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Thread: Trion Dropped the Ball With RIFT Patch 1.5 PVP

  1. #766
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    They should've hired the PVP team like I told, it doesnt take more than a few guy and max couple month who fix this ****. But PVP is just a feature take it or leave it. DPS some dumb boss is fun isnt it.
    Last edited by June; 10-01-2011 at 10:50 PM.

  2. #767
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taugrim View Post
    Let's consider the scaling.

    It sounds like you and Zyzyx are assuming everyone is heal-debuffed, so we'll use that assumption for a moment.

    8 debuffed VM targets
    AOE heal for 500 on each of the 8 debuffed VM targets
    4000 raw healing -> 2000 debuffed healing received -> 1000 raw siphoned -> 500 net siphoned

    Therefore, in situations where you are debuffed and can debuff 8 targets, every time an AOE heal is cast, your enemy healer is healing you for the same amount that each of the healer's allies is receiving.

    Now let's revisit the assumption that everyone is heal debuffed.

    Why?

    You should spend less time relative to other classes/specs being heal debuffed, given that you have the advantage of 35m range and good mobility mechanics. You have better capability to gap those pesky Warriors and MDPS Rogues and avoid getting LW'd/FB'd in the first place, whereas your poor melee allies are probably heal debuffed.

    Therefore, in situations where you are not debuffed and can debuff 8 targets, every time an AOE heal is cast, your enemy healer is healing you for the twice the amount that each of the healer's allies is receiving.
    No one is forcing you to heal. You are making that decision yourself. With a little awareness you can ensure that you never heal a single rogue easily.

    Yes some rogue specs are highly mobile. That is an advantage. The other callings have advantages of their own. I could list them for you if you'd like. Also please keep in mind only 2 rogue souls have these types of abilities not all rogues will have them.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 10-01-2011 at 11:01 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  3. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by taugrim View Post
    Let's consider the scaling.

    It sounds like you and Zyzyx are assuming everyone is heal-debuffed, so we'll use that assumption for a moment.

    8 debuffed VM targets
    AOE heal for 500 on each of the 8 debuffed VM targets
    4000 raw healing -> 2000 debuffed healing received -> 1000 raw siphoned -> 500 net siphoned

    Therefore, in situations where you are debuffed and can debuff 8 targets, every time an AOE heal is cast, your enemy healer is healing you for the same amount that each of the healer's allies is receiving.

    Now let's revisit the assumption that everyone is heal debuffed.

    Why?

    You should spend less time relative to other classes/specs being heal debuffed, given that you have the advantage of 35m range and good mobility mechanics. You have better capability to gap those pesky Warriors and MDPS Rogues and avoid getting LW'd/FB'd in the first place, whereas your poor melee allies are probably heal debuffed.

    Therefore, in situations where you are not debuffed and can debuff 8 targets, every time an AOE heal is cast, your enemy healer is healing you for the twice the amount that each of the healer's allies is receiving.
    So why can lingering wounds be applied via AoE critting and not be dispelled again?

    Until you can rationalize that, you shouldn't be complaining about Rogues now that we actually have some survivability (something you've always had) for group v group combat.

    Another thing here: If your entire group of 8 is dpsing one MM, why isn't he dying? I mean it's not as if he can just syphon enough life just from spamming fan out. If you believe that, then I have a bridge you can buy. Most of your complaints seems to be coming from 1v1 combat but you're just throwing in group v group for some reason. You make it seem as if in the time it takes the ONE Rogue to healing debuff you're entire 8 man group, you can't burst him down. How bad is your dps really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    No, I'm calling nerf because the ENEMY team is being healed for huge amounts and I become virtually unkillable as a result of it. The only time people had a chance to kill me was after a rez wave when I hadn't had time to load them up with VM again, or when I wasn't able to find a cluster of enemies to load up.
    I'm going to call BS here Mr. Warrior who has a Rogue alt. How long were they ignoring you so that you could healing debuff them all? If they're focusing firing you, you should die, because in no situation are you doing enough AoE damage for a healing syphon to heal you through focus fire, especially as an MM. If you're saying you're kiting, then isn't the point of being an MM? To run away and do some damage? Don't make it seem as if you're standing in the middle of their entire group, taking all their damage, and being healed to full from a healing syphon.

    - Vybz
    Last edited by Nightwish; 10-01-2011 at 11:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  4. #769
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    No one is forcing you to heal. You are making that decision yourself. With a little awareness you can ensure that you never heal a single rogue easily.
    This would be a brilliant solution if the MM were the only DPS on the other side.
    Taugrim
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    Twitter: @taugrim | Blog: taugrim.com
    Guides: M*A*S*H Melee Healer Cleric PVP | Riftblade Warrior PVP | Strafing / Keybindings

  5. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by taugrim View Post
    This would be a brilliant solution if the MM were the only DPS on the other side.
    So, again, you're saying one MM can survive focus firing from just spamming AoE attacks on a group of enemies that can focus fire and burst him down?

    This would make sense if there were only one dps on the other side and you have a bunch of healers just over healing.

    - Vybz
    Last edited by Nightwish; 10-01-2011 at 11:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  6. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    No one is forcing you to heal. You are making that decision yourself. With a little awareness you can ensure that you never heal a single rogue easily.
    The sad thing is that this is not even close to a required strategy against the rogue. I see rogues die over and over and over through my team's, and my own, AoE spam heal. If it isn't happening your team's DPS has the downs. That is it. People need to stop making up these mythical examples and blaming Trion for bads.

    I mean, taugrim's fake and mythical scenarios sound cool and all, but they aren't realistic in any way. Not to mention contradictory.
    Last edited by Sorreah; 10-01-2011 at 11:14 PM.
    Etna - Rogue 5/5 GSB 4/4 RoS 4/4 GP 4/4 DH 10/11 HK PvP 8/8

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    Thus far I've only played one night with the changes but the rogues seem ok to me. This looks a lot more like people complaining that they can finally keep up with the rest of us.

  8. #773
    Champion of Telara Morituri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    You make it seem as if in the time it takes the ONE Rogue to healing debuff you're entire 8 man group, you can't burst him down. How bad is your dps really?
    - Vybz
    I promised myself I wasn't coming back to this thread to give it a stupid bump but this bears repeating. MM can still be focused down or even taken out by one good dpser. If the rogue is spending his time aoeing godheals as they say, then he's isn't utilizing his mobility to stay alive. And don't give me this 35 meter business b/c we all know that battlefields are static events & no MM can maintain 35 meter range from all people at all times.

    OK, I'm leaving the thread again.
    Last edited by Morituri; 10-01-2011 at 11:16 PM.

  9. #774
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    Not gunna lie I'm pvp'in right now and the guardians seem to be able to kill me just fine. Maybe you should ask the hardcore elite pvp'ers of random warfront 232634626 what special tactics they are using to break through the god like healing I am receiving from VM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  10. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    Not gunna lie I'm pvp'in right now and the guardians seem to be able to kill me just fine. Maybe you should ask the hardcore elite pvp'ers of random warfront 232634626 what special tactics they are using to break through the god like healing I am receiving from VM.
    Hey, remember when Rogues were told to FF and use a healing debuff to be able to kill a healer? Good times... now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's quite funny that the healers are complaining they can't dps down a Rogue anymore.

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  11. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorreah View Post
    The sad thing is that this is not even close to a required strategy against the rogue. I see rogues die over and over and over through my team's, and my own, AoE spam heal. If it isn't happening your team's DPS has the downs. That is it. People need to stop making up these mythical examples and blaming Trion for bads.

    I mean, taugrim's fake and mythical scenarios sound cool and all, but they aren't realistic in any way. Not to mention contradictory.
    They're entirely realistic. In BG earlier tonight, I debuffed a crowd with VM and was getting strings of heals for 200-400 health/heal, 8 heals at a time, every other second. The numbers aren't always that big, but it's certainly possible. And it's not exactly uncommon.

    Stop and think about that for a second. Easily 1500-2000 health recovered every couple of seconds in a lot of cases. I wasn't kidding when I mentioned earlier that I survived an assassin opening with Paralyzing Strike when I had Break Free on CD and right after the stun was applied two RB plowed into me. I was at about 40% health when the stun wore off, hit Shadow Shift to create a gap, and I was at full health again a few seconds later. No outside heals, only VM procs. I had a BG match tonight where our team had absolutely no healers and it wasn't until I got focused after a rez wave at the very end of the match that I experienced my first death.

    VM + AoE = bad mojo.

  12. #777
    Ascendant Nightwish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    They're entirely realistic. In BG earlier tonight, I debuffed a crowd with VM and was getting strings of heals for 200-400 health/heal, 8 heals at a time, every other second. The numbers aren't always that big, but it's certainly possible. And it's not exactly uncommon.

    Stop and think about that for a second. Easily 1500-2000 health recovered every couple of seconds in a lot of cases. I wasn't kidding when I mentioned earlier that I survived an assassin opening with Paralyzing Strike when I had Break Free on CD and right after the stun was applied two RB plowed into me. I was at about 40% health when the stun wore off, hit Shadow Shift to create a gap, and I was at full health again a few seconds later. No outside heals, only VM procs. I had a BG match tonight where our team had absolutely no healers and it wasn't until I got focused after a rez wave at the very end of the match that I experienced my first death.

    VM + AoE = bad mojo.
    This is a joke right? Even with the healing debuff on the entire team you won't be surviving 3 or more dps if they put a healing debuff on you. Go figure.

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  13. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    They're entirely realistic. In BG earlier tonight, I debuffed a crowd with VM and was getting strings of heals for 200-400 health/heal, 8 heals at a time, every other second. The numbers aren't always that big, but it's certainly possible. And it's not exactly uncommon.

    Stop and think about that for a second. Easily 1500-2000 health recovered every couple of seconds in a lot of cases. I wasn't kidding when I mentioned earlier that I survived an assassin opening with Paralyzing Strike when I had Break Free on CD and right after the stun was applied two RB plowed into me. I was at about 40% health when the stun wore off, hit Shadow Shift to create a gap, and I was at full health again a few seconds later. No outside heals, only VM procs. I had a BG match tonight where our team had absolutely no healers and it wasn't until I got focused after a rez wave at the very end of the match that I experienced my first death.

    VM + AoE = bad mojo.

    GJ Trion.

  14. #779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    They're entirely realistic. In BG earlier tonight, I debuffed a crowd with VM and was getting strings of heals for 200-400 health/heal, 8 heals at a time, every other second. The numbers aren't always that big, but it's certainly possible. And it's not exactly uncommon.

    Stop and think about that for a second. Easily 1500-2000 health recovered every couple of seconds in a lot of cases. I wasn't kidding when I mentioned earlier that I survived an assassin opening with Paralyzing Strike when I had Break Free on CD and right after the stun was applied two RB plowed into me. I was at about 40% health when the stun wore off, hit Shadow Shift to create a gap, and I was at full health again a few seconds later. No outside heals, only VM procs. I had a BG match tonight where our team had absolutely no healers and it wasn't until I got focused after a rez wave at the very end of the match that I experienced my first death.

    VM + AoE = bad mojo.
    lol your lying through your teeth

  15. #780
    Rift Chaser Sorreah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    They're entirely realistic. In BG earlier tonight, I debuffed a crowd with VM and was getting strings of heals for 200-400 health/heal, 8 heals at a time, every other second. The numbers aren't always that big, but it's certainly possible. And it's not exactly uncommon.

    Stop and think about that for a second. Easily 1500-2000 health recovered every couple of seconds in a lot of cases. I wasn't kidding when I mentioned earlier that I survived an assassin opening with Paralyzing Strike when I had Break Free on CD and right after the stun was applied two RB plowed into me. I was at about 40% health when the stun wore off, hit Shadow Shift to create a gap, and I was at full health again a few seconds later. No outside heals, only VM procs. I had a BG match tonight where our team had absolutely no healers and it wasn't until I got focused after a rez wave at the very end of the match that I experienced my first death.

    VM + AoE = bad mojo.
    Stop and read for a second. I was the one who said every player in a WF is pretty much under the effects of a heal debuff just as they were during the parachamp craze, and generally most times after that. He was the one who said we SHOULD NOT assume everyone has a heal debuff after saying ONE MM could debuff EIGHT people. Which means all WFs except for Scion only require two MM to debuff the entire team. Thus my argument.

    You did not survive through two RBs and an assassin unless they were completely inept at their class. It is just plain impossible. I like how you said you ported away from two RIFTBLADES to create distance. You know, the class that has infinite ports? Please don't make up nonsense. There is enough of that on the forums already.

    You also mentioned you died when you were focused at the end. Thank you. It is exactly what I have been saying all along. There is no immortal rogue magically out there.
    Last edited by Sorreah; 10-02-2011 at 01:50 AM.
    Etna - Rogue 5/5 GSB 4/4 RoS 4/4 GP 4/4 DH 10/11 HK PvP 8/8

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