The truth about Vampiric Munitions and Fell Blades

[Leganie]

While I don't want to get into a class comparison as the two classes are nothing alike, at a very basic disagreement going from your line of thinking-they would then either need to make LW dispellable or make the rogue heal debuff undispellable and then give the melee rogue the same survivability as a warrior.

I would rather see both removed and make keeping a healer on lockdown something that can be done. vamp, fell and LW are stupid. CC needs to be made usable in pvp not just zomg fear from some warrior or whoever else has a ae fear. and yes i have a warrior and yes LW should just be removed forget a nerf no one should have that. all you need is dps and heals in pvp there is no "support" roles that can greatly impact pvp ie bards and doms? no one should be able to take on 5v1 and live either w/o massive CC and alot of CD's

[Violacea]

Problem is that it's a passive and not a cooldown based ability.
1. It requires no skill, timing, or effort. at all
2. Can't be countered, just goes back up
3. On the most OP damage dealing soul in the game now
4. Free for 16 points
5. Turns the top damage dealing top range OP soul into a rambo skillless juggernaut

I'll comment on these

1. I agree, it's just spray and pray

2. It's chances to be countered are low due to it going back up. But if someone wanted to they could do a good self cleanse and then blow a huge heal if they are playing highly aware.

3. It's the most healing that soul really has for self efficiency. Not saying in the right situation (group doesn't uncluster, multiple heal clerics, mindless heal spam) it isn't a tad overpowered. But at the same time rogues have no real highly self sufficient healing (unless bard virtuoso is up). I admit our healing capability is now much better than a warrior. But the counter to that would be the warriors is full (ignore new siphons effecting them, not sure where thats going) is on long GCD, though highly effective, coupled with their survivability *without* heals far surpassing any calling when spec'd right. I still think 10m cool down for that ability is bonkers but I guess thats justified by it being a 6 point ability. I'm not a warrior so I don't know if they'd enjoy the change...but seems like maybe they could move the full heal up the pally soul and drastically reduce its cooldown? This can be very self sufficient but it depends on someone else's lack of awareness. When it's good its great, when someone sees what's going I have found people to counter it easily. Also, seems like nobody but heal clerics pump enough heals to make it worthy. Just didn't seem to do me much if it was rogues/warriors/chloros.

4. That's like saying I can go to McDonalds and get a free burger for 89c

5. I was already decently capable of topping damage on my rogue before 1.5, I'll agree the MM is one of the most brutal range souls now (Isn't that the definition of a Marksmen o.O) but you can only rambo it up if the group is full of heal clerics. I have attacked groups and gone down in no time flat. I did though attack one group in Whitefall who did not uncluster and they must have had atleast 3 healing clerics sitting on our stone I was aoe'ing just spamming their hearts out, which was stupid because it was only me against 8 people or so. If the multiple clerics had put a break on their heals for like 3 seconds, I'd have been dead. But they just stood clustered on the flag, spam healing their heart out. It was pretty funny, but realistically finding a group that goofy to allow that was rare. That put it in my head that I could be a rambo, then when I tried to be a rambo I got smoked pretty quick and realized that was just a nifty situation where everything was perfect and the Vampiric Munitions stars were aligned.

[Leganie]

meh............

[Valanceer]

What does that part have to do with the debuff being undispellable?

A warrior doesnt need to have good survivability to get off lingering wounds.

Actually they do, because unlike op rogues they don't have 35 meter ranged instants and double the damage, nor does it make them a facerolling skilless immortal juggernaut for free.

[Original_Hellfire]

Indo is not the type to QQ from my experience. He is also one of the more informed and experienced rogues I have come across. You might take a closer look at what he said before you continue with that line of thinking. Hell you may even learn something about critical thought.

Just sick of people pretending they are rogues saying we are op.

[Nightwish]

"A Rogue... killed me... this cannot be... put it back to the way it was...."

That's all I see.

- Vybz

[Vindicit]

Been saying this for days....


Purge!

[CarnageBC]

No problem.

You remove reparation, blade of elemental affinity, mortality etc from the game and I'll gladly accept the removal of the heals from FB and VM.

And NO...NB has PLENTY of heals and sheilds, no way they need to have FB AoE..are you for real?

[Original_Hellfire]

No problem.

You remove reparation, blade of elemental affinity, mortality etc from the game and I'll gladly accept the removal of the heals from FB and VM.

And NO...NB has PLENTY of heals and sheilds, no way they need to have FB AoE..are you for real?

NB's have aoe attacks fell could proc off of

[Nightwish]

are you for real?

So... if LW is able to AoE proc on every crit why can't FB/VM? Basically, from what I'm seeing, the all Rogue teams are finally starting to have a chance at winning now.

We all remember the days when we saw a team of full Rogues and told our selves "this is going to be a loss" or "instant win here!"

No one ever said that about Mages, Clerics, or Warriors. So now that all classes stand a chance, we need to nerf the one class that's been a free kill back to being a free kill?

How about you get to Rank 8, stop stacking heals, and get some dps?

- Vybz

[Liang Nuren]

1. I agree, it's just spray and pray

Yes, it's brainless to apply.

2. It's chances to be countered are low due to it going back up. But if someone wanted to they could do a good self cleanse and then blow a huge heal if they are playing highly aware.

Two things:
- You can't actually cleanse VM from a target (I tried last night and screenshotted it). I haven't tried Sterilize because it's 26 points into a PVP-useless tree and on a massive CD anyway.
- The probabilities of it going back up are fairly high. Consider the below.

You can calculate the probability of getting a proc with:
1-(1-proc_chance)^(num_players_attacked).

So if you have a 10 person rumble at codex and there's 3 rogues spamming fan out with VM+FB hitting an average of 5 people each:
>>> 1.0 - (1-(1-(1-.2)**5))**2
0.8926258175999999

Each player has a probabilistic chance of being hit:
>>> 1-(1-.5)**3
0.875

The chance that any particular person will be affected by a heal debuff from any particular Rogue:
>>> (1.0 - (1-(1-(1-.2)**5))**2)/5.0
0.17852516351999997

The chance that any person will have a heal debuff reapplied any given rogue GCD:
>>> 1-(1-((1.0 - (1-(1-(1-.2)**5))**2)/5.0))**3
0.44565160579366325

The chance that any particular person will be heal debuffed at the end of 10 seconds:
>>> 1-(1-(1-(1-((1.0 - (1-(1-(1-.2)**5))**2)/5.0))**3))**10
0.997259511787814

-Liang

[CarnageBC]

So... if LW is able to AoE proc on every crit why can't FB/VM? Basically, from what I'm seeing, the all Rogue teams are finally starting to have a chance at winning now.

We all remember the days when we saw a team of full Rogues and told our selves "this is going to be a loss" or "instant win here!"

No one ever said that about Mages, Clerics, or Warriors. So now that all classes stand a chance, we need to nerf the one class that's been a free kill back to being a free kill?

How about you get to Rank 8, stop stacking heals, and get some dps?

- Vybz

I was quoting him because they WILL hotfix it so it's single target again, he's asking for it to remain AoE spreadable through melee in NB. I'll be shocked if they let it remain AoE, that's a touch OP, unless you have a smart healer.

[Nightwish]

Yes, it's brainless to apply.



Two things:
- You can't actually cleanse VM from a target (I tried last night and screenshotted it). I haven't tried Sterilize because it's 26 points into a PVP-useless tree and on a massive CD anyway.
- The probabilities of it going back up are fairly high. Consider the below.

You can calculate the probability of getting a proc with:
1-(1-proc_chance)^(num_players_attacked).

So if you have a 10 person rumble at codex and there's 3 rogues spamming fan out with VM+FB hitting an average of 5 people each:
>>> 1.0 - (1-(1-(1-.2)**5))**2
0.8926258175999999

Each player has a probabilistic chance of being hit:
>>> 1-(1-.5)**3
0.875

The chance that any particular person will be affected by a heal debuff from any particular Rogue:
>>> (1.0 - (1-(1-(1-.2)**5))**2)/5.0
0.17852516351999997

The chance that any person will have a heal debuff reapplied any given rogue GCD:
>>> 1-(1-((1.0 - (1-(1-(1-.2)**5))**2)/5.0))**3
0.44565160579366325

The chance that any particular person will be heal debuffed at the end of 10 seconds:
>>> 1-(1-(1-(1-((1.0 - (1-(1-(1-.2)**5))**2)/5.0))**3))**10
0.997259511787814

-Liang

You do realize you have to tab target to apply the healing debuffs on all those targets, right?

Spamming AoE attacks does NOT apply healing debuff to all damaged targets like LW.

1. Stop stacking healers.

2. Get some real dps.

3. Adapt and move on, isn't that was Rogues were told?

4. Not fun when the shoe is on your foot, huh?

5. hahahahahaha.

- Vybz

[Liang Nuren]

You do realize you have to tab target to apply the healing debuffs on all those targets, right?

This doesn't appear to be true.

Spamming AoE attacks does NOT apply healing debuff to all damaged targets like LW.

This doesn't appear to be true.

1. Stop stacking healers.

The Cleric community seems to be pretty quiet right now but there's a fair amount of discussion on simply abandoning all heal specs for PVP.

2. Get some real dps.

Clerics are pretty garbage DPS because we have good heals. LOLOLOLOLOLOL... oh man hahahahaohwow.jpg

3. Adapt and move on, isn't that was Rogues were told?

Sure, we're adapting. I hope you enjoy WFs without any heals at all. AS AN ADDED BONUS, when nobody heals Vampiric Munitions don't matter.

4. Not fun when the shoe is on your foot, huh?

I don't give a ****. I've got a L50 Rogue too.

5. hahahahahaha.

That's my line, TYVM. I really appreviate Pyhhric victories and the Rogue boost reminds me rather strongly of one.

-Liang

[CarnageBC]

I was in several WF's yesterday and we still needed 2 of us to kill the good clerics, just does not take 6 of us anymore.

And I am talking R8's, anything less than that you are simply not geared enough.

R8 Clerics still lol their way through till they run into GOOD R8 players who can take them down now.

Stop hatin.