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Thread: So let me get this straight!

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    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    Default So let me get this straight!

    For all the whining I have seen lately about pvp, most of it is centered around rogues and mages being effective damage dealers in pvp. A brief background of myself with this game and it's content, I'm a hardcore pvper, that also raid on a weekly basis. Yes we down Akylios every Thursday night, that's all fine with me, but I also love to pvp, and I participate when I'm not asked to raid pve content.

    Rogues for the past 9 months since this game was launched in a pvp setting were nothing more than a minor speed bump for just about every class in this game, after 1.5, the changes made them more effective in pvp, but according to the dev's were too strong in pvp, hence the electrified munitions nerf. Ok that's fine, rogues took a back seat to warrior/Mage pve dps and still are being brought to pve encounters for their utility and dps contribution, even though it's not considered the top of the charts compared to their other physical dps brethren the warrior.

    Now all that's fine, there are very competitive builds rogues have available to them that will put them in close comparison to warriors single target dps. We rogues took the changes and rolled with it, being satisfied to be at least the 3rd best damage dealer in the game, and dead last in AoE raid damage.

    Now let's look at pvp, rogues have a few builds depending on the situation that makes them a good addition to a variety of scenarios in pvp. The first build I see being brought up is the nightblade/Riftstalker combination, this gives the rogue optimal mobility uptime while affording good damage whilst also carrying a heal debuff that will pressure a competent equally geared healer assuming equal gear/skill.

    Marksman is next up in a pvp setting that offers the greatest team utility and dps asset in pvp, again, a skilled marksman complement a balanced pvp group. And lastly the Assassin build, which for all intents and purposes, does not offer the greatest team contribution, but a good one versus one opponent that should be feared but can be dealt with by equally skilled/geared adversaries.

    So the breakdown so far about the rogue calling in a pvp scenario, they have 3 viable offensive builds that based on composition, and goal of a particular pvp setting, can and will enjoy good measures of success and offer the calling a variety that will appease most gamers that enjoy RIFT pvp content, it being team or solo play.

    Ok, that being out of the way, when it comes to pvp, no game in existence to this day has ever successfully balanced it's product around solo pvp interactions, there is a reason most modern and past massively multiplayer role playing games are designed and structured around a social interaction and gathering. It's to facilitate the necessary "TEAM" effort that is required in anything in life to accomplish objectives and goals. Nothing in this world is achievable by a single individual, it takes my guild 20 patient, focused, and dedicated people to adhere to a schedule on a weekly basis to successfully clear the Hammerknell raid content, which we do with much enjoyment every week, and we're rewarded with items for our efforts, and the self recognition that we can pull together as a guild every day to accomplishing this goal.

    With that said, pvp in this game was never marketed as solo content, but everyone lately has been labeling it as such, and to my personal experience in any game to this date, is not to be, and never will be labeled solo content. With that being said, rather than everyone that was killed in a warfront from a Chloro/Dom or nightblade/Riftstalker, maybe that is actually working as intended by the developers.

    It you're having trouble in pvp, maybe it's time to form a "TEAM" and use each others strengths and utility to achieve a winning outcome. It should not be your first instinct to hop on the official forums and ask for opposing class changes because you were defeated in a 1vs1 setting that was not in your favor. While I agree to some extent there can be issues with class mechanics that would make someone useful or not in pvp, and may need to be looked at, it often times does not require far sweeping changes I have seen on these forums of late.

    Sometimes all it actually needs is simply to get a balanced team together and achieve the goals you have in mind in a pve or pvp setting. I will take it back to when rogues were considered very bad in pvp, I did not reroll, I simply put together a bard build and made a premade group, we farmed victories in warfronts in a very successful manner, I was prestige rank8 just one month after it was available. Now to me, that is a success story that was achievable by my personal desire to beat content relying on my fellow players in my guild and our organized effort and "TEAM WORK".

    Now onto mages, which I have very little experience in, yes they can be effective in pvp currently, and by no means being carried in pve content either, I think they're fine for what I have been experiencing as a P40 rogue when faced with one. Their Chloro/Dom combo is formidable and has good defense + great offense. I have been obliterated by Mages/Warriors/offensive Clerics in a pvp scenario, but that's fine, because they caught me one on one without my team mates, and was able to gain the upper hand to win against me.

    While I will not assume some classes if not all of them, at any given stage of development in this game, does have issues pertaining to a particular content whether that be pve or pvp. It does not require the developers to rush in and start "flipping switches" to make life for that one individual solo player more bare able. In all honesty, if you think this problem is only in this game, you're sorely mistaken, there will always be that build that dominates you if caught out there by yourself. I can only give my greatest gratitude to the developers of this game, I personally endured months of being considered cannon fodder by most, to be elevated to a position of good stature in relative power compared against the opposing classes in existence.

    I do hope the an employee from TRION was able to glean over this thread and agree that from a balance perspective, all the classes are in a good place right now, maybe warriors could use some tweaks, but honestly, the dev's hard work and diligence have paid off, and I have the utmost gratitude to their great efforts in making pve & pvp as painless as possible for its community. I'm quite certain no one else here will share my humble opinion, but it's being posted to let the dev's know that a fairly skilled player, that clears hammerknell, and working on his second P40 thinks pvp is in a good place relating to class balance.

    I also hope Ailion does not get turned off by the negative coments thrown at him on a daily basis, and will continue to do the great and difficult job of balancing pve & pvp content. I have never made a long winded post before, but I found so many nerf rogue/Mage threads to be a bit troubling and wanted to voice my personal opinion on the matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    What is this wall all about?

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    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bippo View Post
    What is this wall all about?
    Why ask if you don't intend on reading it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    I also hope Ailion does not get turned off by the negative coments thrown at him on a daily basis, and will continue to do the great and difficult job of balancing pve & pvp content. I have never made a long winded post before, but I found so many nerf rogue/Mage threads to be a bit troubling and wanted to voice my personal opinion on the matter.
    I hope he does, and does something to correct it:

    Zinbik: Total Posts 200
    Atrius: Total Posts 164
    Kervik: Total Posts 88
    Ailion: Total Posts 45

    Yet rogues arguably have more players and more opportunity to communicate. I don't mean to steal your thread that much, but most of the complaining is his extreme lack of communication, the the point that I believe he actively avoids it.

    Hey Ailion, I hope your new nickname stuck around the office

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    Ascendant Gunzip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traciatim View Post
    I hope he does, and does something to correct it:

    Zinbik: Total Posts 200
    Atrius: Total Posts 164
    Kervik: Total Posts 88
    Ailion: Total Posts 45

    Yet rogues arguably have more players and more opportunity to communicate. I don't mean to steal your thread that much, but most of the complaining is his extreme lack of communication, the the point that I believe he actively avoids it.

    Hey Ailion, I hope your new nickname stuck around the office
    That is a bit off topic, I'm not concerned with his communication, but his ability to do the job he is being paid for, which is balance and code writing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I believe Assassin DoTs are uncleansable.

    It's still a terrible PvP spec compared to Marksman, though.

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    Banned overbyte's Avatar
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    In short: no.

    Longer version: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    Nerf */RS and healing clerics. Once you do that, warriors will automatically be in a better place.

    buff chloro.

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    Rift Master youkiddingme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    That is a bit off topic, I'm not concerned with his communication, but his ability to do the job he is being paid for, which is balance and code writing.
    That is the core problem. It seems that either rogue does not have enough people working on the spec or there is a lack of communication on the dev part. As it stands rogue are getting anther set of nerf without even a bone to gnaw on. This is just bad customer service. The attrition rate for rogue players is getting medicinally bad. It will come down to no one will play a rogue. As he too weak to left a finger to fight off anyone. As all his defensive abilities are being gutted.


    P.S. Heck I was offered 500 p just to run Hk last night. That how bad it is getting to find a marks rogue or a rogue for that matter.
    Let freedom ring and all trolls hide under the bridge

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    Quote Originally Posted by overbyte View Post
    In short: no.

    Longer version: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    Nerf */RS and healing clerics. Once you do that, warriors will automatically be in a better place.

    buff chloro.
    Why are you so intent on nerfing RS?
    I don't use it myself, I'm just curious.
    Last edited by Zaros; 02-20-2012 at 02:46 PM.
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    Banned Shadowprison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by overbyte View Post
    In short: no.

    Longer version: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    Nerf */RS and healing clerics. Once you do that, warriors will automatically be in a better place.

    buff chloro.
    Bias, everyone has it.

    You just have infinitely more than anyone else.

  10. #10
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    I agree with your post to an extent. I feel no one should ever ask for a class to be nerfed but rather request their own class be buffed up to said level.

    I'm a FPS gamer at heart and so that is what I base all PvP around so my views are warped to say the least. Even in CAL and CPL there are teams but each player is expected to hold their own and fend for themselves, the team work comes into play in the score if everyone holds their own then at the end everyone points are added up and the team with the most points win.

    PvP in a MMO shouldn't really be any different. A person should be able to hold his own against another, game mechanic wise, and only leave the level of skill the players have to determine the out come. This is not the case though and two different classes using their dps build could meet and more then just the players skill comes into play to determine the out come. Some builds just out preform others. (EX. BM/?? vs NB/RS, warlock vs anything?)

    Team play is there and is useful but just like in FPS games PUGs are always a cluster *****. Sometimes your friends aren't on or are too busy to group up/premade for pvp, so you queue solo. Though team work is ideal in a PUG it just doesn't always work. Everyone always has their own strategy they believe is the best and the only communication is typing which is moot in the heat of moment, maybe if rift had a wf voice chat option in game PUGs would be a lot easier to manage if people used it. But until then it would be a lot easier for Trion to cater to the existing needs then blindly continue with their "Intent".

    There is a reason why premade roll PUGs more times then not even if vent isn't used they usually know each others tactics or have a game plan long before the match starts.

    Also to currently compare PvE experience/dynamics to PvP isn't very accurate. A comparable PvE scenario would be if Trion created a queue systems for raids like a LFG option for HK.

    How well would your weekly raid go if it always popped you into HK with 20 random people. Horrifying right ? Well that is how it is every time you solo join a wf. You have undergeared, experienced or just plain bad people on your team.
    Last edited by InternetBorn; 02-20-2012 at 03:07 PM.
    Patches Warriors have been screwed: 1.8/1.8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    That is a bit off topic, I'm not concerned with his communication, but his ability to do the job he is being paid for, which is balance and code writing.
    Wow, that's his job? I would have never have guessed that in a million years based on his performance. I would have guessed cut costs by ignoring feedback was his primary focus.
    Last edited by Traciatim; 02-20-2012 at 03:38 PM.

  12. #12
    General of Telara Nemrud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunzip View Post
    put them in close comparison to warriors single target dps
    Stopped reading here & LOLed. Newsflash - PvE & PvP are different things.

    Noone who play Rift will respect your words when you say warriors have considerable DPS in PvP.

    I know I didn't.
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    Banned Bunzy's Avatar
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    I laugh when rogues say everything is in a good place.
    Of course it is for them!
    I wish I could be the OP class as well.

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traciatim View Post
    I hope he does, and does something to correct it:

    Zinbik: Total Posts 200
    Atrius: Total Posts 164
    Kervik: Total Posts 88
    Ailion: Total Posts 45

    Yet rogues arguably have more players and more opportunity to communicate. I don't mean to steal your thread that much, but most of the complaining is his extreme lack of communication, the the point that I believe he actively avoids it.

    Hey Ailion, I hope your new nickname stuck around the office


    Just an interesting note.... kervik has the 2nd least number of posts... yet is probably the most sought after of the class developers. Posting a lot and posting effectively are different things altogether..... not saying Ailion is super effective of course :P.

    As for OP, I somewhat agree with some of your points. PvP is in a relatively good place now. Problem is everyone wants it to be balanced around solo play... coz everyone is selfish. During the time when warriors were considered to be the absolute worst class, I duo teamed with a warrior guildy, me being his pocket healer. We easily took down any combination of 2 or 3 opponents barely breaking a sweat..... coz each and every one of them was playing for him/her self. No coordination, no cooperation, no strategy.... equals my class is underpowered.

  15. #15
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    OP makes good points, but he's wrong about MM, NB/RS, and assassin being the only 3 viable PvP builds.

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