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Thread: Honest tactics questions: Guardian vs Defiant

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser
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    Default Honest tactics questions: Guardian vs Defiant

    I will be upfront in saying that I am not a hardcore pvper by any means. The only reason I started pvping was to get a couple better trinkets for raiding.

    After a few dozen warfront, and getting my *** kicked by R6+ geared Defiants, Ive hit R3, and have come to a general consensus about the two factions in pvp.

    Simple put, Defiant have a plan, Guardians dont.

    This brings me to my question... WTF guys?!

    How is it that in almost every single WF, I see the Defiants with 2-4 aoe healers, making killing anyone a real pain. Huddled together in groups, making killing anyone nigh impossible unless you have 3 MM snipe them. And holding strategic objectives while seemingly assigning other people (often with a healer), to deal with additional objectives.

    Meanwhile I see people on the Guardian side not healing, not staying together, overextending like mad, and running away after capturing an objective?

    Honestly guys. If they have healers, and we dont, they win. If they are huddled together and you go in trying to win by yourself, you will be *****. If we finally take an objective, then you run off and leave it completely unguarded, they will take it back within a minute.

    We (Guardians) really need to start thinking in pvp. This does not apply much to R8s, since at R8, you can faceroll almost anyone with a halfway decent pvp spec, unless its another R8.
    We need to have people who will heal the group. We need several of them! Yes, healing will not get you kills. Yes healing will probably get you focused at some point. But if nobody heals on our side, then not only do we die faster, we cant kill them, and in the end, they win. So all that extra prestige and favor goes to them.

    As for dps'ers, if there is someone on your team willing to be a tank (I know I am about to be flamed about how useless tanks are in pvp), and they ask you to help them. DO IT! If someone is volunteering to run in and be targeted so they will ignore you, giving you free reign to rip them to sheds... DO IT!
    If your tank says to assist them on the healer, whom they will be rooting, fearing, silencing, interrupting, yanking, etc, ASSIST THEM AND KILL THAT HEALER!

    This is pretty much why Defiants tend to roll Guardians in pvp. They are organized, and have people who do not care about their leet KDR and how many noobz they managed to gank, but instead do what is needed so that the team can win.

    If we Guardians started using some actual tactics and stopped trying to be heros, then pvp wouldnt be such a pain.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Soul sky's Avatar
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    Here is the reason why your thread is stupid: Guardian/Defiant players are really just the same type of players pooled together playing Rift. There is no inherent superior gaming skill that makes the good players roll defiant whilst the noobs go Guardian. It's random.

    You are making this thread because you lose to a lot of the same players (or possibly duos/premades queueing together) whilst only in a PUG group yourself, and thus yes of course it looks like your team is clueless and they are coordinated.

    You can have exactly the same perspective from a Defiant character getting steamrolled continuously by Guardians...
    Valery@Zaviel - Mage | Valzz - Cleric | Soulsky - Rogue | Introvert - Warrior
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  3. #3
    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    Play in Aus prime times . The plan is win, and win we do!


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  4. #4
    Sword of Telara Feid's Avatar
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    actually i tend to agree with the op


    the answer is more defiants then gaurdians. thus they have a better chance to pool ebtter players.
    Now known as Menthol of galena.
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  5. #5
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Defiants have Clerics that actually heal.
    Except Tyaus. Love you.
    ~Quiescent

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    Default I agree with first post and am probably quitting due to this

    The problem is either people who A. don't know what they are supposed to do either from lack of experience or being stupid, which I'm sure depends on the person or B. They know but they don't care because they believe their "plan" of running around like they think are some kind of super bad*** Asian guy from a movie who can take 20 people all by themselves. And the capping of objective is the most apparent form of this. They cap the flag and run off to chase down their next death like a chicken who has ADD and just had his head cut off. I mean come on people if your not going to work together and listen to the people who are trying to help us win...go PVE leave us alone...some of us only pvp and we would like to never ever see your horrible pvping faces again. For all you who try and just arent the best pvpers...i welcome you to come pvp...we will help you and maybe youll turn out to be the best pvper ever....I dont dislike noobs. I dislike ignorant people who dont want to learn.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Defiants are better organised in pvp wf`s, because Trion gm`s/devs play defiant toons, therefore they are allowed to make pre-made groups in warfronts.
    were guardians would be lucky to get 2 ppl in same wf`s all the time, i can name 6-10 defiants who are always together in wf`s.

  8. #8
    Ascendant
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    I have to agree on one note that defiant clerics do heal. I dunno about other battle groups but the guardian clerics on the briarcliff battlegroup dont heal for shizznit, always gimping the team but meh i dont say anything its there right to play how they want.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul sky View Post
    Here is the reason why your thread is stupid: Guardian/Defiant players are really just the same type of players pooled together playing Rift. There is no inherent superior gaming skill that makes the good players roll defiant whilst the noobs go Guardian. It's random.
    Can we just make a thread called, "Which faction should I choose?" And sticky it with this as the OP.

  10. #10
    General of Telara Sunspots's Avatar
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    Both sides have the same plan, to win. It's just after u lose that first battle, it sets into motion a chain of events that makes it tough to win past that point. People start running back one at a time in the order they died, rogues pop stealth and split up to find stragglers, healing clerics switch to dps since they think they are going to.lose anyways, some dbag starts yelling at the lack of heals and 2 people just afk.

    It's pretty easy to look like a strategic genius when the other team rolls over after that first battle. Guardians on seastone do win frequently though, at least in my experience.

    Sunspots the Retired
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  11. #11
    Ascendant Taptap's Avatar
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    On my shard cluster and for the time period I tend to play, I do see the same people over and over and over. Of course I see others, but it's very common to see the same people in a match. The thing is, of the ones I see all the time they're usually not all from the same shard although of course many are.

    Sync queuing is not a new method for getting a group of friends together in the same warfront. They don't have to be from the same shard, they just need to be in voice communication with each other and know when to press Enter to queue up all together at the same time for a specific warfront. That's all it takes to get this type of a premade into a warfront, and it works very well but it is a game design flaw for reasons people probably can deduce for themselves.

    Why would people sync queue? Obviously so they can play with their friends, although I've never seen that argument used as reason for friends on opposing sides to sync queue so the argument is a little suspect (do people really have friends only on their own faction side?)

    The best advantage that sync queuing can provide is to increase the chance of being able to faceroll, and maybe even get to farm the other side because of better coordination. The losing side has traditionally and somewhat instinctively reacted by refusing to queue for that particular warfront for a while, forcing a long queue time for the facerolling faction.

    The warfront avoidance reaction to facerolling has recently seen a new response by the facerolling faction to being avoided. Now those that want to group together and sync queue, even across shards, for that purpose get a few "spotters" to normal queue into all warfronts. If their faction is losing but it can still take late coming entrants then the word goes out in voice communications (can not game chat between shards unless already in a dungeon or warfront) and everyone sync queues for that losing match. Poof, instant faceroll again.

    Technically speaking, both factions can do the same thing. But due to a huge game wide faction imbalance, more Defiant than Guardian, there are more people on Defiant side wanting to sync queue than there are on Guardian side (for most of the shard clusters). So the odds are in favor of there being more Defiant who sync queue (across shards or not) than there will be Guardians who do, and thus the odds are in favor of it being Defiant who will win any match of that type. Again, this is a game design flaw directly related to faction imbalance. Guardian tends to be composed of pugs, and if sync queuing is evident in a match it is usually Defiants doing it and they will win the match.

    The only logical response the game developers (and game management) can take is to remove factions as being the opponents in a match and instead let there be Team-A vs Team-B, where both teams are composed of both Defiant and Guardian players. People can still sync queue and "play with their friends" but they might end up on opposing teams, so I suppose that would be a QQ issue but the implementation would provide much more fun and balanced warfronts, and much faster queues in all warfronts for both factions.

    However, that is rocket science and it has a historically proven inability to launch.
    Specter
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  12. #12
    Rift Disciple
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    Default You're on the wrong shard

    I could have written this exact same thing except I would reverse the factions. I'm a Defiant on Seastone and the Guardians in that battle group do just fine. In fact, they do more than fine. Transfer shards before quitting. If you like PvP, you'll like being a Guardian on Seastone. I do understand your frustration when you feel like you're the only one trying in the WF...but that isn't Trion's fault. It the lame players you unfortunately queued with.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    Defiants have Clerics that actually heal.
    Except Tyaus. Love you.
    I'm quite partial to Klock, but I haven't seen him in wf's for ages.


    Den of Madness | Greybriar | Den of Badness | Derpwood

  14. #14
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    When I was low rank..iit was a L2P issue. You have to experiment. I've basically learned everything about my class through pvp not pve doing all five of my roles up to 51/15 then 44/22 then 38/28 all the way down to 28/12/16 combinations. Every single one! The best advice I can give the pvper is to learn your enemy--purple = mage green = cleric yellow = rogue and red = warrior. That is easy enough. Now find a role that can deal with each type solo or in group-- make it one of your five roles then learn to turn the tides. I'm constantly switching roles to gain advantage. If I find that one role is not doing too well I switch to another...if that fails then I switch. As soon as i enter a warfront i look to see my opponents then i make an educated guess what I should play.

    Obviously if you have healing role you don't really need to worry as the biggest problem is lack of heals. Roguess, clerics, mages all have heal type roles. I've been in warfronts where 2 bards made their whole raid come together with 0 clerics. It is all about knowing your enemy and not mindlessly playing one role.

    PVP is really fun because of lots of different experimentations..things you will never do in pve you do in pvp. If only rift wasnt so raid centralized and only way to ever be best is through raid gear I would give this game #1 MMO for pvp but if you have to go through other venues to be teh best at pvp then it will continue to suck. 4 piece Hk crystal and Relic gear is the things pvpers should actually be aiming for when it comes to gear.

    Trion needs to decide either if they make those top end gear accessible to everyone becasue PVP is big in this game or if they want to completely split pvpers from pve. The way I see it pure pvpers will continue to suffer until then. Just my two cents.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 12-24-2011 at 10:21 PM.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Top End Fear is Available to All

    Trion has made it very easy to get the top end gear. I'm not sure if you played WoW before Burning Crusade, but they had possibly the most demanding PvP grind ever in an MMO. I attempted to get the High Warlord gear set by grinding PvP battle grounds 45-50 hours a week for over 8 months. I never got High Warlord because others on my server were grinding more hours. If you put in that many hours in Rift, you could have a full set of all 4 classes with R8 gear and probably 4 Guardian/Defiant alts on other shards also in R8 gear. Rift is not an FPS where you arrive on day one and are given the best weapons and gear.

    I realize that there are now more casual players in MMOs now than there were when WoW launched. Developers are in a no win situation. If they adjust the game for the casual players, they risk the ire of the hardcore players. If they cater to the hardcore players, they will lose the casual players who probably are already subscribing to at least one other MMO.

    With the failures of so many MMOs that showed promise (Warhammer, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa, etc.) It may be that the world of MMO gaming has changed and the WoW phenomenon will never reoccur.

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