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Thread: Explainz me some things

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default Explainz me some things

    First forum post for me~ Happy new years~

    Anyways, with all these posts bout nerfing/op/trololol, there's some things I don't get and would like some clarification on.
    Gonna number them for lulz instead of a fluid post.


    1) Recent sc nerf. I had no idea that they had to build up 8 seconds worth of debuffs for big damage. Hell, I didn't know much about any other class besides rogues. Argument is that you can cleanse the debuffs/los the mage. Cleansing has cd, doesn't it? Even if you happen to cleanse yourself, reapplying debuffs is easy enough. Not to mention that it's a warfront, which means it's a group vs group where debuffs seem to appear like magic and finding whatever mage that applied it in a group of other mages/clerics/rogues seems like a game of hide-and-seek-or-get-fked-up-in-the-next-5-seconds. So I don't really know how cleanse could be a strong argument unless you got one of those pocket healers. And you really can't expect your team healer to magically take the time out of healing cleanse someone (I've done it, but hey, there's more than one person to take care of).

    2) Dps without the dps. I look at the numbers on the chart, and frankly, sometimes it's very disappointing. I can understand when support/healers have little to no dps, but when I see my whole pug group of rogue/warrior/mage barely going past 40k (I mean barely)in a match like codex while the other side has most to all of their group has over 40k (hell, 2/3 were over 60k), I'm a bit saddened. It was a ranked 1-4 warfront, so it may be understandable, but the other side shows that we could have been better since they're in the same boat. So that's either a gear/skill problem. I think it's gear, since as bad as my example warfront sounds (hell yeah it happened), we won. Why? I bloody killed everyone on the opposing side and felt the weight of the world (felt pretty nice tbh) and got 200k dps single target and 24 kb. Should I feel proud that I probably was hitting some poor p1-p4 person? Maybe I should since I was p4 also. I'm decently geared in purple, so gear did matter.

    3) Tanks being tanks. I know it's their choice to be all "oh look at ma 10k hp and weak damage," but it's amazingly annoying how some can be when you need more than seven people focusing to kill him, then near the end, to pop up a max heal (yes, 5 minute cd, we know) and having to restart trying to kill him. Even worse when you realize that -even if you just ignore him- some of your group won't and instead focus on the tank. It's natural. But when they have 2-3 healers and mages/ranged rogues/tank rogues killing off the ones that take the bait, the tank is probably impossible to kill unless healers drop, which they won't as your team's firing thar lazars right at the damage sponge.

    4) Oh look, squirrel. yes squirrel. Even with all the complaints about it, you have to admit that rendering your target as a furry creature of pure rage for 6 seconds while you be blasting it's furry butt with fire is super bursty. Oh, it can break with any amount of damage, even a bleed, but once it's been done, you have your speedy buff handy and ready to go. Rogues have to build combopoints, warriors with their charge or something to get melee ranged, other classes with some kind of ranged skill, are really just gonna have to take it and hope they don't die. There's not much to do when you're a squirrel. Los? 2 spells are already coming at you. The only thing I can do as a rogue (I don't know what other classes do, please enlighten me about it) is either have riftstalker/bard in my spec ready to interrupt for the moment, which even then, I'm confused as hell to know who even squirreled me when I see a group of eight or so.

    5) Too little healing over here, overkill healing over there. Oh, you know those warfronts where there's more than 3 healers on so and so's team. But wait! You also have healers on your side as well. It's gonna be an epic clash of action! Well, not exactly...it's one of those warfronts where your healer can barely go over 20k before being marked while their whole team seems to be always full health/running when they go behind 50% health. Why? The first person in the warfront is too lazy to mark.There are some instances where marking isn't really needed, or was just useless, but having little to no markings could just as well be saying "I forfeit, lemme help you farm my body while we wait for you to win though."

    6) Mages are easy to kill. Some are, others decided they wanted to sport 7-8k health and kill everything while the healers are keeping them alive. Sure, they're squishy, but they have just enough health (3-6k left)to make sure they have time to squirrel/ burst your butt with their group and reap the rewards of having blood thirsty+cleric. It's not always like that, I'm sure, but the pugs in warfronts usually give up and just sit around and have a cup of tea after the inevitable is about to happen, ex. codex 700/100,bg 38/400,whitefall steppe 0/2, library 300,800. I'm sure when someone is losing a warfront badly, they don't try as hard to get back up.

    7) Fan out. Are. You. Serious. I see rogues just spamming fan out into a group of people. For what? better dps numbers? there are instances where it could be helpful, but all in all, I'd rather focus on one person and actually drop them down a few thousands of health, rather than just spam out and have all the damage done rehealed in un momento. Amazingly, I may get less dps numbers, but I get to actually drop a healer/mage's hp who's been keeping their team alive/killing ours.

    These are just some observations (Rift is a science now ) that I've noticed, and I'm wondering if they're accurate enough. I only play a rogue so I'm not sure what other classes do in warfronts, so if anything seems wrong, do tell. (one hell of a long post.)
    Last edited by Rozel; 01-01-2012 at 03:25 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozel View Post
    1) Recent sc nerf. I had no idea that they had to build up 8 seconds worth of debuffs for big damage. Hell, I didn't know much about any other class besides rogues. Argument is that you can cleanse the debuffs/los the mage. Cleansing has cd, doesn't it? Even if you happen to cleanse yourself, reapplying debuffs is easy enough. Not to mention that it's a warfront, which means it's a group vs group where debuffs seem to appear like magic and finding whatever mage that applied it in a group of other mages/clerics/rogues seems like a game of hide-and-seek-or-get-fked-up-in-the-next-5-seconds. So I don't really know how cleanse could be a strong argument unless you got one of those pocket healers. And you really can't expect your team healer to magically take the time out of healing cleanse someone (I've done it, but hey, there's more than one person to take care of).
    "Just cleanse it" and "it takes time to build up" don't really cut it as rationalizations. They didn't work for saboteurs, they didn't work for pyros, they didn't work for anyone who tried to use them as justification for why something wasn't OP. You'd think after 9 months of watching souls get nerfed despite the obnoxious mechanics fitting the criteria of "cleanse" or "time to build up" that people would get the hint, but they don't.

    2) Dps without the dps. I look at the numbers on the chart, and frankly, sometimes it's very disappointing. I can understand when support/healers have little to no dps, but when I see my whole pug group of rogue/warrior/mage barely going past 40k (I mean barely)in a match like codex while the other side has most to all of their group has over 40k (hell, 2/3 were over 60k), I'm a bit saddened. It was a ranked 1-4 warfront, so it may be understandable, but the other side shows that we could have been better since they're in the same boat. So that's either a gear/skill problem. I think it's gear, since as bad as my example warfront sounds (hell yeah it happened), we won. Why? I bloody killed everyone on the opposing side and felt the weight of the world (felt pretty nice tbh) and got 200k dps single target and 24 kb. Should I feel proud that I probably was hitting some poor p1-p4 person? Maybe I should since I was p4 also. I'm decently geared in purple, so gear did matter.
    Minor pet peeve: dps is not a stat used in PvP. PvP is about burst damage. As an assassin in warfronts, my damage done is always very low relative to other callings (unless I spend a lot of time chasing wardens around) because all of my damage is single target melee. I don't have any meaningful ranged attacks that let me sit off in a corner and free cast on people, I close on targets at normal run speed from stealth, and then regardless of the outcome there's almost always downtime before I'm on my next target. That means that overall, my damage done remains low, but if you ask anyone who eats a DD buffed Assassinate, my burst is substantial.

    That damage done stat is a reflection of the entire match. If someone dies a lot, their damage done will be low on account of time spent waiting to rez and running back to the action. If they're not a particularly adept player, their damage done will be low because they aren't using appropriate abilities at appropriate times (or their build doesn't include enough appropriate abilities.)

    In general, don't worry about damage done. Worry about the stats that matter. There are lots of different stats for each warfront and you don't win by standing their accumulating damage done while the enemy team beats you to all the objectives.

    3) Tanks being tanks. I know it's their choice to be all "oh look at ma 10k hp and weak damage," but it's amazingly annoying how some can be when you need more than seven people focusing to kill him, then near the end, to pop up a max heal (yes, 5 minute cd, we know) and having to restart trying to kill him. Even worse when you realize that -even if you just ignore him- some of your group won't and instead focus on the tank. It's natural. But when they have 2-3 healers and mages/ranged rogues/tank rogues killing off the ones that take the bait, the tank is probably impossible to kill unless healers drop, which they won't as your team's firing thar lazars right at the damage sponge.
    If they're annoying you, they're doing their job. Not much more to be said about it.

    4) Oh look, squirrel. yes squirrel. Even with all the complaints about it, you have to admit that rendering your target as a furry creature of pure rage for 6 seconds while you be blasting it's furry butt with fire is super bursty. Oh, it can break with any amount of damage, even a bleed, but once it's been done, you have your speedy buff handy and ready to go. Rogues have to build combopoints, warriors with their charge or something to get melee ranged, other classes with some kind of ranged skill, are really just gonna have to take it and hope they don't die. There's not much to do when you're a squirrel. Los? 2 spells are already coming at you. The only thing I can do as a rogue (I don't know what other classes do, please enlighten me about it) is either have riftstalker/bard in my spec ready to interrupt for the moment, which even then, I'm confused as hell to know who even squirreled me when I see a group of eight or so.
    Transmogrified. Stunned. Silenced. Doesn't matter. It's a control effect. You have a CD available to break it or you don't. If you don't, gg. Diminishing returns keeps it from getting overly obnoxious.

    5) Too little healing over here, overkill healing over there. Oh, you know those warfronts where there's more than 3 healers on so and so's team. But wait! You also have healers on your side as well. It's gonna be an epic clash of action! Well, not exactly...it's one of those warfronts where your healer can barely go over 20k before being marked while their whole team seems to be always full health/running when they go behind 50% health. Why? The first person in the warfront is too lazy to mark.There are some instances where marking isn't really needed, or was just useless, but having little to no markings could just as well be saying "I forfeit, lemme help you farm my body while we wait for you to win though."
    Marking helps, sure. But if one person can identify targets to mark, anyone can. Your issue doesn't seem to be so much that nobody is marking as it is not enough players on your team can identify and prioritize targets. Be careful you don't place blame on one person for the failure of the group.

    6) Mages are easy to kill. Some are, others decided they wanted to sport 7-8k health and kill everything while the healers are keeping them alive. Sure, they're squishy, but they have just enough health (3-6k left)to make sure they have time to squirrel/ burst your butt with their group and reap the rewards of having blood thirsty+cleric. It's not always like that, I'm sure, but the pugs in warfronts usually give up and just sit around and have a cup of tea after the inevitable is about to happen, ex. codex 700/100,bg 38/400,whitefall steppe 0/2, library 300,800. I'm sure when someone is losing a warfront badly, they don't try as hard to get back up.
    Mages are squishy (excluding those who build for survivability). Squishy is not the same as easy to kill. It just means they use other tools to survive. You have to realize that when people are talking about "easy to kill" this and "lolol you're a baddy if you can't kill a <whatever>", they're mostly talking out of their arse. The game isn't tuned around 1v1 PvP and there are almost always extenuating circumstances that can make what 'should' be easy considerably less so.

    7) Fan out. Are. You. Serious. I see rogues just spamming fan out into a group of people. For what? better dps numbers? there are instances where it could be helpful, but all in all, I'd rather focus on one person and actually drop them down a few thousands of health, rather than just spam out and have all the damage done rehealed in un momento. Amazingly, I may get less dps numbers, but I get to actually drop a healer/mage's hp who's been keeping their team alive/killing ours.
    Careful with that one. Earlier you were complaining about low damage numbers and now you're complaining about ineffectual strategies that accumulate large damage numbers. Are rogues who stand around spamming Fan Out useless? Most of the time, ya. They're good if the other team has no healing at all and they're good for sniping KBs out from under the people who did the lion's share of damage to a target. With VM nerfed to more reasonable levels, Fan Out is the lazy rogue's way to try and convince themselves they're contributing.

    These are just some observations (Rift is a science now ) that I've noticed, and I'm wondering if they're accurate enough. I only play a rogue so I'm not sure what other classes do in warfronts, so if anything seems wrong, do tell. (one hell of a long post.)
    The reason why PvP forums attract such a disproportionate number of whiners and complainers is because PvP isn't meant to be easy or even particularly casual. Players are given tools to cripple, disable, and kill their opponents and sent out to use them as best they can. Joe Average PvPer wants to cripple, disable, and kill, and he gets right pissed off when he gets crippled, disabled, and killed. Despite what some people will try to tell you, the skill component in Rift PvP is alive and well. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see such a discrepancy in performance.

    Not everyone has the mindset that will allow them to enjoy PvP. I find that I enjoy it the most when I focus on doing what I need to do to contribute, and that way even if we lose match after match I can still look at my contribution on the scoreboard and know that we didn't lose because of me. And when I get fed up (and I do...a lot) I log out. My biggest kvetch with Rift PvP has nothing to do with maps, the myth that is 'balance', or anything else that the devs can handle and everything to do with really awful players who make success inordinately difficult. After a while it wears on me and after I get to the point where I've spent the last 2-3 matches cussing people out for being horrible, that's my queue to take a break. (Realistically, I should take the break BEFORE I start cussing people out, but misery loves company and I'm damn sure not afraid to share.)

  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara Parfaite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    My biggest kvetch with Rift PvP has nothing to do with maps, the myth that is 'balance', or anything else that the devs can handle and everything to do with really awful players who make success inordinately difficult. After a while it wears on me and after I get to the point where I've spent the last 2-3 matches cussing people out for being horrible, that's my queue to take a break. (Realistically, I should take the break BEFORE I start cussing people out, but misery loves company and I'm damn sure not afraid to share.)
    I just wanted to say that everything you've said here - has been me for the last week in WF's. I haven't PvPed in a few days because I need a break for suuuuure.

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    1. The sc nerf was uneeded.

    2. Your team sucks. It always will. Play good so they don't have to.

    3. Tanks tanking? Preposterous!

    4. I'll agree it's annoying, but it makes mages viable.

    5. I've got a thread about it. Check my post history.

    6. It's not like it's overpowered.

    7. Rogues who use Fan Out are a waste of space.
    ~Quiescent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    1. The sc nerf was uneeded.

    2. Your team sucks. It always will. Play good so they don't have to.

    3. Tanks tanking? Preposterous!

    4. I'll agree it's annoying, but it makes mages viable.

    5. I've got a thread about it. Check my post history.

    6. It's not like it's overpowered.

    7. Rogues who use Fan Out are a waste of space.

    8. A turtle missing its shell is a lizard.
    You forgot one, I fixed it
    "You lost me at Balance"

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    1) Unneeded. Cleansing was a pain, but cleansing + LoS was good enough.

    2) Most pvper suck and are stupid.

    3) Thats why tanks are effective in pvp. Mainly because of point 2.

    4) Also agree its annoying if you dont have a cleanse. However most mages are very arrogant in wf, and dont realize that they can be killed before their RNG kicks in. So if you have a charge or double team, they are pretty much done.

    In any event, CC should be effective.

    5) Blame God for free will. Plus point 2.

    6) This is the only game ive played where people do not understand the concept of defensive builds and how effective they are. However, there is always a cycle for builds. Damage < Defensive < Control < Damage. However there is only 1 class that really have a control soul that can combat defensive builds. When trion decides to make control a more proponent feature in pvp, there will be a much larger array of builds. But until then, defensive builds will have very little counters, as control builds are very limited and the only class that have a good control build, are playing defensive builds.

    7) Point 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    1) Unneeded. Cleansing was a pain, but cleansing + LoS was good enough.

    2) Most pvper suck and are stupid.

    3) Thats why tanks are effective in pvp. Mainly because of point 2.

    4) Also agree its annoying if you dont have a cleanse. However most mages are very arrogant in wf, and dont realize that they can be killed before their RNG kicks in. So if you have a charge or double team, they are pretty much done.

    In any event, CC should be effective.

    5) Blame God for free will. Plus point 2.

    6) This is the only game ive played where people do not understand the concept of defensive builds and how effective they are. However, there is always a cycle for builds. Damage < Defensive < Control < Damage. However there is only 1 class that really have a control soul that can combat defensive builds. When trion decides to make control a more proponent feature in pvp, there will be a much larger array of builds. But until then, defensive builds will have very little counters, as control builds are very limited and the only class that have a good control build, are playing defensive builds.

    7) Point 2

    8) If a turtle is missing his shell, and has no legs he would be a snake.
    Fixed again =D
    "You lost me at Balance"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parfaite View Post
    I just wanted to say that everything you've said here - has been me for the last week in WF's. I haven't PvPed in a few days because I need a break for suuuuure.
    I took a break a little over a month ago to play Skyrim and some other games. I was maybe a bonus weekend away from rank 6 on my rogue but I was just burnt out. The norm for me is to have the same PvP daily sitting in my journal for 2-4 days at a stretch. Now that I'm back to playing, it'll be a little while before I get reacquainted with my keybindings + new mouse (I was running around on my cleric today and found myself left clicking on mobs wondering why I wasn't swinging my hammer because I've spent so much time playing Bastion o.O). I don't expect much to have changed in terms of sub-par players in warfronts making things frustrating, but there's a reason I'm usually one of the last people to jump all over the devs demanding that they fix things.

  9. #9
    Prophet of Telara Parfaite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    I took a break a little over a month ago to play Skyrim and some other games. I was maybe a bonus weekend away from rank 6 on my rogue but I was just burnt out. The norm for me is to have the same PvP daily sitting in my journal for 2-4 days at a stretch. Now that I'm back to playing, it'll be a little while before I get reacquainted with my keybindings + new mouse (I was running around on my cleric today and found myself left clicking on mobs wondering why I wasn't swinging my hammer because I've spent so much time playing Bastion o.O). I don't expect much to have changed in terms of sub-par players in warfronts making things frustrating, but there's a reason I'm usually one of the last people to jump all over the devs demanding that they fix things.
    Yeah, I decided I can no longer PvP straight to 50, since my patience has deteriorated to almost nonexistence. Now I'm finding it's less frustrating to PvE through most of my leveling process and just PvP every now and then, and leave my hardcore PvPing til after 50, when everybody AT LEAST understands the objectives in the maps. Whether or not they care about the objectives though at that point tends to not bother me as much either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parfaite View Post
    Yeah, I decided I can no longer PvP straight to 50, since my patience has deteriorated to almost nonexistence. Now I'm finding it's less frustrating to PvE through most of my leveling process and just PvP every now and then, and leave my hardcore PvPing til after 50, when everybody AT LEAST understands the objectives in the maps. Whether or not they care about the objectives though at that point tends to not bother me as much either.
    I've done the "level to 50 mostly by warfront" approach twice now and it's great for hitting 50 with favor towards your rank 1-2 gear, but as the population continues to shift towards the level cap, the queues for the lower levels just get longer and longer. This seems particularly true for the 30-39 bracket. All the kids rerolling FotM who get bored at level 23 are gone and 30-39 is the bracket where it starts to drag on and on...and on.

    I'd rather deal with people who don't know the objectives so you can explain and occasionally see improvement than people who know the objectives and don't care, or don't know the objectives but think they do and make a mess :P

  11. #11
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    If a turtle is missing his shell, and has no legs he would be a dead turtle.

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    Generally WF's boil down to the 2 or 3 dudes that are badass, I'm sure we have all seen decked out r8's go 1-10. It requires very little skill/talent/knowledge/mayonaise to get to r8 and get all the gear.


    But when you get a match full of those dayblind defiant baddies....you know its gonna be "lets see how fast we can rush them and GY camp them the rest of the match"
    it is not enough these days to question authority, you gotta speak with it too

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