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Thread: If an R8 can hit Raid/T2 for insane dps, then a PVE'er should do the same in WF's.

  1. #1
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    Default If an R8 can hit Raid/T2 for insane dps, then a PVE'er should do the same in WF's.

    Valor is a problem, I think because the stat completely imbalances the game in favor of PVP to the exclusion of PVE. Think about this..

    An R8 can toss on some hit runes, and go do insane DPS or healing in a T2 or T1-Raid. He can basically face stomp most raiders in either category. Focus is a joke, a R8 healer can do double the HPS of a PVE healer because he can wear full r8 into the raid for insane stats.

    Yet a PVE-Raider cannot suddenly queue up for Warfronts, and top the charts in his PVE gear.

    This tells us that there is a pretty bad imbalance happening here. I was on a GSB raid last night and the R8 mage in mostly R8 gear (and focus runes) was sustained 2000-2500dps single target, and well over 5000+ multiple target. Our best full raid geared PVE'er was about half that - same build - same macros.

    I cannot believe Trion can't see this imbalance. Let me break it down again: R8's can do insane healing and dmg in T1/T2. PVE'ers can't top charts in Warfronts.

    Granted, the primary issue is 45DPS daggers and 60DPS 2 handers in R8 being readily available, and plentiful. While the best GSB 2H drop is a 49dps pewpew sword that is exceptionally rare, and requires 20 dedicated people to get. So in a nutshell, if you want high dps PVE'ing, then you might as well give up raiding altogether, and just go grind out R6 and R8 and forget about half the damn game. Spend 20plat on hit runes, and you are good to go!

    Before you say it, I'm not a carebear. But pvp is pretty broke in Rift, senseless warfront grinding isn't exciting, nor is it challenging. There isn't really much in terms of world pvp other than some zerg-fests. The balance is OK, not great, just OK. The GEAR balance is absolutely so whacked - it makes the game hideously unfun between pve and pvp.
    Last edited by Moebro; 09-26-2011 at 05:01 PM.

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    I want to be able to accumulate marks for simply showing up. Rather the boss dies or not. The way PVPers gain favor/prestige win or lose.

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    Ascendant GoldenTiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    I want to be able to accumulate marks for simply showing up. Rather the boss dies or not. The way PVPers gain favor/prestige win or lose.
    Yep... as I've posted before, the reward system is utterly broken in Rift (and many MMO's) currently for PVP...

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post
    {In regards to open-world PVP being rare on PVP servers}
    This... same thing applies to PVE servers as well... when there's action at the PVP rifts it's fun, but there isn't as much because people can half-AFK (or even fully AFK) warfronts and still obtain the rewards fairly quickly (and guaranteed, there is no risk to lose, just less reward, not even "no reward" just less).

    Warfronts should, frankly, be converted to near-enemy-radius kill credits, a bonus for ONLY the winning side based on score to the entire winning side (but only a small one, maybe 1/10 of what you'd earn for the whole thing if you were actively winning/killing/participating nearby the action or defending a node with a bonus pulsing every so often), and NO bonuses for losing at all (currently you receive a big chunk of prestige/favor at the end just for losing!).

    Open-world RVR areas should provide rewards that are based on capturing the objectives (for some types of currency) and killing (for the rest of the currency and the ranks needed to use the items this currency provides). No more "AFK your way to the top! LOSE YOUR WAY AND WALK AWAY A WINNER!". People WILL gnash their teeth and cry at not being able to get free, effortless, undeserved gear, but it is better for the health of the game and is a much better system for everyone.

    Give us some bonuses for holding onto the RVR areas for people who are out and killing; some crafting nodes that spawn faster/give more resources/whatnot to gather in the RVR area would be great, and give people an incentive to try to go out there even if action's slow at any given hour; same thing goes for if a side's losing, they can still go for the resources or try to kill people going for them.

    Make there be a soft-autoreset mechanism that slowly slides things back towards neutral over the course of a ~2-day period if one side has completely dominated the map. This can be accomplished in many, many ways, from scaling bonuses, to weakening the defenses of structures, to giving boosted rewards to encourage the losing side to show up in greater number and chance getting rolled over, etc.

    Give us some nice open-world PVP areas, fix the broken rewards system that is Warfronts currently (a raider can't AFK their way through Hammerknell and get the top-end gear; why can people AFK their way through Warfronts and get it? I'm an avid RVR-proponent and PVP proponent but this is just outright ridiculously broken), and Rift will have an even better future.

    NINJA-EDIT: And yes, I am in a top 10 US guild, and have played Rift for a long time (since Alpha aka closed beta) through headstart and now with only a couple of months off. I have progressed through the raids. I have progressed through artifacts. I have farmed most of the content of the game to death and beyond, with thousands of plat in the bank and countless more in assets. I have PVP'd plenty. I love PVP, I like PVE, but damn is the reward system broken.
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    I willing to give up Valor (hidden stat applied to all toons equally) if the carebears allow BIS to come from PVP and PVE. This way no matter what mood I am in (smash face / group up) I am always progressing my toon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moebro View Post
    Valor is a problem, I think because the stat completely imbalances the game in favor of PVP to the exclusion of PVE. Think about this..

    An R8 can toss on some hit runes, and go do insane DPS or healing in a T2 or T1-Raid. He can basically face stomp most raiders in either category. Focus is a joke, a R8 healer can do double the HPS of a PVE healer because he can wear full r8 into the raid for insane stats.

    Yet a PVE-Raider cannot suddenly queue up for Warfronts, and top the charts in his PVE gear.

    This tells us that there is a pretty bad imbalance happening here. I was on a GSB raid last night and the R8 mage in mostly R8 gear (and focus runes) was sustained 2000-2500dps single target, and well over 5000+ multiple target. Our best full raid geared PVE'er was about half that - same build - same macros.

    I cannot believe Trion can't see this imbalance. Let me break it down again: R8's can do insane healing and dmg in T1/T2. PVE'ers can't top charts in Warfronts.

    Granted, the primary issue is 45DPS daggers and 60DPS 2 handers in R8 being readily available, and plentiful. While the best GSB 2H drop is a 49dps pewpew sword that is exceptionally rare, and requires 20 dedicated people to get. So in a nutshell, if you want high dps PVE'ing, then you might as well give up raiding altogether, and just go grind out R6 and R8 and forget about half the damn game. Spend 20plat on hit runes, and you are good to go!

    Before you say it, I'm not a carebear. But pvp is pretty broke in Rift, senseless warfront grinding isn't exciting, nor is it challenging. There isn't really much in terms of world pvp other than some zerg-fests. The balance is OK, not great, just OK. The GEAR balance is absolutely so whacked - it makes the game hideously unfun between pve and pvp.
    Isn't R8 supposed to be the equivalent of Hammerknell gear? I'm just wondering, because it seems like you're comparing things that are on different levels. You say an R8 can beat T1 and T2 geared players. Then you turn around and say that a PvE raider can't dominate a warfront. Wouldn't the equivalent of an R8 dominating T1 and T2 dungeons be an fully Hammerknell geared player dominating r1 through r5 or r6?

    I've avoided endgame PvE, so I honeslty don't know a lot about the tiers of PvE gear. Have I got this wrong?

    I agree that the gear in this game is messed up. As far as I understand it, they put two big of a stat spread between our current bottom tier and top tier PvE gear, then gave us PvP prestige gear to keep up with that PvE spread which just spread the problem into PvP.

    The idea that grinding to r8 in PvP is somehow desirable, though, is mindboggling. That's hundreds and hundreds of warfronts. Sure, it's not difficult in the strictest sense, since you can afk your way if you really want to. If you're honestly trying to win each and every warfront, though, it's plenty challenging. Regardless, it's an awful long slog.

    If you are a PvEer and you see grinding months of warfronts as somehow better than progressing through the PvE tiers to get to raiding, I'd have to question whether you really do like the endgame PvE.
    The Roguepocalypse is upon us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by titansgrip View Post
    I want to be able to accumulate marks for simply showing up. Rather the boss dies or not. The way PVPers gain favor/prestige win or lose.
    Okay, but you have to face top tier mobs from the moment you enter your first dungeon after dinging 50.

    The grass is always greener...
    Last edited by Kymeric; 09-26-2011 at 05:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    I willing to give up Valor (hidden stat applied to all toons equally) if the carebears allow BIS to come from PVP and PVE. This way no matter what mood I am in (smash face / group up) I am always progressing my toon.
    Can I get marks if the boss doesn't die? For standing about and not attacking, defending or healing? As I do now in WFs.

    If so, then sure, BiS can come from any thing you like if that were the case.

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    They should change Valor so it increases the damage you recieve from mob attacks that can be reduced by toughness. So no more PvP gear in raids.

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    Here's the issue:

    A raider bringing raid gear into PvP effects other people negatively.

    A PvPer bringing PvP gear into a raid doesn't effect anyone negatively, in fact they're helping the group by outputting decent DPS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lande View Post
    Here's the issue:

    A raider bringing raid gear into PvP effects other people negatively.

    A PvPer bringing PvP gear into a raid doesn't effect anyone negatively, in fact they're helping the group by outputting decent DPS.
    Agreed on this point. Yet, it's still undeserved gear with no skill check involved, which I would like to see implemented with a rewards revamp.
    Last edited by GoldenTiger; 09-26-2011 at 06:02 PM.
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    Prophet of Telara Lande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post
    Agreed on this point. Yet, it's still undeserved gear with no skill check involved, which I would like to see implemented with a rewards revamp.
    I agree there, and would like to see some kind of change as well. I just don't want to see raid gear being awesome in PvP. I still have nightmares about BWL and AQ gear.

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    Lower the amount of Hit/Focus/Toughness on all pieces of PVE gear. But place those stats on all the respective pieces. So that one would need all the pieces to reach the tier quota sans runes. This way PVPer can't just 2 slot and rune their way into HK progression.

    There is no PVE player in full HK token gear as yet. There are thousands of players in r8 gear.

    The weeks following the introduction of r8 PVP gear/PVP rifts/WF weekend, saw the highest number of HK bosses drop in the shortest span since the intro of this raid tier.

    That is disgraceful.
    Last edited by titansgrip; 09-26-2011 at 06:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lande View Post
    I agree there, and would like to see some kind of change as well. I just don't want to see raid gear being awesome in PvP. I still have nightmares about BWL and AQ gear.
    Yeah, I still feel the ideal crossover is maybe 10-15% in terms of lost effectiveness from bringing one type of gear into the other sphere of the game. You shouldn't be able to go in and be the best at pve with mostly pvp gear, but you shouldn't be able to do the reverse either, raiding and then going in and destroying veteran PVP'ers. Of course, this sort of crossover only works if both systems require winning to advance.
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    From a PvPers point of view, I'd be happy if we could only get prestige and favor through wins, as long as I was fighting players who were similar in power.

    The problem is that PvE has this nice progression where T1 gives you the gear you need to succeed in T2. T2 gives the gear you need to succeed in T3.

    In PvP in this game, a fresh 50 gets to start their gear grind by being thrown in with a mix of equivalent and top tier adversaries. There's no way to make gear progression work in that kind of situation based on wins.

    Imagine if, in order to progress in PvE gear, every dungeon had a random mix of Expert Dungeon level mobs and bosses and Hammerknell mobs and bosses. And in order to get better gear, you have to defeat them.
    The Roguepocalypse is upon us!

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