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Thread: Rift PvP Woes - Feedback [Long]

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    Default Rift PvP Woes - Feedback [Long]

    Trion

    First and foremost, allow me to say that I think you've done an incredible job with this game thus far. The first 8-10 levels within the entry zones are amazing for both factions. The storylines are epic. The graphics are realistic yet still fantasy and can test the limits of even top-end systems (in a good way). Although I've only done DH, GP, GSB and RoS, from what I've seen, the raiding is very fun, challenging and well-designed. On top of all this, your development team releases new, quality content at a pace more rapid than I've ever seen since I started playing MMOs over a decade ago with Ragnarok Online.

    While my subscription will indefinitely remain open so I can log on for raids, artifact gathering and the occasional Rift or World Event, I wanted to share some constructive, albeit subjective, feedback regarding why I'll never be able to call Rift my lone MMO and what I feel may send some away from your wonderful game. Obviously, I'm speaking of the PvP in this game.

    You've gone on record in the past stating that this game is focused on PvE and that PvP is a secondary offering for entertainment. While this is perfectly fine, there are countless millions of MMO subscribers who play MMOs strictly FOR the PvP. While I'm not among them, per se, I do understand their position having an extensive, competitive PvP background myself.

    In short, the PvP in this game seems unsynchronized, laggy and very random. Part of this is due to the large quantity of possible, viable builds available for each of the callings which leads to far less of an ability to "prepare" for what abilities you might be facing in a particular PvP encounter. However, the main culprit with respect to Rift's PvP, for me, is the lagginess and unsynchronized nature of it all. Let me give some examples from WoW - only because it is largely considered the benchmark for MMO PvP. Regardless of what can be said of the Arena system and class balance, it is undeniable that WoW's PvP is among the most fluid and crisp PvP available from a functional standpoint if nothing else.

    Take a WoW Rogue for example. When I land Cheap Shot on a target, they immediately freeze in their tracks. The animation of Cheap Shot is perfectly in sync with the "click" sound effect it makes and, even still, is perfectly in sync with the stun, swirl effect animating above the affected target's head. After two seconds, the Rogue lands a Kidney Shot that also lands cleanly but the target trinkets this stun and immediately starts moving away from you. Everything seems instantaneous, synchronized and fluid. It allows for PvP battles to be almost a "chess match" wherein you are reacting in real time with your opponent, attempting to think two to three steps ahead to gain an advantage.

    In Rift, I (and many others whom have posted in a previous thread I made on this topic) don't get this feeling. I land Paralyzing Strike on a target and they still scoot forward perhaps a half meter or so. The sound effect the ability makes does not seem in line with the effect itself and it makes it very difficult to time anything properly. The target gets out of Paralyzing Strike so I attempt to put Malicious Strike up but it takes two to three key presses before the ability is able to be used despite, on my screen, me being practically on top of my opponent. Once Malicious Strike finally lands, it only lasts a second or two given the nature of Rift's diminishing returns system. I chase after the target trying to pump damage into them but I'm unable to hit them consistently and it throws off the timing of every ability I'd typically use at opportune times.

    The above is the best I can do to explain the problem and this unsynchronized, random nature of Rift PvP is what keeps me out of Warfronts indefinitely and keeps me going back to WoW just to get my PvP fix. Eventually, I'm going to have to make a choice. WoW's PvE is good but I prefer Rift's. However, would WoW's PvE be good enough to draw me away in light of the PvP being vastly more fun? While I can't say now, I wanted to explain this to you as I love this game and want it to succeed indefinitely.

    Lastly, I want to address a couple misconceptions that I know would come up otherwise:

    First and foremost, WoW's PvP is not the only PvP in recent games that I prefer over Rift's. Aion is another example of a game with crisp and fluid PvP that, to me, is far more enjoyable. The problem with Aion is that it is a tedious grind in every respect and I found the PvE to be an unenjoyable ability spam-a-thon.

    Secondly, I am running on a broadband connection with excellent dl and ul rates. Further, I am playing on a near top-of-the-line system for gaming that uses an HD Radeon 6970 2GB GPU, an overclocked i5 2500K CPU at 4.0ghz per core, liquid cooling, several in-case fans for extra cooling and 8GB of DDR3 RipJaws RAM. Neither latency nor frame per second are the issue here. My latency to the server I play on hovers between 70 and 90 while my FPS run at 50+ with almost all settings maxed.


    Anyway, I know this has been long but I'd appreciate some community feedback.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Synovia; 11-07-2011 at 08:04 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Drakinor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    Trion

    First and foremost, allow me to say that I think you've done an incredible job with this game thus far. The first 8-10 levels within the entry zones are amazing for both factions. The storylines are epic. The graphics are realistic yet still fantasy and can test the limits of even top-end systems (in a good way). Although I've only done DH, GP, GSB and RoS, from what I've seen, the raiding is very fun, challenging and well-designed. On top of all this, your development team releases new, quality content at a pace more rapid than I've ever seen since I started playing MMOs over a decade ago with Ragnarok Online.

    While my subscription will indefinitely remain open so I can log on for raids, artifact gathering and the occasional Rift or World Event, I wanted to share some constructive, albeit subjective, feedback regarding why I'll never be able to call Rift my lone MMO and what I feel may send some away from your wonderful game. Obviously, I'm speaking of the PvP in this game.

    You've gone on record in the past stating that this game is focused on PvE and that PvP is a secondary offering for entertainment. While this is perfectly fine, there are countless millions of MMO subscribers who play MMOs strictly FOR the PvP. While I'm not among them, per se, I do understand their position having an extensive, competitive PvP background myself.

    In short, the PvP in this game seems unsynchronized, laggy and very random. Part of this is due to the large quantity of possible, viable builds available for each of the callings which leads to far less of an ability to "prepare" for what abilities you might be facing in a particular PvP encounter. However, the main culprit with respect to Rift's PvP, for me, is the lagginess and unsynchronized nature of it all. Let me give some examples from WoW - only because it is largely considered the benchmark for MMO PvP. Regardless of what can be said of the Arena system and class balance, it is undeniable that WoW's PvP is among the most fluid and crisp PvP available from a functional standpoint if nothing else.

    Take a WoW Rogue for example. When I land Cheap Shot on a target, they immediately freeze in their tracks. The animation of Cheap Shot is perfectly in sync with the "click" sound effect it makes and, even still, is perfectly in sync with the stun, swirl effect animating above the affected target's head. After two seconds, the Rogue lands a Kidney Shot that also lands cleanly but the target trinkets this stun and immediately starts moving away from you. Everything seems instantaneous, synchronized and fluid. It allows for PvP battles to be almost a "chess match" wherein you are reacting in real time with your opponent, attempting to think two to three steps ahead to gain an advantage.

    In Rift, I (and many others whom have posted in a previous thread I made on this topic) don't get this feeling. I land Paralyzing Strike on a target and they still scoot forward perhaps a half meter or so. The sound effect the ability makes does not seem in line with the effect itself and it makes it very difficult to time anything properly. The target gets out of Paralyzing Strike so I attempt to put Malicious Strike up but it takes two to three key presses before the ability is able to be used despite, on my screen, me being practically on top of my opponent. Once Malicious Strike finally lands, it only lasts a second or two given the nature of Rift's diminishing returns system. I chase after the target trying to pump damage into them but I'm unable to hit them consistently and it throws off the timing of every ability I'd typically use at opportune times.

    The above is the best I can do to explain the problem and this unsynchronized, random nature of Rift PvP is what keeps me out of Warfronts indefinitely and keeps me going back to WoW just to get my PvP fix. Eventually, I'm going to have to make a choice. WoW's PvE is good but I prefer Rift's. However, would WoW's PvE be good enough to draw me away in light of the PvP being vastly more fun? While I can't say now, I wanted to explain this to you as I love this game and want it to succeed indefinitely.

    Lastly, I want to address a couple misconceptions that I know would come up otherwise:

    First and foremost, WoW's PvP is not the only PvP in recent games that I prefer over Rift's. Aion is another example of a game with crisp and fluid PvP that, to me, is far more enjoyable. The problem with Aion is that it is a tedious grind in every respect and I found the PvE to be an unenjoyable ability spam-a-thon.

    Secondly, I am running on a broadband connection with excellent dl and ul rates. Further, I am playing on a near top-of-the-line system for gaming that uses an HD Radeon 6970 2GB GPU, an overclocked i5 2500K CPU at 4.0ghz per core, liquid cooling, several in-case fans for extra cooling and 8GB of DDR3 RipJaws RAM. Neither latency nor frame per second are the issue here. My latency to the server I play on hovers between 70 and 90 while my FPS run at 50+ with almost all settings maxed.


    Anyway, I know this has been long but I'd appreciate some community feedback.

    Thanks!
    Ill admit I just skimmed your post, but if you play mmos solely for pvp your only setting yourself up for disappointment. Most mmos are PvE based with a PvP sidenote (EVE is the only one I have played that revolves heavily around PvP) While I will admit the PvP in this game isnt as flashy as WoWs I can actually enjoy it 100x more for 1 reason, the hordes of elitist trolls in wows pvp arent here. Every now and then some *** hat will bark orders but usually the chat is very focused on the game itself, and I pvp a good but when I need a break from quests, dungeons, rifts etc. But to those who are here for pvp only, you got the wrong game by far and its not going to change.
    All your whining and elitism makes me laugh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakinor View Post
    Ill admit I just skimmed your post, but if you play mmos solely for pvp your only setting yourself up for disappointment. Most mmos are PvE based with a PvP sidenote (EVE is the only one I have played that revolves heavily around PvP) While I will admit the PvP in this game isnt as flashy as WoWs I can actually enjoy it 100x more for 1 reason, the hordes of elitist trolls in wows pvp arent here. Every now and then some *** hat will bark orders but usually the chat is very focused on the game itself, and I pvp a good but when I need a break from quests, dungeons, rifts etc. But to those who are here for pvp only, you got the wrong game by far and its not going to change.
    I do agree with you wholeheartedly about the trolls and general @#%!^-bags not existing in such a number within Rift. That definitely is a plus.

    As for the remainder of your comment, note that I realize this is a game focused on PvE - and this is something Rift does extremely well - but I don't feel your argument that PvP in MMOs is secondary to be valid. PvP in WoW is almost on a leveling setting with PvE and, to many if not most, Aion's PvP is the crowning achievement of the game and what everyone participates in at level 55.

    Lastly, it's not the "flashiness" of WoW PvP that makes it more intriguing and enjoyable. Rift's PvP seems just as "flashy" to me. The issue is the unsynchronized and random nature of it wherein I feel that no amount of skill can overcome the core, mechanical issues.

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    Sword of Telara Feid's Avatar
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    very well constructed post. it deserves a full read. i can agree. For example when i flicker away from a target i will still somtimes take 500-600 dmg from a finisher that the rogue casted on me before i moved. or i move andi will be the full distance away with 2k health and flop dead right as flicker lands me. this is quite frustrating. i think the core of this problem comes with the servers stabilities. when more people get on rifts servers it directly effects the latency hard ive noticed. i run a 40m connection and have a computer cpaable of running rift in ultra at 30 fps. steady, i run it custom settings for pvp. and i know for a fact the lag increase albeit small isnt on my end its the servers.

    ex running5 /5 i notice little to no latency in the bg it runs smooth and clean.
    10/10 it starts getting a little choppy with people jumping around a little.
    now on the 20/20 maps the server latency i notice spikes to over 400 from time to time. whilst in the 5/5 i will be at 40 ms i think it is a server issue at this point in time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feid View Post
    very well constructed post. it deserves a full read. i can agree. For example when i flicker away from a target i will still somtimes take 500-600 dmg from a finisher that the rogue casted on me before i moved. or i move andi will be the full distance away with 2k health and flop dead right as flicker lands me. this is quite frustrating. i think the core of this problem comes with the servers stabilities. when more people get on rifts servers it directly effects the latency hard ive noticed. i run a 40m connection and have a computer cpaable of running rift in ultra at 30 fps. steady, i run it custom settings for pvp. and i know for a fact the lag increase albeit small isnt on my end its the servers.

    ex running5 /5 i notice little to no latency in the bg it runs smooth and clean.
    10/10 it starts getting a little choppy with people jumping around a little.
    now on the 20/20 maps the server latency i notice spikes to over 400 from time to time. whilst in the 5/5 i will be at 40 ms i think it is a server issue at this point in time.

    First off, nice post Synovia, think it deserves a bit more attention. Second of all, I've had similar problems in both PvP and Pve, but it's more noticeable in Pve. I'll blink out of range of a bosses effect where you have to distance yourself (Cyclonix in CC comes to mind), and I'll find my corpse sitting right next to where other people are standing alive and well. <rant> IF MY CORPSE IS NEXT TO SOMEONE ALIVE THEN HOW DID I GET HIT>_> </rant>

    Really, it gets frustrating, and when similar things happen in PvP, where I'm dying from a hit thats landing when i'm no longer in melee range, it becomes harder for everyone to actually try and play with some sort of skill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuggernongy View Post
    First off, nice post Synovia, think it deserves a bit more attention. Second of all, I've had similar problems in both PvP and Pve, but it's more noticeable in Pve. I'll blink out of range of a bosses effect where you have to distance yourself (Cyclonix in CC comes to mind), and I'll find my corpse sitting right next to where other people are standing alive and well. <rant> IF MY CORPSE IS NEXT TO SOMEONE ALIVE THEN HOW DID I GET HIT>_> </rant>

    Really, it gets frustrating, and when similar things happen in PvP, where I'm dying from a hit thats landing when i'm no longer in melee range, it becomes harder for everyone to actually try and play with some sort of skill.
    Thanks, Tuggernongy. I appreciate the feedback and can understand your position fully. Further, I think you've touched on an important point in your last sentence: I think most want to improve and incorporate more and more skill into their PvP as there is no better feeling than having a great battle with a competent opponent and coming out on top with the realization that you managed to outplay them this time around. However, as you've alluded to, the ability to utilize "skill" in Rift PvP is greatly diminished by the random and laggy nature of the encounters themselves.

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    Shameless bump

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    Another shameless self-bump!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synovia View Post
    Another shameless self-bump!
    BOOMP!

    /10char

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    'only because it is largely considered the benchmark for MMO PvP'

    Dark Age of Camelot maybe, WOW . . . no way

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    Yeah DAOC is the benchmark of pvp in my opinion and it amazes me that no one has copied the most simple things DAOC laid out.
    #1 - 3 factions for balance
    #2 - Captures points in open world pvp( some game companies have figured this part out)
    #3 - Abilities that make others react in pvp to create a strategy( some games also got this down)

    If rift would implement at least #2 and#3 the game would get a lot better. Rift has a unique factor most games dont a diverse soul system to creaet unique builds with for team pvp but they left out the part where you will be running around open world in these premade groups.

    We need capture points(forts) to prmote pvp and CC in the game needs retweaking so cc can be used more strategically. Im not saying cc that can be used excessively either

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noshadowking View Post
    Yeah DAOC is the benchmark of pvp in my opinion and it amazes me that no one has copied the most simple things DAOC laid out.
    #1 - 3 factions for balance
    #2 - Captures points in open world pvp( some game companies have figured this part out)
    #3 - Abilities that make others react in pvp to create a strategy( some games also got this down)

    If rift would implement at least #2 and#3 the game would get a lot better. Rift has a unique factor most games dont a diverse soul system to creaet unique builds with for team pvp but they left out the part where you will be running around open world in these premade groups.

    We need capture points(forts) to prmote pvp and CC in the game needs retweaking so cc can be used more strategically. Im not saying cc that can be used excessively either
    In saying that WoW is the benchmark in terms of PvP, I am not speaking to balance but rather to how "crisp" and "fluid" the PvP in WoW is. Whether or not WoW PvP is "good" is completely subjective and can't really be quantified. I'm simply talking response time from the server, synchronization with abilities and the overall fluidity of PvP combat. Nothing in the history of MMOs quite matches WoW in this and only this regard.

    You do bring up a great point though about reactive abilities though. I agree wholeheartedly and it is something that I don't find too much of in Rift. As stated, PvP feels like an ability spam-a-thon and, while I have no desire to see spammable CC in this game such as is the case with WoW, there does need to be more available to which one must react.

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    Shameless bump

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    WoW what? who cares.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheven View Post
    WoW what? who cares.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at.

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