're unhappy. I'm tired of pre-adolescent crybabies screwing their whole team over because they got blown up or because they've got the wrong icon next to their portrait. Cater to the baddies. Cater to the whiners. Whatever. But there's a line between being an awful whiner and being a poor sport that has a willfully negative impact on the other people on your team, its not acceptable to cross that line, and it damn well needs to be reinforced.
    Last edited by Licentia; 02-20-2012 at 09:00 PM.

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    Ascendant Meina's Avatar
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    As Violacea pointed out (and I didn't feel needed repeating), the guy who swapped teams got extremely lucky. He has no control over whether or not he would end up in the same match like he did.

    As for bailing in a WF, I'm of two minds on this.

    I have little tolerance for people who bail on a match just because their losing. If they've been saddled with a group of complete incompetents, and everyone is running around willy nilly, ignoring objectives and/or just farming kills, maybe their a little justified. But, if the team you're on is trying to win and is playing at least somewhat competently, you should stick around, do your best to help your team and eat the loss if you end up losing.

    Bailing just because you're losing, to me, ranks right up there with throwing a tantrum. It smacks of "I'm taking my ball and my glove and I'm going home!".

    Now, leaving because you were assigned as a merc, against your will, to me is another matter. Trion is forcing people to play the game in a way that they do not enjoy. As such, people have chosen to take a number of actions to deal with this. By simply leaving the WF, taking the debuff voluntarily and waiting for the next match they've decided to take the only legitimate option available to avoid being a merc, outside of completely avoiding WF's altogether. The alternative would be to hang around and, at best, play halfheartedly. At worst they could simply AFK their way through the WF.

    In short, the people who leave a WF because they don't want to merc are taking the most legit option Trion currently gives them.

    Back to the guy who swapped teams...

    Are you sure he left because he was merced, or did he leave because he was on the losing team? This might actually have nothing to do with the merc system.
    Last edited by Meina; 02-20-2012 at 09:51 PM.

  6. #6
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Xillean's Avatar
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    You shouldn't be allowed to bail on a match period, for any reason. Soul Recall needs to be fixed to not work in a wf. As far as what happened I feel for you, that is incredible luck on his part and horrible luck for you guys. But I will say merc or not he could have been a def, seen his team get a stone stolen, bail and requed and ended up as a guard and won, just because he was a merc doesn't mean it was for that reason he bailed, sounds like he bailed because he thought it was gg since most times whoever gets the first one wins.

    Its not right and no matter the reason you shouldn't be able to bail as I said earlier but just saying you cant assume it was because he was a merc. Now onto the rest of your post, I for one whole heartily agree that if your voted afk or bail manually (soul recall, hit the leave warfront, etc) you should be heavily penalized, 1 hr debuff is fine to me. Cant be on a discontent though sometimes your net just craps out on you and that would cause more strife then fix imo.

    There have been a few times Ive been a defiant merc with defiants I absolutely loath, want nothing to do with and would rather kill. However that being said I do whats right and do my 100 best to win the match, heal my rear off, anything possible regardless that im with some people I dislike. Not going to punish every defiant I ever see because a few of them are idiots. I don't know why people cant accept: Red is dead, and just pew pew on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meina View Post
    I have little tolerance for people who bail on a match just because their losing. If they've been saddled with a group of complete incompetents, and everyone is running around willy nilly, ignoring objectives and/or just farming kills, maybe their a little justified. But, if the team you're on is trying to win and is playing at least somewhat competently, you should stick around, do your best to help your team and eat the loss if you end up losing.
    I've gone up against this guy. He tends to play pyro/dom and he does a pretty darn good job of keeping his opponents shut down. He could have contributed to a win, but he chose to bail. And because of the merc system, it worked out just ducky for him. Prior to the merc system, it would have been a pretty risky maneuver to blow your Soul Recall and re-queue right away because you could just get stuck back in the same match. But because of the merc system his chances of getting put into a different match or the same match on the other team were pretty good. 2 in 3 odds that bailing without the debuff would work out for him, and that needs to not happen anymore.

    Now, leaving because you were assigned as a merc, against your will, to me is another matter. Trion is forcing people to play the game in a way that they do not enjoy. As such, people have chosen to take a number of actions to deal with this. By simply leaving the WF, taking the debuff voluntarily and waiting for the next match they've decided to take the only legitimate option available to avoid being a merc, outside of completely avoiding WF's altogether. The alternative would be to hang around and, at best, play halfheartedly. At worst they could simply AFK their way through the WF.
    And my response to that is the same as my response to anyone else who tries to rationalize why it's okay to screw over whatever team they're on because they're mad at the devs. If you don't like the system, send the devs your feedback and don't participate. I don't accept that the merc system is rationalization to be a poor sport. Actions speak louder than words. I'm tired of seeing people bail on matches before they even start and then it takes a few minutes to get replacements in. Thanks for screwing us over and leaving us shorthanded to start the match. Now we're stuck playing catchup because you're mad at Trion? BS.

    In short, the people who leave a WF because they don't want to merc are taking the most legit option Trion currently gives them.
    The most legit option is to not queue.

    Are you sure he left because he was merced, or did he leave because he was on the losing team? This might actually have nothing to do with the merc system.
    Let's not get confused here. I'm not saying he left because he was merced. I'm saying he left. He left when we were losing. Then he rejoined on the other team and scored a win. That's all I'm saying. I don't care why he left. I don't care if he left because he got a taste of the atrocious badism Guardians have to put up with day after day, or if he left because the Defiants scored, or he left because he suddenly realized he was a merc. It doesn't matter. The point is that the system as it currently stands allowed him to directly and immediately benefit from bailing on one team, and it needs to change.

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    I personally would prefer to not have the chance of being a mercenary. I'd be more than happy to check a box to avoid being a mercenary. I find when you give people a choice, they tend to be much happier.

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    I won't play for defiants if I can help it. So if my soul recall is up and I que in mercenary I will immediately recall out. Yes I think it is completely wrong to wait till the your team is losing to leave I won't do that I leave Immediately. Since I usually don't get merc'd more then once an hour this is our only option of opting out of mercing. Some of the worst matches I've had recently have been mercenary matches this is why I won't play for the other side. They don't know me and if they do know me won't support me simple as that. I've even been trash talked by team mates when merc'd so yet again not gonna deal with the childish crap if there is something I can do about it. My soul recall is strictly used now for leaving merc matches. I have gloamwood and ember isle port for any other pve time I need to port. If trion does not want this to happen they can either 1) fix soul recall to not work in warfronts 2) give us an option to opt out of mercing. Till then this is our only option.

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    Baddie this, baddie that, baddies up in my grill.
    There once was a bad so bad that it was a bad case of the bad. In short, it was all bad, all the time. Bad, bad, bad, mad cause bad, bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Rogues are completly fine to be honest.
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    please stop qq about nerfs because i promise if u keep it up rift will shut down because they have no subribers and we will have wasted our money on a failed game simply because everyone was acting like little kids because they couldnt faceroll anyone and it actually took effort to kill them

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    I wish I could check a box to avoid paying taxes...I'd be much happier =p

    Honestly, I wish there was no faction divide. In EQ, I had a dark elf shadow knight and a high elf cleric; they hated each others guts but still fought side by side. WTB more of that action…but until then, it is what it is!

    Strap on the big girl/boy pants and get over it.

    Maybe if the whining and crying tantrum continues we might just get a cute little "kitty" box to opt out. (BOO HISS)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
    I personally would prefer to not have the chance of being a mercenary. I'd be more than happy to check a box to avoid being a mercenary. I find when you give people a choice, they tend to be much happier.
    I agree.

    Mercs are an ok band-aid for impatient kiddies but give people the option not to merc. I have no problems leaving a WF when I didn't end up on the side I originally queued for.

  13. #13
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    Implying people who are pro merc are kids, classy.
    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Rogues are completly fine to be honest.
    Quote Originally Posted by pro
    please stop qq about nerfs because i promise if u keep it up rift will shut down because they have no subribers and we will have wasted our money on a failed game simply because everyone was acting like little kids because they couldnt faceroll anyone and it actually took effort to kill them

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    Ascendant Meina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    I've gone up against this guy. He tends to play pyro/dom and he does a pretty darn good job of keeping his opponents shut down. He could have contributed to a win, but he chose to bail. And because of the merc system, it worked out just ducky for him. Prior to the merc system, it would have been a pretty risky maneuver to blow your Soul Recall and re-queue right away because you could just get stuck back in the same match. But because of the merc system his chances of getting put into a different match or the same match on the other team were pretty good. 2 in 3 odds that bailing without the debuff would work out for him, and that needs to not happen anymore.
    So there is a downside to the merc system. Go figure.


    And my response to that is the same as my response to anyone else who tries to rationalize why it's okay to screw over whatever team they're on because they're mad at the devs. If you don't like the system, send the devs your feedback and don't participate. I don't accept that the merc system is rationalization to be a poor sport. Actions speak louder than words. I'm tired of seeing people bail on matches before they even start and then it takes a few minutes to get replacements in. Thanks for screwing us over and leaving us shorthanded to start the match. Now we're stuck playing catchup because you're mad at Trion? BS.
    Obviously I disagree.

    The most legit option is to not queue.
    Okay, you got me with that one. We'll call leaving the WF, as long as it's at the beginning of the match, the second most legit option.

    The problem is that, for a lot of people, PvP is their primary focus. If they stop queuing completely, why continue to pay for the game?

    And, if enough people do stop queuing, whether they've left he game or not, there will be an impact on queue times.

    Personally, I don't see a big problem with people leaving a WF if they do it at the very beginning of the battle. Doing so will have much less of an impact on the team's performance because they should get a replacement fast enough to make that person leaving pretty much a non-issue.

    Now, if they're leaving half way through, or even 5 minutes in, then there's a problem. The sudden void and the confusion caused be a replacement zoning in mid-battle can have an impact on your game (not that there's a whole lot of cohesion and coordination in most WF's to begin with). If it's limited to one person it's not as big a deal, but if they're leaving in groups it pretty much becomes gg.
    Let's not get confused here. I'm not saying he left because he was merced. I'm saying he left. He left when we were losing. Then he rejoined on the other team and scored a win. That's all I'm saying. I don't care why he left. I don't care if he left because he got a taste of the atrocious badism Guardians have to put up with day after day, or if he left because the Defiants scored, or he left because he suddenly realized he was a merc. It doesn't matter. The point is that the system as it currently stands allowed him to directly and immediately benefit from bailing on one team, and it needs to change.
    See my previous post.

    If he's leaving just because you were losing (which is what we've established), hang him, especially if it's mid-battle (which it was).

    I also think soul recall should have the same debuff as everything else. I can't see the reasoning of applying a penalty for leaving a WF early, and then giving people a get out of debuff free card every third or fourth match.

    I'd also support stiffer penalties for people who leave mid battle. The best I've come up with, that doesn't screw over the innocent, is to make the debuff escalate. Each time you bail on a battle, the debuff becomes 15 minutes longer. Bail once = 15 minutes, bail twice = 30 minutes, bail thrice = 45 minutes and so on.

    This increase will stay in effect until you go for a specific amount of time, say 24 hours, without earning a debuff (i.e. bailing on a battle).

    This should handle the people that habitually bail on losing matches while, at the same time, not overly punishing people that have to bail for legit reasons (i.e. having to deal with the kids, wife aggro, answering the door, etc.)
    Last edited by Meina; 02-21-2012 at 07:35 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digits View Post
    Implying people who are pro merc are kids, classy.
    I play Pyro/dom and I do this soul recall and hope I get onto a defiant team. I really hate playing as guardian and don't like being forced to do it. I actually like getting to know some of the players that you team with as well. Now it's like a free for all scramble and it's lost the competative spirit for me. I really enjoy killing guardians and dwarves

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