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Thread: Taugrim on Sanctum today.

  1. #16
    Banned Shadowprison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaros View Post
    I'm confused as to which part is OP: the siphon, or the Debuff. If they nerf the Siphon It'd make sense, if they nerf the debuff something would have to happen to clerics and warriors, too.
    The siphon hitting multiple targets is OP.

    The passive heal debuff is a bad mechanic to balance around. Think of it that way.

  2. #17
    Plane Walker Mlaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penumbralcat View Post
    That's like saying rogue damage was fine pre-buff since you could have 3 rogues jump somebody at once. It is a team game, afterall...
    I found Marksman damage pretty much fine pre-patch little tweaking on its basic abilities to make it competitive when all CD's were blown but other than that working alongside team mates you were brutal.
    It was always the melee rogues that were suffering you could 3 of them jump stealth on a cleric and still have trouble taking him/her out half the time.. so they worked as a team but couldnt take out 1 person yup they required the increase.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowprison View Post
    The passive heal debuff is a bad mechanic to balance around. Think of it that way.
    It is. I wouldn't be surprised to see more souls/classes get it though. Seems that's how Trion has decided to separate pve/pvp heals.

    Leaves adjusting the siphon.
    Last edited by Senji; 10-05-2011 at 05:34 AM.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    I'll be honest still seemed like moaning to me...

    I mean he has looked at the abilities from a single person perspective.. Its like saying a cleric cannont cleanse the debuffs fast enough and hes correct 1 cleric couldnt.. But since this is a team game and most warfronts have minimum of 3 clerics for the majority of matches thats a whole lot of cleansing that could be going on and because workload is shared a whole lot of healing to..

    Sure its harder to co-ordinate in a pug but its made 10x harder when people dont try...

    I mean look at the group set up at start of match are half your clerics running dps specs then complaining about fanout vm spam.. thiers your problem!! its easily countered if you adapt to the situation as they arise.
    Haha, and there is a maximum of one marksman per three clerics, right?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    you saying they cant cleanse between heals? or are you saying they shouldnt adapt to new circumstances? or perhaps your saying they shouldnt play as part of a team?

    wether your pugging or not this is still a Team game 1 cleanses others heal, rotate 1 cleanse others heal, rotate your problem seems to be you can't co-ordinate.. If people can do it in other games why do you think they will fail to do it in rift?

    And I dont expect anyone let alone clerics to do anything they dont want to, but if people cant adapt and change their playstyle to suit new circumstances then they have no grounds to complain.

    What was really stupid is within 8 hours of patch release the amount of whining on forums hit fever pitch and pretty much encouraged every fotm to pick up his rogue creating the insane amount of AOE we are currently seeing... Now when Trion hit Rogues with the inevitable nerf thats comming these Fotm rogues will vanish leaving a broken class behind and you'll be thier thinking ahh all better back to 3 classes in a warfront again..

    Until the warfronts calm down and not swamped with 10 rogues a side you cant see how effective the new abilities play out.. all you have are exaggerated circumstances at present which you and so many others are to blind to see.
    People are blind? It's been said consistently that no one is denying that rogues needed a dmg buff nor do we have a lot of threads going "NERF ROGUE DMG". All the threads are complaining towards a 50% healing debuff being more widespread then it is now and that is just from bad balancing.

    Taugrim has been saying for a while that having pvp balanced around a 50% healing debuff was a bad idea and caused all the problems in rift pvp from day 1. A better thing to do was to follow what WoW did and nerfed those things to be single target, require a GCD, and only at 25% where its helpful but not needed. Dmg and healing can be balanced better from there without over inflating numbers. Problem was a lot of people didn't see what he was trying to say and cried about how "oh you just wanted everyone to be nerfed except the class you play" or w/e.

    Back to the cleric thing, some of them wants to go dps and not have to heal all the time in warfronts and whats wrong with that. You have any idea how much of a headache it is to play a healer and keeping up the people around you as well as yourself and then being called "a baddie" for not being able to do it? This game should not be balanced around "oh hey cleanse this and we will win" or "purge this or we will lose". That is something WoW learned after 4+ years.

  6. #21
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    Siphon should go back to the original 20% value.

    Other than that? I guess this is the part where I put together a video montage of the tooltips for all the different purges in the game and set it to Benny Hill music. I'm lazy though, so just imagine that I did, and that you're watching it.
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  7. #22
    Plane Walker Mlaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctisx View Post
    People are blind? It's been said consistently that no one is denying that rogues needed a dmg buff nor do we have a lot of threads going "NERF ROGUE DMG". All the threads are complaining towards a 50% healing debuff being more widespread then it is now and that is just from bad balancing.

    Taugrim has been saying for a while that having pvp balanced around a 50% healing debuff was a bad idea and caused all the problems in rift pvp from day 1. A better thing to do was to follow what WoW did and nerfed those things to be single target, require a GCD, and only at 25% where its helpful but not needed. Dmg and healing can be balanced better from there without over inflating numbers. Problem was a lot of people didn't see what he was trying to say and cried about how "oh you just wanted everyone to be nerfed except the class you play" or w/e.

    Back to the cleric thing, some of them wants to go dps and not have to heal all the time in warfronts and whats wrong with that. You have any idea how much of a headache it is to play a healer and keeping up the people around you as well as yourself and then being called "a baddie" for not being able to do it? This game should not be balanced around "oh hey cleanse this and we will win" or "purge this or we will lose". That is something WoW learned after 4+ years.
    If the healing debuff had been uncleansable Id be agreeing with you.. From what I can tell having VM spread by Fanout is a bug that will soom be fixed so we will have a single target cleansable debuff that is not unwarrented in rift where Healing is in over abundance..

    My problem is with the current rage going on when faced by exaggerated numbers... what happens when all those leave? what happens when trion nerf the class and only the dedicated rogues remain you will have 2 or 3 rogues per warfront with a class thats nerfed down to worse than it was pre-patch.. do you think they will go softly softly on nerfs.. everyone knows thier approach that way.... so you'll have a class who has a lower burst ratio than before sudden stripped of the debuffs that can allow him to maintain the pressure on opponents.

    Now I dont remember WoW pvp it was so many years since i played it and it evolved long after I left but how many players did you have in its small arena matches did it compete with upto 20 a side teams? did it have mutiple classes with ability to spec into group heals? thier is an overwhelming amount of heals including trinkets tossing out heals in this game its silly Mages Clerics Bards in every fight yet your trying to compare it to WoWs small scale arena fights (correct me if im wrong since all I have seen is 5man teams in the vids). In a 5 man v 5 man then 50% would have been to heavy but thats not the case here.

    As for clerics if they want to dps then they dps its that simple but they have to realize by doing so they sacrifice the utility that is so benifical in matches these days, not come on forums and complain... since they already have the ability to combat the debuffs in the first place.

    As for Taugrim as reasonable a person as he seems, he was one of the worst offenders he admits to finding out that the abilities havnt been tested as well as they should have been on PTS but withing 8 hours he was complaining on forums, rather than see how it pans out when the hype dies down and fotm players move on, He was shell shocked from new changes and reacted accordingly.. If he really has the best intrest of balance in mind he should be spending the time now to test out the new abilities talk to the opposing side and organise a few 10 - 20 man encounters with balanced teams and see how it plays out... Not race to the forums and create a thread that creates mass hysteria
    Sureen - Conspiracy

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    but since the majority of what I read is full of crap I guess most talk out of thier Arse

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    If the healing debuff had been uncleansable Id be agreeing with you.. From what I can tell having VM spread by Fanout is a bug that will soom be fixed so we will have a single target cleansable debuff that is not unwarrented in rift where Healing is in over abundance..

    My problem is with the current rage going on when faced by exaggerated numbers... what happens when all those leave? what happens when trion nerf the class and only the dedicated rogues remain you will have 2 or 3 rogues per warfront with a class thats nerfed down to worse than it was pre-patch.. do you think they will go softly softly on nerfs.. everyone knows thier approach that way.... so you'll have a class who has a lower burst ratio than before sudden stripped of the debuffs that can allow him to maintain the pressure on opponents.

    Now I dont remember WoW pvp it was so many years since i played it and it evolved long after I left but how many players did you have in its small arena matches did it compete with upto 20 a side teams? did it have mutiple classes with ability to spec into group heals? thier is an overwhelming amount of heals including trinkets tossing out heals in this game its silly Mages Clerics Bards in every fight yet your trying to compare it to WoWs small scale arena fights (correct me if im wrong since all I have seen is 5man teams in the vids). In a 5 man v 5 man then 50% would have been to heavy but thats not the case here.

    As for clerics if they want to dps then they dps its that simple but they have to realize by doing so they sacrifice the utility that is so benifical in matches these days, not come on forums and complain... since they already have the ability to combat the debuffs in the first place.

    As for Taugrim as reasonable a person as he seems, he was one of the worst offenders he admits to finding out that the abilities havnt been tested as well as they should have been on PTS but withing 8 hours he was complaining on forums, rather than see how it pans out when the hype dies down and fotm players move on, He was shell shocked from new changes and reacted accordingly.. If he really has the best intrest of balance in mind he should be spending the time now to test out the new abilities talk to the opposing side and organise a few 10 - 20 man encounters with balanced teams and see how it plays out... Not race to the forums and create a thread that creates mass hysteria
    So clueless.....I don't even know where to begin nor do I want to try.

  9. #24
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    His whole rant can be solved by purging. Not really hard.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vindicit View Post
    His whole rant can be solved by purging. Not really hard.
    And that's the problem with 50%+ rogues in WF's since 1.5 and less healers, it doesn't work.

    Majority of pvp wf's are pugs with the majority in those pugs being rogues now, yeh that's balance for you. You didn't see that many pyros when they were god like.

    Sorry, but I agree rogues needed a buff, but an ability like this is obscene, there has already been screenshots of rogues healing during wf's it's very lol.

    The only reason why some rogues are moaning it's not op (yes some as the decent ones admit it's needs to be fixed) is because they didn't know how to play their class before, so sucked more than the average rogue, now they have an 'I win' button they are worried if it's taken away they will suck once again.

    Sorry, but like I said before, pyros were obscene but only when they had a pocket healer (you all moaned then) rogues don't need a pocket healer, they just rely on the opposition to heal them which is ridiculous.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    you saying they cant cleanse between heals? or are you saying they shouldnt adapt to new circumstances? or perhaps your saying they shouldnt play as part of a team?

    wether your pugging or not this is still a Team game 1 cleanses others heal, rotate 1 cleanse others heal, rotate your problem seems to be you can't co-ordinate.. If people can do it in other games why do you think they will fail to do it in rift?

    And I dont expect anyone let alone clerics to do anything they dont want to, but if people cant adapt and change their playstyle to suit new circumstances then they have no grounds to complain.

    What was really stupid is within 8 hours of patch release the amount of whining on forums hit fever pitch and pretty much encouraged every fotm to pick up his rogue creating the insane amount of AOE we are currently seeing... Now when Trion hit Rogues with the inevitable nerf thats comming these Fotm rogues will vanish leaving a broken class behind and you'll be thier thinking ahh all better back to 3 classes in a warfront again..

    Until the warfronts calm down and not swamped with 10 rogues a side you cant see how effective the new abilities play out.. all you have are exaggerated circumstances at present which you and so many others are to blind to see.
    So 3 Clerics, specced correctly, co-ordinating in pugs, using abilities that neither damage nor heal are the counter to a single rogue with fan out plinking away from 35 yards.

    Oh /facepalm.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vindicit View Post
    His whole rant can be solved by purging. Not really hard.
    Move aoe cleanse to 16 points and put it in the sent, ward and puri trees. Make it passive and based off of healing. There's your balance.

  13. #28
    Plane Walker Mlaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IconoSton View Post
    So 3 Clerics, specced correctly, co-ordinating in pugs, using abilities that neither damage nor heal are the counter to a single rogue with fan out plinking away from 35 yards.

    Oh /facepalm.
    And all the while your teams rogue is at 35 yards plinking away with the same skills but lets say thier team isnt specced to counter.... which team wins.... ahhh teamwork..

    Face it even when VM is corrected to single target only you will still whine, you will still want to be the solo hero... 35 yards can be covered in a few seconds its nothing in warfronts which are so small to begin with.. where thier are so many obstacles to los the rogue.
    Ive sat and eradicated rogues switching from one to the next whilst my team proceeded to kill them.. Fan out rogues rarely spot their buffs go down all they see is thier target..
    So many classes can get these options purging cleansing everyone can LOS them but hey its easier to moan... not even a week old and you and many others keep crying nerf
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    but since the majority of what I read is full of crap I guess most talk out of thier Arse

  14. #29
    Rift Disciple Leoknife's Avatar
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    Simple fix.. Don't allow AoE MM skills to proc VM. I'm a P7 MM rogue and I approve of this message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leoknife View Post
    Simple fix.. Don't allow AoE MM skills to proc VM. I'm a P7 MM rogue and I approve of this message.
    Taken at face value, I'd agree with this suggestion. If VM/FB was single-target instead of multi-target, the healing component would be much more reasonable and the argument about cleansing/purging would be valid. Although if it's single target only, the proc rate would probably need to be increased to compensate (perhaps making it 100%). And if that was done, they'd need to put it on an internal CD so that it can't be simply tab targeted to multiple opponents and so that choosing to use cleanse/purge against it would be an effective use of a GCD.
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