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Thread: What if new players actually PvP'd, instead of asking for better gear?

  1. #1
    Prophet of Telara
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    Default What if new players actually PvP'd, instead of asking for better gear?

    Would they learn more about their class?

    Would they learn which non-PvP gear is available and useful in a Warfront?

    Would they be more challenging in Warfront fights than a player who just resigns themselves to being fodder?

    Would Trion have more time to implement new PvP content instead of constantly revising the existing content?

    Discuss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaedyan View Post
    Would they learn more about their class?

    Would they learn which non-PvP gear is available and useful in a Warfront?

    Would they be more challenging in Warfront fights than a player who just resigns themselves to being fodder?

    Would Trion have more time to implement new PvP content instead of constantly revising the existing content?

    Discuss.
    It's unthinkable.

    All of us current R8s started at R8, naturally. None of us started at rank 0, and learned how to play by going up against better opponents. None of us also experienced the sweet joy of attaining equal gear to our nemesis, and striking them down with our now superior skill.
    Last edited by Satiar; 10-13-2011 at 10:21 AM.
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    That would just be silly. Preposterous suggestion!
    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Rogues are completly fine to be honest.
    Quote Originally Posted by pro
    please stop qq about nerfs because i promise if u keep it up rift will shut down because they have no subribers and we will have wasted our money on a failed game simply because everyone was acting like little kids because they couldnt faceroll anyone and it actually took effort to kill them

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    I love how no one wants to hear this. If it doesn't involve getting something handed to me I ain't poastin.

    This game does not have PVPrs. EvE has PVPrs that would wipe the floor with this group of whiny qq babies. Cant wait to see you all on Tor crying your eyes out.
    Last edited by Wargawd; 10-13-2011 at 10:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaedyan View Post
    Would they learn more about their class?

    Would they learn which non-PvP gear is available and useful in a Warfront?

    Would they be more challenging in Warfront fights than a player who just resigns themselves to being fodder?

    Would Trion have more time to implement new PvP content instead of constantly revising the existing content?

    Discuss.
    Trion would save far more time if they simply removed nonsense like gearing from PvP, you already have it in PvE, you don't need needless gear progression repeated in PvP, where it should be irrelevant.

    Players will learn far less from doing PvP as a totally gimped character who can best "contribute" by spamming one / two skills or playing a build they won't actually bother playing once geared, than if they went in on a level playing field.

    PvP is supposed to be about player vs player and skill, not gear vs gear. Genuine PvPers want a level playing field, beating a guy who can barely fight back simply due to gear disparity is no satisfaction at all for anyone who isn't suffering from a psychological disorder.

    Guild Wars did PvP right (largely), that should be the model to follow (or at least along those lines).
    Last edited by Flimble; 10-13-2011 at 10:39 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaedyan View Post
    Would they learn more about their class?

    Would they learn which non-PvP gear is available and useful in a Warfront?

    Would they be more challenging in Warfront fights than a player who just resigns themselves to being fodder?

    Would Trion have more time to implement new PvP content instead of constantly revising the existing content?

    Discuss.
    no.
    no.
    no.
    no.


    Would they just give up as pvp fun is not being 1-2 shotted by better geared players. Or spending 5mins dpsing someone constantly and not seeing their health bar move at all?
    Yes.

    And will pvp die out as no new players can be bothered to go through a catch up phases based solely on time rather than skill?
    yes.

    Does rift pvp meet the following expression? Gear = timeplayed > skill
    yes



    Dont bother discussing.

  7. #7
    Rift Chaser Mad Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zetans View Post
    no.

    Would they just give up as pvp fun is not being 1-2 shotted by better geared players. Or spending 5mins dpsing someone constantly and not seeing their health bar move at all?
    Yes.

    And will pvp die out as no new players can be bothered to go through a catch up phases based solely on time rather than skill?
    yes.

    Does rift pvp meet the following expression? Gear = timeplayed > skill
    yes

    Dont bother discussing.
    No one gets one or two shot, if you do its a SC and you have been attacked multiple times already without noticing the debuff.

    MMOs as a whole reward time. They want your cash so the give you a sense of achievement by gear, an edge, etc. Most R8s get bored and reroll anyway, difference with them is they dont cry "QQ Nerf!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flimble View Post
    Trion would save far more time if they simply removed nonsense like gearing from PvP, you already have it in PvE, you don't need needless gear progression repeated in PvP, where it should be irrelevant.
    I'd agree with this but then the noobs would have all the classes nerfed, claiming that's now the reason they were owned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flimble View Post
    Players will learn far less from doing PvP as a totally gimped character who can best "contribute" by spamming one / two skills or playing a build they won't actually bother playing once geared, than if they went in on a level playing field.
    I love the level playing field argument. It never keeps me from getting focus fired though, so maybe players aren't getting your message?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flimble View Post
    PvP is supposed to be about player vs player and skill, not gear vs gear. Genuine PvPers want a level playing field, beating a guy who can barely fight back simply due to gear disparity is no satisfaction at all for anyone who isn't suffering from a psychological disorder.
    I always thought PvP was about beating the other guy anyway you could. If it's just a math test, I'd be less enthusiastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flimble View Post
    Guild Wars did PvP right (largely), that should be the model to follow (or at least along those lines).
    Lol, premades were the first thing Rift PvPers had nerfed. I'm pretty sure they don't want the Guild Wars model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Dog View Post
    No one gets one or two shot, if you do its a SC and you have been attacked multiple times already without noticing the debuff.

    MMOs as a whole reward time. They want your cash so the give you a sense of achievement by gear, an edge, etc. Most R8s get bored and reroll anyway, difference with them is they dont cry "QQ Nerf!"
    No PvP sigil (common for low ranks) is 224 less valor, which is 11% less damage reduction.

    No pocket heals due to the fact that you are low rank disables you from getting constant 11% damage reduction from Cleric healers.

    HP of around 5k-6k.
    I can put out around 5,5k in 1 time frame against this kind of targets. Followed by 500-1000 hit/crit.
    Ip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wargawd View Post
    I love how no one wants to hear this. If it doesn't involve getting something handed to me I ain't poastin.

    This game does not have PVPrs. EvE has PVPrs that would wipe the floor with this group of whiny qq babies. Cant wait to see you all on Tor crying your eyes out.
    And FPS games have players that would wipe the floor with MMO players MMO's do not really challenge the individual that much. Anyone who's played in high stake FPS tournaments think MMO pvp is a joke. It's fun...but...cmon...it's not that leet. It's why I got into these games, it's like a mental vacation.
    Last edited by Violacea; 10-13-2011 at 12:32 PM.

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara Kaelani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaedyan View Post
    What if new players actually PvP'd, instead of asking for better gear?
    Well, they'd spend the first week dying to everything and everyone.
    They'd be insulted by their teammates for being a drag on the team.
    They'd be one or two shot by every opponent they meet.
    They'd get camped in the spawn, as a source of free favor and prestige for the other team.

    As they finally pick up enough favor to get some Valor gear, they'd still get pwned by more than half of the other team.
    They'd learn the best places to hide and PvE inside the warfront maps.
    They'd AFK because endless respawn timers isn't a fun way to spend your gametime.
    They'd get reported by teammates that want R8s in there, not "freekin R2 nubs".

    After months and months of grinding, they'd still die to R8s, but they'd find they can kill R1s.
    They start logging onto the forums, to shout down the idea of ranked competition.
    Because, obviously, they need to be able to kill somebody else to progress.

    After they finally achieve the R8 pinnacle, they get bored with Warfronts, because there's no challenge and no reward.
    So, they'd log onto the forums to shout down all those R1s who want a fair fight with "We didn't get one... why should you."
    Finally, they'd quit the game because warfronts are too easy and boring.

    So... that's how it would go if new players actually PvPed.
    Pretty bleak outlook for warfronts.
    Last edited by Kaelani; 10-13-2011 at 12:33 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satiar View Post
    It's unthinkable.

    All of us current R8s started at R8, naturally. None of us started at rank 0, and learned how to play by going up against better opponents. None of us also experienced the sweet joy of attaining equal gear to our nemesis, and striking them down with our now superior skill.
    The difference is that when you were rank 1, there weren't the number of R8s around that there are now. Try to have a little perspective. When the average rank is something like 4-5 in a WF, it's a WHOLE lot different than an average rank of 2.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelani View Post
    Well, they'd spend the first week dying to everything and everyone.
    They'd be insulted by their teammates for being a drag on the team.
    They'd be one or two shot by every opponent they meet.
    They'd get camped in the spawn, as a source of free favor and prestige for the other team.

    As they finally pick up enough favor to get some Valor gear, they'd still get pwned by more than half of the other team.
    They'd learn the best places to hide and PvE inside the warfront maps.
    They'd AFK because endless respawn timers isn't a fun way to spend your gametime.
    They'd get reported by teammates that want R8s in there, not "freekin R2 nubs".

    After months and months of grinding, they'd still die to R8s, but they'd find they can kill R1s.
    They start logging onto the forums, to shout down the idea of ranked competition.
    Because, obviously, they need to be able to kill somebody else to progress.

    After they finally achieve the R8 pinnacle, they get bored with Warfronts, because there's no challenge and no reward.
    So, they'd log onto the forums to shout down all those R1s who want a fair fight with "We didn't get one... why should you."
    Finally, they'd quit the game because warfronts are too easy and boring.

    So... that's how it would go if new players actually PvPed.
    Pretty bleak outlook for warfronts.
    This pretty much sums up my experience, except I stopped at rank 4.

  14. #14
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    Real PvP'rs don't want massive gear differences between them and their opponents. They want fights to come down to who has more skill. Rift doesn't have real PvP. Rift has a bunch of PvE'rs that call themselves PvP'rs because they spend their time farming PvP gear instead of PvE gear.

    I have an R5 and an R7. The difference between R6 and R4 is laughable and the difference between R6 and R8 is even worse.

    I'd rather have them take all my gear away and put me on a level playing field with R1's then have the advantage you get from gear. Unfortunately that will never happen so I am forced to grind to r8 to be able to complete against everyone. I am just buying time until something comes out that is actually for PvP'rs or I decided to go back to my Eve accounts again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zetans View Post
    Would they just give up as pvp fun is not being 1-2 shotted by better geared players. Or spending 5mins dpsing someone constantly and not seeing their health bar move at all?
    Hard to argue with players giving up, since we all see it happen in almost every Warfront. I suppose the follow up question would be, should we design the game around the players who give up, or the ones who continue to play?

    Quote Originally Posted by zetans View Post
    And will pvp die out as no new players can be bothered to go through a catch up phases based solely on time rather than skill?
    I'm pretty sure the players who quit aren't exhibiting skill...

    Quote Originally Posted by zetans View Post
    Does rift pvp meet the following expression? Gear = timeplayed > skill
    No. It meets this expression: warfront class composition > experience of warfront players > specs of warfront players > skill > gear.

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