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Thread: Pyro/Dom misinformation and discussion

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    Ascendant Bleeds's Avatar
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    Default Pyro/Dom misinformation and discussion

    Took this quote from a thread in the class forums, thought it was a good place to start a topic on some of this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt55511 View Post
    PyroDom is not OP for any one given reason. It's the combination of it's absurd amount of CC, it's absurd amount of damage, it's cooldowns, it's ability to completely shutdown any given person...

    Can you name any single class that, in 1 spec, can:
    Have a spammable, control-stealing CC similar to squirrel with no cast time and no CD that can be used mid-fight. For example, fears, stuns, saps.
    Have incredibly large mana drains with short cooldowns
    Have incredible damage (CB for 2.5-3k, FB for 1.5k+, Flamebolt, countdown, Storm Shackle..on P8s)\
    Can completely shutdown a single target. For example, energy draining a warrior to uselessness. Or snaring them and then forcing them to not move due to Storm Shackle.
    Can completely drain a target of all mana in a shorter time frame than any other class.
    Has considerable survivability via sheeping, flicker, break free, shielding...
    I think there's a little misinformation floating around lately I might help clean up a bit.

    1. Squirrel has been identical since beta. Not sure why it's such a big deal lately. I suspect it's because many of the other pretty effective mage soul combinations have been tweaked. I agree that it's a very strong ability, which is probably why I (and I'm probably the only one) haven't PVP'd without it since level 40 or so. That being said, as a means of actual CC, it's incredibly unreliable due to the massive amounts of CC's breaks, ports, aoe, etc flying around in warfronts. I think the only real problem with it right now is there's just a ton more mages specced into it since 51 lock and SC have been nerfed to perceived uselessness.

    2. Pyro/Dom has 1700 (2K, 3K etc) fireballs with 1 second GCD. Sure, if they're specced into overload they do. I doubt anyone in game runs more spellpower than me in PVP really, and with my spec (31/31/4) without overload, my fireballs realistically crit for 1200 or so on even semi valor'd opponents. That's as GOOD as it gets in my spec, and 99% of pyrodoms in my spec will hit for much less.

    3. No pyro/dom spec has incredible mana drains. I can hardly even keep a single R8 cleric OOM in a duel long enough to keep him from healing to full, if it's all I'm trying to do. I'm unable to spec into improved mana wrench, or Mass Betrayal. My mana drains are situational at best, and the pyrodom lite (30/21/15) build's drains are even worse as no TI in that spec.

    4. Referring to "completely shutting down a warrior." In my spec, for a few seconds, every 30 second CD I can gimp their energy some - it's not even CLOSE to the energy starvation before the nerfs to my 2 drain abilities. My drains don't seem to even slow rogues down a lot of the time. As far as storm shackle goes. It's one of the few snares that actually works in the current PVP system, due to all the snare breaks and ports melee get. You can move if you don't mind taking the damage, you can have it cleansed, you can spec a multitude of classes that can cleanse it yourself, or you can sit there. Storm shackle is a great spell that forces the player to make situational decisions. Also, it loses a ton of usefullnes if under 20m since almost all melee can just port to you from there, so there's some added skill factor/intelligence layer on the mage's end (good one's make the "decision" you have to make tougher). This is good PVP, not gamebreaking in any way.

    5. "Can completely drain a target of all mana in a shorter time frame than any other class." Wait, I thought this was about pyrodom, not 51 Dom... So just to get this straight, it seems like you're combining characteristics of 51 dom, 31/pyro 31/dom, and 30/pyro/21dom/15AM all into one. These are 3 separate and disparate specs, and you do not get the benefits of all 3 rolled into some magical pyrodom spec that you seem to think you're encountering.

    6. As far as survivability, 100% of pyro/dom survivability comes from manual, intelligent use of my abilities. Honestly, if 2 R8's want me dead and I'm alone or don't have great heals, I'm dead. You wanna talk about a class that has burst+survivability? How about Marksman builds with infiltrators 4 second cleanse soul. There's nothing close to 4 seconds of immunity that a pyro/dom gets. Plus MM's have better range and mobility.

    Basically put, don't combine the best traits of 51 dom, pyro/dom lite, and pyro/dom in your head and then complain about the mage spec that has all 3. It doesn't exist. Pyro/dom lite does have some insane fireball/CB crits, but the tradeoff is losing almost all of those dom goodies like energy drains, splits, reflects, TI, etc. Pyro/dom (31/31) does have lotsa dom goodies, but with best gear in game my FBs crit for about 1200 or so on a geared R8, definitely not 1500, 1700, or 2k. 51 dom might be able to "completely shut down" anyone in the game, if they choose to, but they definitelyd on't get giant fireballs, or any of the pyro stuff. And their survivability is paper if you focus them.

    I'm hoping that with this, we can start with an accurate representation of what these builds have/don't have, do/can't do, so we can have better terms to have an intelligent discussion of what might be/might not be OP, etc.
    Last edited by Bleeds; 12-28-2011 at 10:53 AM.

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    What the hell, I'll bite.

    1. Your entire debate was countered in the first sentence of the quote. It's not any single ability, but the combo of ALL of them. Yes, squirrel has been around since the start of the game and it was fine because it wasn't in combination with everything else Pyro/Dom has.

    2. 1700 is wrong. You're right on that one. 1200 fireballs every 1s (or less since increased cast time after CC?) aren't much better though.

    3+5. Right, Pyro/Dom isn't as good as full 51 Dom. But even 31 Dom is better at it than any other class, including VK. Not good enough to drain a R8 Cleric, which is probably intended and depends on the Clerics spec.

    4. Transference lasts for 7 seconds + 1-2 more to regen energy/power from 0. Once Warriors bottom out, they'll continually struggle with power unless they get a few lucky crits in a row. I'm not familiar with Rogues, so won't comment on them.

    You mention the 20m range with SS and you're right. If the mage is bad and doesn't move out of 20m range before applying SS, we can port to you, but still can't move.

    This is good PVP, not gamebreaking in any way.
    What other class has an ability like that? Kill yourself by moving or stand still and die from 1200 fireballs.



    This is all coming from a Warrior's perspective - I can swallow all of this if it is meant that Mages are the hard counter to Warrior's, but IMO countering should be based on specs, not classes. As is, Pyro/Dom's are OP vs Warriors. Clerics and Rogues can vouch for themselves.
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    Plane Walker Skyfoxy's Avatar
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    4. Transference lasts for 7 seconds + 1-2 more to regen energy/power from 0. Once Warriors bottom out, they'll continually struggle with power unless they get a few lucky crits in a row. I'm not familiar with Rogues, so won't comment on them.
    Yes, I've noticed this works best on warriors and coupled with TI(if there's no better target) practically renders most of them energy starved. Maybe rogues have their energy regen faster or have other means to regen it

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattya802 View Post
    What the hell, I'll bite.

    1. Your entire debate was countered in the first sentence of the quote. It's not any single ability, but the combo of ALL of them. Yes, squirrel has been around since the start of the game and it was fine because it wasn't in combination with everything else Pyro/Dom has.
    I've been pretty openly pyro/dom since 1.2. The GCD buff in 1.6 was nice (although my dmg got reduced some at the same time due to losing glyphs of power). But I've been dominating warfronts consistently every patch, without a "this is OP" to be heard. That being said, I've been advocating that this was a great spec to the mage class for EVER. Why weren't people using it? Because 51 WL was "better" - SC was "better" etc etc. Those have been nerfed, thus all of a sudden people aren't using them anymore, and are using this. That doesn't make this build any stronger, just our options have become less, and people find what still works.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattya802 View Post
    2. 1700 is wrong. You're right on that one. 1200 fireballs every 1s (or less since increased cast time after CC?) aren't much better though.
    1 second is the floor, nothing can cast faster (gcd). But, fair enough, but keep in mind to do that I'm running a build with no heals, and no innate defensive cooldowns or immunities, have purposefully stacked the best spellpower gear found in the game which has taken hundreds of hours to acquire and am fully buffed w/ consumables, have found someone not on DR to sheep for the cast speed buff and spent 1 second of time doing that, and have positioned myself situationally to be able to cast said interruptable and silenceable spells freely and in a place where I hope I won't get focused. The result is, on a geared warrior, I get to take about an 8th of your HP pool per CRIT (not guaranteed).

    Quote Originally Posted by mattya802 View Post
    3+5. Right, Pyro/Dom isn't as good as full 51 Dom. But even 31 Dom is better at it than any other class, including VK. Not good enough to drain a R8 Cleric, which is probably intended and depends on the Clerics spec.
    I think you're overestimating the usefullness of pyro/dom mana drains. They're nice, but if they disappeared tomorrow, it really wouldn't affect my playstyle much, if at all. Good pyro/doms spend their time CC'ing and damaging, not mana draining. If you wanna mana drain as a priority, you'd spec chloro/dom or full dom.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattya802 View Post
    4. Transference lasts for 7 seconds + 1-2 more to regen energy/power from 0. Once Warriors bottom out, they'll continually struggle with power unless they get a few lucky crits in a row. I'm not familiar with Rogues, so won't comment on them.
    Transference since nerf cuts your energy by 50%, not 100%, so you don't necessarily start from 0. But yeah, that's basically the mechanics of the skill, I don't see how you could nerf it further and still keep it as a viable added control layer to PVP. We can be silenced, warriors can be energy gimped, where you can still do things, just not as well. With a silence we get to do nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattya802 View Post
    You mention the 20m range with SS and you're right. If the mage is bad and doesn't move out of 20m range before applying SS, we can port to you, but still can't move.

    What other class has an ability like that? Kill yourself by moving or stand still and die from 1200 fireballs.
    The argument that no other class has an ability like that, which makes life in your particular class in a particular spec particularly difficult is a tough one to get behind. No other class but rogues have an insanely good ranged purge with no CD that can instantly negate both my 31 point Heatwave and my 28 point split personality. That same skill against a different class/spec doesn't produce the same headaches that it can for me. I don't know what your point is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattya802 View Post
    This is all coming from a Warrior's perspective - I can swallow all of this if it is meant that Mages are the hard counter to Warrior's, but IMO countering should be based on specs, not classes. As is, Pyro/Dom's are OP vs Warriors. Clerics and Rogues can vouch for themselves.
    Few things. First, I agree countering should be based on specs, not classes. How does VK not fit into that philosophy completely? But as a whole, the pyro/dom spec IS an insanely good counter to just about all non VK warriors. It has, and ALWAYS HAS HAD, a plethora of tools to counter warriors with. You can watch my PVP videos from 1.3 on, warriors have always been screwed fighting against me. Nothing has changed here, except now VK is a viable spec counter to me.

    But if we want to talk about classes being countered, I absolutely do think, as a whole mages > warriors. Also, as a whole, rogues > mages. Against an equally geared and equally skilled (note: not many) Marksman, they're going to make my life hell, and probably win most 1v1 encounters. (ask Quiescent/Zaros) And maybe I'm doing something wrong, but an R8 51 sin with Inf w/ cleanse soul and slip away up is basically an impossible fight for me to win without healing. NB/RS is probably equal footing, but IMO nb/rs vs pyro/dom is probably one of the most balanced, interesting, and compelling spec vs spec fights in the game as it stands. But basically put, an R8 rogue has multiple specs to counter me, an R8 mage has multiple specs to counter warriors, and clerics, despite what they think are and always will be the single most important factor in meaningful PVP.
    Last edited by Bleeds; 12-28-2011 at 11:57 AM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    its not so bad if there is just 1 pyro/dom all alone but in combination with multiple pyro/dom's and other classes that might be in the warfront its extremely effective

    2 MM's in a team = double the damage
    2 pyro/dom's in a team = double the damage AND double the CC's AND double the mana drains

    its an issue of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts when it comes to pyro/dom. the more pyro/dom's you have in a warfront the more time you spend being CC'd to the point where you can literally do nothing before you're dead

    i once ran into a premade of 5 pyro/doms in port scion, i spent 90% of my in combat time as a squirrel, DR's don't matter when you're dead before they kick in and by the time i rez'd up and ran back i was off DR and ready to be squirreled again

    i think the main problem is that the talent which reduces cast time by 50% for 5 seconds on CC applies EVEN WHEN THE CC IS RESISTED/IMMUNED. in combination with the pyro 1s GCD, this gives incredible burst *at all times* even when your target is on DR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    i think the main problem is that the talent which reduces cast time by 50% for 5 seconds on CC applies EVEN WHEN THE CC IS RESISTED/IMMUNED. in combination with the pyro 1s GCD, this gives incredible burst *at all times* even when your target is on DR
    Not true, you must successfully land your sheep to get the cast speed buff. Swift Control tooltip: "After SUCCESSFULLY controlling an enemy using transmogrify..."
    Last edited by Bleeds; 12-28-2011 at 12:08 PM.

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    Plane Walker Skyfoxy's Avatar
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    Btw, pyrodoms can be countered and I found that best in this work for mages at least is chlorodom.
    ...don't forget about sins
    ...and VK which if played well is nightmare for all dps mages
    Not sure about clerics, they must heal, not "counter" someone.
    Not true, you must successfully land your sheep to get the cast speed buff. Swift Control tooltip: "After SUCCESSFULLY controlling an enemy using transmogrophy..."
    I think he was saying about quick thinking.
    Last edited by Skyfoxy; 12-28-2011 at 12:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfoxy View Post
    I think he was saying about quick thinking.
    That one is after every attempted CC cast, but only cuts your very next cast by .5 seconds, and is gone after that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    That being said, I've been advocating that this was a great spec to the mage class for EVER.
    The argument that it was always OP isn't helping your case

    But seriously, that doesn't have much to do with it. More people using it now is just making it more well known. It may have always been stronger, but recent changes to Pyro have made it stronger and with the nerf to other specs, more people playing it, it just makes it more visual, not stronger or weaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    1 second is the floor, nothing can cast faster (gcd). But, fair enough, but keep in mind to do that I'm running a build with no heals, and no innate defensive cooldowns or immunities, have purposefully stacked the best spellpower gear found in the game which has taken hundreds of hours to acquire and am fully buffed w/ consumables, have found someone not on DR to sheep for the cast speed buff and spent 1 second of time doing that, and have positioned myself situationally to be able to cast said interruptable and silenceable spells freely and in a place where I hope I won't get focused. The result is, on a geared warrior, I get to take about an 8th of your HP pool per CRIT (not guaranteed).
    That entire argument can be said about the poor P8 Warrior on the other side of those fireballs also. Could be full P8 gear, consumables, stacked crit for power regen purposes and still wouldn't matter. Even as VK/RB, it doesn't do much against direct damage. Also, RB abilities can be silenced in addition to us being power drained. An 8th (at 1.2, more like a 6th or 7th) of our HP pool in one crit still only takes 8 seconds. Transference lasts 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    I think you're overestimating the usefullness of pyro/dom mana drains....
    Fair enough. Mana draining is a pretty insignificant part to the game, rightfully so IMO. I know I've mentioned in the past that VK drains should be buffed, but I wouldn't mind if they were completely taken out of the game. They'll only work against low rank players that are already near drained anyways.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    Transference since nerf cuts your energy by 50%, not 100%, so you don't necessarily start from 0. But yeah, that's basically the mechanics of the skill, I don't see how you could nerf it further and still keep it as a viable added control layer to PVP. We can be silenced, warriors can be energy gimped, where you can still do things, just not as well. With a silence we get to do nothing.
    It lowers it by 50 energy. We're most likely not sitting at 100 and even one attack would lower us to near 80. If it was after an interrupt attempt or a Burst ability were probably closer to 50, which would put us near 0. In addition to it decreasing our regen rate (which is already low), it increases ability cost. We're pretty much useless for 7-9 seconds unless you count a 400 Flamespear as deadly lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    Few things. First, I agree countering should be based on specs, not classes. How does VK not fit into that philosophy completely?
    38vk/28rb will do much better against Pyro/Dom but still lose eventually. It is far from a counter to Pyro/Dom and more like something we need to stay alive until more people show up to help us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    its not so bad if there is just 1 pyro/dom all alone but in combination with multiple pyro/dom's and other classes that might be in the warfront its extremely effective

    2 MM's in a team = double the damage
    2 pyro/dom's in a team = double the damage AND double the CC's AND double the mana drains

    its an issue of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts when it comes to pyro/dom. the more pyro/dom's you have in a warfront the more time you spend being CC'd to the point where you can literally do nothing before you're dead

    i once ran into a premade of 5 pyro/doms in port scion, i spent 90% of my in combat time as a squirrel, DR's don't matter when you're dead before they kick in and by the time i rez'd up and ran back i was off DR and ready to be squirreled again

    i think the main problem is that the talent which reduces cast time by 50% for 5 seconds on CC applies EVEN WHEN THE CC IS RESISTED/IMMUNED. in combination with the pyro 1s GCD, this gives incredible burst *at all times* even when your target is on DR
    Squirrel becomes less useful with a bunch of them running around because of DR. Probably have some cross squirrelling going on. Yes, 5 would be deadly, but there are numerous combination of 5 players that would be more deadly.

    I would also argue that 2 51 Dom's would be much more deadly to the other team that 2 Pyro/Dom's.
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    But seriously, that doesn't have much to do with it. More people using it now is just making it more well known. It may have always been stronger, but recent changes to Pyro have made it stronger and with the nerf to other specs, more people playing it, it just makes it more visual, not stronger or weaker.
    I think this is the key here. Fotm chasers, running like lemmings for build that will magically make them "kill things".
    That's why there's plenty of pyrodoms out there who think it's wise to put TI without even putting something to cleanse-buffer it, or ppl who don't even know how their own "reflective presence" looks like.
    That's why all of a sudden, we don't see many SC's and 51 warlocks.
    This will last forever, I think.

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    Matt, I'm not trying to win an argument over whether or not some form of pyro/dom is currently OP in some aspects. I really do think the pyro/dom lite build is a bit OP, mainly because of how mindlessly easy it can be to destroy people in it once you have the gear, and how quickly you can pump out giant crits through overload. (sheep, fireballX4, win).

    To me, OP isn't just a function of how well an awesome, geared player can do, but moreso, how easy it is to achieve singificant results. Played by an amazing player in great gear, Marksman is currently just as OP as anything else in game, if not more. However, that's less than 1% of players, so not OP, and bad MM's still produce terrible results. 31 pyro 31 dom, played by the right player, can be devastating, but that's less than 1%of players, and is going to be pretty terrible in the hands of bad players as well. Where you have blatant OP'ness is when the average person can do a simple macro/rotation and achieve great results (para/champ, DS doubletap, possibly current pyro/dom lite sheeping and 4XFB w/ overload crits faceroll? etc). Great players still do much better in those specs than the average, but the siren's call of something being OP is when the curve on results is much shallower between average and great, basically the avg do great, and the great a little better.

    But, mainly what I'm trying to do is get some of the misinformation cleared up so we can actually talk about things as they are, not as they are imagined or hyperbolically said to be. People tend to combine aspects of different class specs in their head and imagine that it's all one spec. But if that's the starting point for discussion, we're really not going to get anywhere.
    Last edited by Bleeds; 12-28-2011 at 12:35 PM.

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    Right. Fair enough. I appreciate you not jumping down my throat for having a discussion with you lol


    I think you did show though, that the spec can be VERY effective by just about anyone. Sheep, Fireballx4 or maybe even SS/Transference first and win. I absolutely agree that a great player will make the spec MUCH better, as with any type of utility/CC spec. Hell, even VK/RB is better in the hands of a good player as situational abilities (basically buffs/debuffs to be cleansed/purged) can typically turn a battle if handled properly.

    I wish I played all 4 classes in high ranked PvP, but from a Warriors perspective (mine at least), Pyro/Dom is very easy to play and very strong, where as something like MM actually takes some skill. I used to be worried about MM, but lately I've found very few that actually give me troubles (not S&B).

    Also, I have a guildy who has been PvP'ing with 50 valor as Pyro/Dom and is still able to do okay....He still tries to throw the argument that Warriors are OP because if they reach him dies, but he admits that most of the time they're dead before they do (WITH 50 EFFIN VALOR!).
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    Long story, short: spark was a mistake.

    If you (correctly) attribute a 1.5 second effective cast time to all instants, spark basically cut all of those cast times by 33%.

    For pyro/dom, this means 33% shorter cast time on roughly 15-20 extremely useful/powerful spells AND essentially permanent heatwave on your fireballs so long as you can land a squirrel. The raw pace advantage over just about every other spec is ridiculous.

    Meanwhile, a warlock spec that needs to stack a bunch of low-impact debuffs is still saddled with a 1.5 sec gcd. This is just totally backwards. If anything, the dot specs need the gcd help.

    Cut spark from 0.5 to 0.25 gcd reduction.

    Shades need to be nerfed hard. I think they should be tied to the number of points you spend in dom such that a 51 dom has roughly the same shades we have right now while a 31 dom's shades are maybe half as strong.

    Instant sheep needs a modest cool down. 10 seconds would suffice.

    There. Still strong, but not crazy.

    Oh, and the drains? Really not an issue. I know warriors are mad that there's some sort of CC they can't just teleport out of, but that's just how life works sometimes. And the healers? Yeah, you need a counter. Good thing it isn't actually pyro/dom. Try 51 dom.
    Last edited by handerhank; 12-28-2011 at 12:47 PM.

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    Plane Walker Skyfoxy's Avatar
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    Shades need to be nerfed hard. I think they should be tied to the number of points you spend in dom such that a 51 dom has roughly the same shades we have right now while a 31 dom's shades are maybe half as strong.
    And what us, chlorodom fans out there will do? No.

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