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Thread: Trion Dropped the Ball With RIFT Patch 1.5 PVP

  1. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    OP is fantastic. That's the kind of rigorous posting the game lacks on the whole.
    Spoken like a true warrior...nof having rogues as easy speed bumbs is a ***** isnt it. Having to worry about that rogue on your healers makes it harder to roll hour face on your keyboard.

    With over 1k valor and rank 6 armor I had warrior hit me in 1 sec for over 3500 damage.yeah poor warriors dont have burst...wow....
    Last edited by Redeemer; 10-01-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemer View Post
    Spoken like a true warrior...nof having rogues as easy speed bumbs is a ***** isnt it. Having to worry about that rogue on your healers makes it harder to roll hour face on your keyboard.

    With over 1k valor and rank 6 armor I had warrior hit me in 1 sec for over 3500 damage.yeah poor warriors dont have burst...wow....
    He doesn't actually care about PvP. Which means I have no idea why he's posting in a PvP thread.
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  3. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemer View Post
    The devs admitted that toa killed DAOC... the up turn is what happens when any x pack comes out. Look at the good xpack that daoc had.. everyone loved it didnt break pvp and didnt introduce a mega grind for gear that was super OP and made pvp all about how many artifacts you had.

    3 different devs in 3 diffferent articals all admit that TOA was the starting of the end. And if they could take it back they would now... they admitted that gear grind and power given by gear and not skill was the biggest mistake they made. They knew everyone loved pvp because you hit 50 did some pve for a couple of items but over 3/4 of your gear was player made.. and I know had a LGM of each craft. There were entire programs made so spellcrafters could get the perfect set up crafting wise.. and always people had to make choices.. there was no perfect gear setup.

    So yes I was right and the devs admitted to it pve grind and gear = I win killed daoc thru TOA.
    Only it did not, Numbers don't lie, as for for the whole you were a crafter, yea I had LGM in each craft as well, If you think Armorcrafting took a hit after TOA you're crazy, You always needed player crafted armor to make the right set of gear for you. They went even further by adding stat caps and different player made armor that also increased stat caps, It basically ended up being a perfect balance of coming up with the right setup, Yea I could fit that Winged Helm in my setup, but my Spirit or Body Resist might take a hit.

    Oh Then we had the new resist weapons as well, Which also brought in a whole idea that if you were skimping on your resist for these new items, someone could counter you. I should know, My Valkyrie Ran a Spirit legendary weapon for a reason, people skimped on spirit resist, and I hit them really hard with it.

    The most common complaint about TOA in the end, had zero to do with gear (as new gear in even SI was more powerful then old gear, You think there was a player crafter weapon that came close to the Dragon Shadow Long Sword on my Savage?) and had every thing to do with bugged ML's.

    Even then, a large number of complaints were centered on how long certain ML's took to do, ML3 anyone...

    The content itself wasn't terrible In fact it had a crap ton of content in it's expansion, It just had a ton of annoying bugs concerning that content.

    None of which had anything to do with DAOC's population drop come WoW, They could of not released TOA< and still exp a massive drop in population.
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  4. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    It's not op. Doing 200-400 damage to 8 players max that just gets healed through does nothing for the rogue's team.

    Where was this post when Taugrim was playing warrior and spamming LW with AoE's?
    Where is his post discussing the problems with clerics and their instant heals? (you know the reason rogues need heal debuffs and siphons in the first place)
    We're not talking about the damage. We're talking about the healing generated for a rogue who has VM up on a number of targets. It's unreasonable.

  5. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redeemer View Post
    With over 1k valor and rank 6 armor I had warrior hit me in 1 sec for over 3500 damage.yeah poor warriors dont have burst...wow....

    I am calling BS on this one.

    The most a person can do in 1 GCD is about 1k these days.

    In 2 GCD's taking into account say 3 crits in a row (rare) and 2 ocd abilities then yeah 3k damage, but after that there is no more burst its just sustained. Pop your CD or heal yourself and soldier on. That is what good players do, all the while typing /lol at the warrior.
    Last edited by solarbear; 10-01-2011 at 05:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    We're not talking about the damage. We're talking about the healing generated for a rogue who has VM up on a number of targets. It's unreasonable.
    Is it so hard to comprehend? Whatever the Rogue recieves in healing, the enemies that Rogue debuffed are recieving 4 times as much healing as the Rogue.

    Why is this an issue?

    If the enemy team is being healed for tens of thousands of health every few second then the Rogue has almost got a healer on them.

    You're crying nerf because your team being AoE healed for huge amounts is effectively healing one enemy Rogue for what is still less than one full time healer on that Rogue.

    Or you could just, you know, purge the Rogue. Or kill him?

    I don't really know how to make this any clearer. You guys are crying that VM healing is OP when your team is being healed for FOUR TIMES as much as the Rogue, and that's not even considering debuff uptime, purges, proc chance or cleanse.

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    For the record, I'm all for the AoE portion of these debuffs getting nerfed to single target.

    That said, I fail to see what a MM spamming fanout is doing to your team. If you have any sort of heals going, they're gonna do nada. And if you don't, then they're getting nothing from it anyways.

    It's lolworthy.
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  8. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkieri View Post
    Is it so hard to comprehend? Whatever the Rogue recieves in healing, the enemies that Rogue debuffed are recieving 4 times as much healing as the Rogue.

    Why is this an issue?

    If the enemy team is being healed for tens of thousands of health every few second then the Rogue has almost got a healer on them.

    You're crying nerf because your team being AoE healed for huge amounts is effectively healing one enemy Rogue for what is still less than one full time healer on that Rogue.

    Or you could just, you know, purge the Rogue. Or kill him?

    I don't really know how to make this any clearer. You guys are crying that VM healing is OP when your team is being healed for FOUR TIMES as much as the Rogue, and that's not even considering debuff uptime, purges, proc chance or cleanse.
    TEAM vs ONE GUY.

    If I could heal 1 person for what my AoEs do, I could make anyone I want be unkillable. 4x2210 + 6x1300 = 16640 per DoL or HC. That's an instant cast or a 1.5s heal doing that much healing to 1 guy.

    That much healing spread across 10 people substantially lower the heal's effectiveness. That much healing being on ONE person makes them unkillable. When we complain that someone is overpowered, being unkillable ranks way, way up there with being able to 1-shot people.

    For instance, if your fan-out hit 1 person for what it hits 8 people collectively, you'd be 1-shotting people. It makes no sense to analyze abilities like that. But VM lets you get healing like that -- broken.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 10-01-2011 at 06:24 PM.

  9. #744
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    Now that healers are lower, the survivability of rogues is basically the same now.

    Ive forgo running heals or stuck to minimal heals (splash heals is all i need to do anything significant)

    Rogue survivability is still the pits. Their damage is up, with minimal heals (splash heals lolchloro heals) their siphons means nothing. Its to the point where the lolrogues who were depending on OP mechancis to win for them, *****ing, how "OP cabalists were" (although at that point, i was an inqui no reparation, didnt cast as single DoL, vex and salvations were my heals) or "i thought trion fixed Fxxxxxing rogues" (that time i was full on dps cabalist. face melting).

    Are you ok with that? Does that solve your problems? Or do you want, the -actual- problem with rogue defense to be fixed?

    Because the minute i reach rank 8, or even better, the magic damage dealing, or the tankier tank builds, are all rank 8, there will be no real change to the problem at hand. Rogues (really NB/MM quite honestly since sins seem to be the same, and most people who play them are complete trash) damage, will still not save them.

    I prefer an actual fix, the scaling of hit being controlled.
    That way, damage goes down, rogues defensive capabilities will be better (or at the very least, there) and people will have to spec, for accuracy, or roll dice with damage.

    You know, like real balanced games do.

    I dunno. I thought the rogue community would have seen through this bandaid fix. So many posts saying that a number of skills and damage abilities and build are rendered useless, because of hit scaling. I would have thought, with as vocal you are, you would scream for that, as opposed to accepting a "fix" that is doomed to be adjusted.

  10. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    TEAM vs ONE GUY.

    If I could heal 1 person for what my AoEs do, I could make anyone I want be unkillable. 4x2210 + 6x1300 = 16640 per DoL or HC. That's an instant cast or a 1.5s heal doing that much healing to 1 guy.

    That much healing spread across 10 people substantially lower the heal's effectiveness. That much healing being on ONE person makes them unkillable. When we complain that someone is overpowered, being unkillable ranks way, way up there with being able to 1-shot people.

    For instance, if your fan-out hit 1 person for what it hits 8 people collectively, you'd be 1-shotting people. It makes no sense to analyze abilities like that. But VM lets you get healing like that -- broken.
    Valid points except the analogy doesn't fit. A Rogue with VM healing from multiple targets is still easily killable. VM is not healing 16k every global like DoL would in your example.
    Any Rogue recieving enough healing through VM to survive through burst/focus fire means that the debuffed enemies are recieving still 4 as much healing and therefor would be 4 times more unkillable than the Rogue.
    Rogues are still very easy to kill even with the healing.
    It's stiill easier to kill a VM healing rogue than a Rogue with a dedicated healer.

  11. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkieri View Post
    Valid points except the analogy doesn't fit. A Rogue with VM healing from multiple targets is still easily killable. VM is not healing 16k every global like DoL would in your example.
    Any Rogue recieving enough healing through VM to survive through burst/focus fire means that the debuffed enemies are recieving still 4 as much healing and therefor would be 4 times more unkillable than the Rogue.
    Rogues are still very easy to kill even with the healing.
    It's stiill easier to kill a VM healing rogue than a Rogue with a dedicated healer.
    You assume the rogues do not have healers themselves.

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflu View Post
    For the sake of argument. Does it matter that he is bias if he is right?
    Not in the least. But the problem I had with this thread was never really about his opinion or his right to have it. I respect Ed's opinion greatly and love watching him on the Sanctum but the tone of his post and the way it was positioned for maximum visibility left a very bad taste in mouth. I am enjoying his comments on the other thread, and while I may not necessarily think it's as bad as he thinks, he certainly has made some valid arguments. Arguments that I think were tarnished by the tone of this post. We all make mistakes so in the end, its not really that big of a deal.

    As for DAOC. TOA did cause the downfall of DAOC, everyone knows it, but its not that TOA was a bad expansion. I think it was one of their best, in fact I think it was one of my favorite expansions by any MMO ever. But it also introduced things which irrevocably and negatively impacted the PVP side of the game. And RVR was very delicatedly balanced. PVP in DAOC is still superior to any other game out there IMO. I was just there a few weeks ago, and though the game is super small now (one classic server, one coop, one full pvp) its got a great playerbase, a great community and above all, fantastic pvp. It doesn't even look that bad for its age. It looks better than EQ certainly.
    Last edited by Khelendross; 10-01-2011 at 07:27 PM.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khelendross View Post
    Not in the least. But the problem I had with this thread was never really about his opinion or his right to have it. I respect Ed's opinion greatly and love watching him on the Sanctum but the tone of his post and the way it was positioned for maximum visibility left a very bad taste in mouth. I am enjoying his comments on the other thread, and while I may not necessarily its as bad as he thinks, he certainly has made some valid arguments. Arguments that I think were tarnished by the tone of this post. We all make mistakes so in the end, its not really that big of a deal.

    As for DAOC. TOA did cause the downfall of DAOC, everyone knows it, but its not that TOA was a bad expansion. I think it was one of their best, in fact I think it was one of my favorite expansions by any MMO ever. But it also introduced things which irrevocably and negatively impacted the PVP side of the game. And RVR was very delicatedly balanced. PVP in DAOC is still superior to any other game out there IMO. I was just there a few weeks ago, and though the game is super small now (one classic server, one coop, one full pvp) its got a great playerbase, a great community and above all, fantastic pvp. It doesn't even look that bad for its age. It looks better than EQ certainly.
    RvR was delicately balanced by a blind man with a sledgehammer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    RvR was delicately balanced by a blind man with a sledgehammer.
    Heh. You are welcome to your opinion but your opinion is wrong

    No system is perfect and DAOC had its fair share of problems. Especially at launch, rangers could pretty much one shot anyone. However they did a pretty damn good job of balancing on the whole. Show me a MMO with balanced PVP and I'll show you an idiot who thinks he has found balanced PVP.

    The balance in RVR was very delicate though due to the distinct class designs in DAOC. Each faction had its own classes. Which meant balancing against other classes was very tenuous. Introducing ML's and artifacts into the equation proved to be disasterous to that precarious balance.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

  15. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    We're not talking about the damage. We're talking about the healing generated for a rogue who has VM up on a number of targets. It's unreasonable.
    Then you can agree that if the healing a rogue who has VM up on a number of targets is getting an unreasonable amount of healing, the solution is to reduce cleric aoe healing. That way the rogue will receive less healing from VM.

    Problem solved.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 10-01-2011 at 08:47 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

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