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Thread: Clerics are the only viable PvP healers

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    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Default Clerics are the only viable PvP healers

    It's been that way since launch, and it's only gotten worse as PvP has progressed.
    As it is, there's only two other souls that aren't cleric souls with actual "Healing" ability: Bards, and Chloromancers.
    I'm not as familiar with mages as I am with Rogues, but I know Chloros suffer the same way a Bard does, and this ought to be changed. While I'm not going to list any specific fixes or new abilities, I'm going to explain what's happening, why it's bad, and why it's murdering the metagame.

    The biggest disparity between any Cleric healer and a Bard/Chloromancer is that both the Mage and Rogue versions of healers heal by dealing damage (Albeit a few chloro abilities). Because of this, the farther a Bard or a Chloro moves up the PvP ladder, the worse their healing gets. Because of the valor reduction, it's akin to every single Bard and Chloro having a stack of Lingering Wounds up 24/7, whenever they heal--which stacks again with the next heal debuff inevitably applied as soon as they enter combat.

    This results in Chloros and Bards healing, without restriction and at all times, 46% less than a healing Cleric as soon as they even enter a battleground.
    That would be perfectly reasonable if Chloros/Bards healed as much as Clerics do, but the fact of the matter is that they don't. Even while damaging someone without any valor gear, a Cleric will still inevitably outheal and Bard or a Chloro, and with much more range of motion and utility.
    Clerics have loads of passives tied to their healing, like passive cleanses (Mark of Purification), damage boosts (Rolling with Punches), and damage reduction (Protect the Flock, Reinforce). And they're the only healing class with defensive cooldowns (Healing Invocation, Healer's Haste, Overload, Detaunt).
    Just as well, Clerics are the only class that can apply HoTs, or pre-heal, essentially. This makes them by far the only viable pocket healer in PvP.

    Without question, Clerics are the best healers--they're lightyears ahead of any other class, which I'm perfectly fine with, but they also put out the same numbers of DPS. Since I'm here to talk about healing, I'm not going to go into the semantics of DPS, but I can tell you that anyone with a brain knows how hard Cabalists and Inquisitors hit.
    Essentially, because Clerics are the only viable healer yet can also DPS as well as any other class, this shifts the PvP metagame way too much towards "Whoever has the most Clerics wins". The aforementioned statement isn't true for a few reasons, namely CC and healing debuffs, but it moves RIFT PvP in general too close to comfort to that statement being true.

    Because a Cleric can either go DPS or healing, when each side of a battleground has 15 DPS, 3 of which are Clerics, the side who's Clerics go healing will inevitably win. When one side of the spectrum of DPS:Healing is weighted towards a specific side, (in this case DPS) someone who shifts to the other side is exponentially better than extra weight on the other, assuming equal gear and skill. This, is exemplified in PUGs, which let's face it--are the majority of RIFT PvP.
    In essence, Clerics dominate Raid, Pocket, and any other form of healing in PvP by a margin so much it's like comparing the DPS of a 51 Void Knight to a Pyro/Dom. This needs to be fixed.

    To fix this, Cleric healing either needs to be toned down (An easy fix, this is how you've dealt with DPS in PvE since 1.0) or other versions of healing need to be toned up for PvP. I would strongly recommend the latter.
    Last edited by Zaros; 12-20-2011 at 01:27 PM.
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    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    I can speak confidently about bards and only sort of speculate about mages healing.

    Bard def doesn't get the green cross icon and only the purple flag for a reason. Yes bard numbers can add up but their ability to be substantial without another healer present is very minimal. A bards healing is truly support healing. A solo bard healing is what it is, and it typically just might buy a team a few more moments, but it's not going to pull the weight you want it to.

    Mages I always felt were held back by mostly having to damage the enemy to heal. Which means they have to be within battle range to do their job whereas a cleric can stand back and pump out the heals without even being in range of the enemy persay. I know little about mages but, they do indeed give the mages the green cross icon if spec'd right so I suspect the game intends for mages to be much more substantial healers than a bard (and they are imo, id rather a solo mage healing than a solo bard).

    Aside from some heavy aoe'ing though a cleric doesn't really touch the overall viability and potential of mage/rogue damage output. Which in turn you can say mage and rogues can't even really touch the overall viability and potential of a healing cleric. They just have way more tools at disposal.

    Guess the mage healing thing to me is still new though in this game. The way they can swing the pendulum from healing capability to damage output or land somewhere in the middle of them both. IMO they should have just gone the bard route with mages and made them more of a supportive heal with all the same DPS options. I guess they threw mage the healer spec because they gave rogues the tank spec. Would sort of counter the overall calling potentials.
    Last edited by Violacea; 12-20-2011 at 01:33 PM.

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    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    Aside from some heavy aoe'ing though a cleric doesn't really touch the overall viability and potential of mage/rogue damage output. Which in turn you can say mage and rogues can't even really touch the overall viability and potential of a healing cleric. They just have way more tools at disposal.
    I disagree completely. A competent Inquisitor is just as deadly as any Marksman or Pyro, not to mention how easy it is to pick up more self healing than a Bard or Chloro ever will by dropping a few points in Justicar, or even just 0 point Sentinel.

    I'm not saying their damage is overpowered, I think their damage is fine--but being the best healers by miles and miles and having the same DPS as any other class just doesn't fit.
    Last edited by Zaros; 12-20-2011 at 01:40 PM.
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    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    Wait.. what? Clerics can heal? I thought they were strictly dps?


    Den of Madness | Greybriar | Den of Badness | Derpwood

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    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlice View Post
    Wait.. what? Clerics can heal? I thought they were strictly dps?
    That's only Guardians >.>
    ~Quiescent

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    Plane Walker Skyfoxy's Avatar
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    This results in Chloros and Bards healing, without restriction and at all times, 46% less than a healing Cleric as soon as they even enter a battleground.
    ok
    2011-12-08

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    Ascendant Charlice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    That's only Guardians >.>
    At least Guardians can clear their inbox.


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    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfoxy View Post
    46% is a percent, not a static number. You're missing the point.
    And believe me, screenshots is not the way to contradict this thread. The reason you have a screenshot of that BG is because you were top healing.
    Last edited by Zaros; 12-20-2011 at 02:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfoxy View Post
    Aw man, I thought I'd get in here before someone posted an incredibly misleading Port Scion scoreboard...

    Chloro healing is incredibly deceptive. Because it's effectively always aoe, you end up with some severely padded stats in any aoe-heavy situation. Scion, especially, tends to be an aoe ****storm, so the class that never stops aoe healing can really pile on the numbers.

    But how much of that healing was critical? How much of it actually saved a person? How much of it protected an objective or carrier? Very little.

    Chloros also have a small handful of powerful instants on cool down, which gives them the appearance of being good single-target or burst healers. This, too, is misleading. Once those cds are gone, the sustained healing output is mediocre at best. You can't roll hots, you can't cross-heal (because LGV limits us) - you just run out of buttons to press about 10-15 seconds into a fight.

    I've healed in pvp on both callings. I can actually put up bigger numbers on my chloro, but I'll win more games for my team with my cleric.

  10. #10
    Plane Walker Skyfoxy's Avatar
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    46% is a percent, not a static number. You're missing the point.
    Looks like. Still, we have no choice. Since MoA, on warfronts either someone of us mages and rogues will roll chloros and bards instead of drilling the heavens, either we leave ourselves with no healing at all. I'm ok with that, but what bothers me most is the fact that I rarely see cleric who prefers actual healing over dps. And those clerics who choose healing after all, are mostly higher ranks, whlie those who prefer doing dpses are, well, P1-4. This is indeed mystery for me.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Zaros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfoxy View Post
    Looks like. Still, we have no choice. Since MoA, on warfronts either someone of us mages and rogues will roll chloros and bards instead of drilling the heavens, either we leave ourselves with no healing at all. I'm ok with that, but what bothers me most is the fact that I rarely see cleric who prefers actual healing over dps. And those clerics who choose healing after all, are mostly higher ranks, whlie those who prefer doing dpses are, well, P1-4. This is indeed mystery for me.
    Exactly. And what's the cookie cutter response when you tell the P2 DPS Cleric to go heals? "Why don't you."
    The fact of the matter is, that P2 healing Cleric probably would put out more healing than my P8 Bard, and tenfold the efficiency.

    Other classes need to be viable healers.
    ~Quiescent

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Skyfoxy's Avatar
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    Chloro healing is incredibly deceptive. Because it's effectively always aoe, you end up with some severely padded stats in any aoe-heavy situation. Scion, especially, tends to be an aoe ****storm, so the class that never stops aoe healing can really pile on the numbers.
    Yep, you're right. :P Nevertheless, that was notable day, because most of the time i was somewhere 2-3 in healing done(not counting wfs when first place was on... chlorodom, because obviously those were awful scenes).
    And last weekend me and my 2 P8 sc guildbros with P6 senticar guildbro tried to go for some scion steamroll. My synth target literally died only when defiants outgunned us and when there was real pro MM against us. So chlor has it's uses. And I like chlor. Find it good. Somewhat jelly about wardinels or DoL mashers, but that's ok. Clerics are expected to do best heals out there.
    Another problem is when they refuse to do it... but that depends on person I think. I've seen P7 or P8 cleric who entered on warfront in dps, looked at our miserable bunch and immidiately switched to heals. And we won. If you read this forums, respect you for that, man.

  13. #13
    Sword of Telara Feid's Avatar
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    chloro healing for me is hit or miss ina wf. (even with apvp soul buffing the heals) either it does awsome. or compleate poop.
    Now known as Menthol of galena.
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  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara
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    Let me put my thoughts this way: when my mage was R6, I rolled a cleric alt strictly to heal in PvP. My mage is now R8, and the cleric is R5, I would still only use the cleric to heal in PvP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    I disagree completely. A competent Inquisitor is just as deadly as any Marksman or Pyro, not to mention how easy it is to pick up more self healing than a Bard or Chloro ever will by dropping a few points in Justicar, or even just 0 point Sentinel.

    I'm not saying their damage is overpowered, I think their damage is fine--but being the best healers by miles and miles and having the same DPS as any other class just doesn't fit.
    Yeah 400 heals ftw and heal debuffed 200...

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