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Thread: Dominator Ability Deny

  1. #16
    Ascendant Bleeds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    See my 44 point comment.

    - Vybz
    What soul do I spend 44 points in as a mage to get my useful purge?

    Again if it's the fact that Deny's only 10 in, fine make it higher, but honestly that's not gonna make a difference to 99% of dom based specs anyway, so fairly moot.

    But if you're arguing that the spell itself is OP no matter where in the tree it is, I think the Eradicate comparison is extremely poignant.
    Last edited by Bleeds; 12-13-2011 at 12:09 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    See my 44 point comment.

    - Vybz
    Who cares what place it is in the soul if it is op it will get nerfed regardless.... I don't much mind it anymore as MM go splat so easy it is a joke.
    Last edited by Undrsiege; 12-13-2011 at 12:07 AM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    I see your 10 points and I raise you 44.

    - Vybz
    Name a purge that mages have for 44 points to has absolutely no cooldown.
    If Deny didn't have a cooldown the comparison might make sense.


    Who cares what place it is in the soul if it is op it will get nerfed regardless.... I don't much mind it anymore as MM go splat so easy it is a joke.
    Higher cost for an ability prevents broken hybridization.
    Last edited by Aguni; 12-13-2011 at 12:09 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    What soul do I spend 44 points in as a mage to get my useful purge?
    Honestly, I don't care either way. My comment was for the idiot that brought eradicate into this.

    Apples and Oranges. So your 10 point ability doesn't do what my 44 point ability does. QQ.

    You don't see me asking for Cleanse Soul to have a 10 sec cd, right?!

    I mean, isn't that what Deny is minus the immunity? Tee-hee. Even better, let me cast cleanse soul on an ally.

    Apples and Oranges.

    As for the other guy complaining about NB/RS. Just LoL @ You. Unless he specced for Cleanse Soul as well he's dead against a "Competent" Mage.

    - Vybz
    Last edited by Nightwish; 12-13-2011 at 12:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    Honestly, I don't care either way. My comment was for the idiot that brought eradicate into this.

    Apples and Oranges. So your 10 point ability doesn't do what my 44 point ability does. QQ.

    - Vybz
    So how about the second part of my previous post:

    "Again if it's the fact that Deny's only 10 in, fine make it higher, but honestly that's not gonna make a difference to 99% of dom based specs anyway, so fairly moot.

    But if you're arguing that the spell itself is OP no matter where in the tree it is, I think the Eradicate comparison is extremely poignant."

  6. #21
    Ascendant Nightwish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    So how about the second part of my previous post:

    "Again if it's the fact that Deny's only 10 in, fine make it higher, but honestly that's not gonna make a difference to 99% of dom based specs anyway, so fairly moot.

    But if you're arguing that the spell itself is OP no matter where in the tree it is, I think the Eradicate comparison is extremely poignant."
    You're missing my point entirely and just tunnel visioning on defending Mages.

    "I don't care either way."

    "My comment was for the guy that brought Eradicate into this."

    X points vs Y points = Apples and Oranges.

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  7. #22
    Ascendant Aguni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    Honestly, I don't care either way. My comment was for the idiot that brought eradicate into this.
    Yes, because pointing out the flaw in the logic surely makes me an idiot.
    Totally was not a case of you simply not understanding it at all.

    Point is, every calling has one ability or another that can be considered OP, until you consider what actually goes on in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    You don't see me asking for Cleanse Soul to have a 10 sec cd, right?!

    I mean, isn't that what Deny is minus the immunity? Tee-hee. Even better, let me cast cleanse soul on an ally.
    No you're thinking phase shift.
    Which is channeled.
    Breaks upon movement (cleanse soul doesn't)
    And requires 20 points into AM.

    I would not be bothered if rogues wanted a version of cleanse soul with a 10sec cd without immunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    Apples and Oranges.
    Comparing CONCEPTS.
    Not the actual ability.
    I am sorry that something so simple flew over your head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    As for the other guy complaining about NB/RS. Just LoL @ You. Unless he specced for Cleanse Soul as well he's dead against a "Competent" Mage.

    - Vybz
    Here is a hint: Not every mage runs a spec based around killing Nb/Rs.
    Funny stuff right? Right?

    I honestly think people skim through what is said and just go on keywords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    You're missing my point entirely and just tunnel visioning on defending Mages.

    "I don't care either way."

    "My comment was for the guy that brought Eradicate into this."

    X points vs Y points = Apples and Oranges.

    - Vybz
    Except he isn't.
    He is pointing out the same thing which is the concept of the matter, not an actual comparison of abilities.
    Again, stop skimming and actual comprehend the argument being made.
    Last edited by Aguni; 12-13-2011 at 12:35 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    You're missing my point entirely and just tunnel visioning on defending Mages.

    "I don't care either way."

    "My comment was for the guy that brought Eradicate into this."

    X points vs Y points = Apples and Oranges.

    - Vybz
    Fair enough. But I do think they're somewhat apples to apples, regardless of where in the tree they are, they're both fairly OP abilities. Deny is ridiculously good, eradicate is ridiculously good. They both pretty easily negate class-defining abilities - neither are subject to the same limitations that other classes self-cleanses/purges are subject to.

    So point being, if rogues are gonna get THAT shiny toy, I'm going to disagree with nerf threads for THIS shiny toy.
    Last edited by Bleeds; 12-13-2011 at 12:35 AM.

  9. #24
    Ascendant Nightwish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aguni View Post
    Yes, because pointing out the flaw in the logic surely makes me an idiot.
    Totally was not a case of you simply not understanding it at all.

    Point is, every calling has one ability or another that can be considered OP, until you consider what actually goes on in PvP.


    No you're thinking phase shift.
    Which is channeled.
    Breaks upon movement (cleanse soul doesn't)
    And requires 20 points into AM.

    I would not be bothered if rogues wanted a version of cleanse soul with a 10sec cd without immunity.


    Comparing CONCEPTS.
    Not the actual ability.
    I am sorry that something so simple flew over your head.



    Here is a hint: Not every mage runs a spec based around killing Nb/Rs.
    Funny stuff right? Right?

    I honestly think people skim through what is said and just go on keywords.



    Except he isn't.
    He is pointing out the same thing which is the concept of the matter, not an actual comparison of abilities.
    Again, stop skimming and actual comprehend the argument being made.
    I'll make this short and sweet. You're an idiot and you're bad.

    APPLES & ORANGES.

    I know right, TWO abilities that do the same thing but COST DIFFERENT AMOUNTS aren't the SAME.

    Oh yeah. If a NB/RS is killing you. YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleeds View Post
    Fair enough. But I do think they're somewhat apples to apples, regardless of where in the tree they are, they're both fairly OP abilities. Deny is ridiculously good, eradicate is ridiculously good. They both pretty easily negate class-defining abilities - neither are subject to the same limitations that other classes self-cleanses/purges are subject to.

    So point being, if rogues are gonna get THAT shiny toy, I'm going to disagree with nerf threads for THIS shiny toy.
    As I stated, I didn't care either way. But don't bring my class ability that costs 4x as many points into this stupid thread. Then that'll force my hand and I'll have to make comments to make people like Aguni feel stupid.

    - Vybz
    Last edited by Nightwish; 12-13-2011 at 12:43 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowprison View Post
    Don't worry, mages who want to keep their OP going will come in and tell you that Dom is fine.
    I'm sure most mages would gladly trade their ability to spec for deny @ 10 points for the ability to spec for stealth @ 4 points.

    This kind of comparisons is pointless.

    One could also say "mages are the masters of magic so their ability to control magic is higher", makes sense that they're stronger at dispelling (then again rogues spamming offensive dispells ability is miles ahead of everyone else's).

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thormael View Post
    I'm sure most mages would gladly trade their ability to spec for deny @ 10 points for the ability to spec for stealth @ 4 points.

    This kind of comparisons is pointless.

    One could also say "mages are the masters of magic so their ability to control magic is higher", makes sense that they're stronger at dispelling (then again rogues spamming offensive dispells ability is miles ahead of everyone else's).
    As the damage is already done and I'm still here:

    If only Rogues could use Eradicate to remove Curable Harmful Effects from their Allies.

    Apples and Oranges.

    Let.

    It.

    Go.

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    If only Rogues could use Eradicate to remove Curable Harmful Effects from their Allies.
    Apples and Oranges.
    Let.
    It.
    Go.
    - Vybz
    You didn't read my post.
    I'm not comparing deny & eradicate, I said "rogues spamming offensive dispells ability is miles ahead of everyone else's".
    As in Eradicate vs Spell Sunder vs Purge vs Consumption.

    I know Eradicate "defenders" rely on the 44 points argument.
    Never saw them complain about Riftstalker's Planar Attraction being 44 root in RS, vs similar abilities for wars that are @ 14 root.

    If MM was sorta magic / antimagic at least there could be some kind of point for this ability being so much better than all others.
    I think we all know it's OP not because it's 44 root, but because Trion needed to improve MM's popularity when they added it, while nerfing cleric (especially hot spreading wardens).
    There's no denying the ability is too good, wether it's 44 high or not.
    It'd be too good if it required 51 points also...

  13. #28
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    I'm confused, don't Warriors have the exact same ability? Spellbreaker removes all debuffs on a 10s CD, despite what the tooltip states, that's how it works.

    As for Rogues complaining, I don't really understand how you can call Deny overpowered when Rogues are blessed with what most people would agree is the most overpowered debuff in the game. Mages can cleanse Fell Blades / VM once every 10s, while it can be reapplied and abused every GCD. Seems reasonable right?

    Deny wouldn't even be necessary if not for the ridiculous amount of passively applied debuffs and CC thrown around Warfronts, but since that's never going to change I don't see the problem with having a counter to it.
    Saved@Briarcliff
    I play a Mage, just throwing it out there.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmprov View Post
    I'm confused, don't Warriors have the exact same ability? Spellbreaker removes all debuffs on a 10s CD, despite what the tooltip states, that's how it works.

    As for Rogues complaining, I don't really understand how you can call Deny overpowered when Rogues are blessed with what most people would agree is the most overpowered debuff in the game. Mages can cleanse Fell Blades / VM once every 10s, while it can be reapplied and abused every GCD. Seems reasonable right?

    Deny wouldn't even be necessary if not for the ridiculous amount of passively applied debuffs and CC thrown around Warfronts, but since that's never going to change I don't see the problem with having a counter to it.
    Most sensible post so far and sums things up nicely.
    Sidestep - Mage - Riptalon

  15. #30
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    Mages and Clerics have a full cleanse, rendering debuff stacking classes neutered.

    Rogues have Eradicate, rendering colossal amounts of life-saving/burst generating cooldowns worthless (as well as countering other buffs entirely).

    Wars have an uncleansable passively applying healing debuff.

    Guess what? All classes have powerful abilities not available to the others which others may perceive as OP! Shock horror, we're in a class-based game!
    Mage PvP build guides:
    Sc/Pyro - mobile DPS, ChloroChon - support for low ranks

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