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Thread: Three Overlapping Brackets for lvl 50 WFs

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    Soulwalker
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    Default Three Overlapping Brackets for lvl 50 WFs

    As has been discussed (loose word- more like raged), a lot of people aren't happy with lvl 50 WFs. Too hard/no fun for new 50s, and WTFpwning noobs gets old at P8 for most people.

    A tier bracket system sounds cool- but can screw PvP guilds / friends that want to play together.

    However, I think an overlapping 3 bracket system could work quit well.
    P1-P4
    P3-P6
    P5-P8

    The mid tier folks go wherever the queues need em/ and if there are enough of them they get their own game. On the other hand, the two extremes are separated.

    Also, as long as you are within 3 ranks of your friends, you can play together.

    I have given up on 50 pvp at this point, I hope its fixed to be fun for everyone at some point in some venue. It rightfully should be unbalanced in some venues (world pvp imo)- letting people who have spent the time to lvl pwn- but there should be some place where we can have skill vs skill, instead of gear v gear.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Thickness's Avatar
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    I like this Idea, I'm almost p7.
    Elitism P7 Bahmi Rogue. Battle Bard / MM / Tank / Sin

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    Still people not grasping that the population wouldn't support split brackets. There's nothing wrong with the idea as an isolated concept, but there needs to be enough players across all brackets to pull it off without jacking up queue times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    Still people not grasping that the population wouldn't support split brackets. There's nothing wrong with the idea as an isolated concept, but there needs to be enough players across all brackets to pull it off without jacking up queue times.
    I think its a chicken and egg thing- queue times might be long right now because a lot of people have given up on PVP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    Still people not grasping that the population wouldn't support split brackets. There's nothing wrong with the idea as an isolated concept, but there needs to be enough players across all brackets to pull it off without jacking up queue times.
    How do we specifically know without actually trying? Like the poster above said it might be because rift pvp is so imbalance that people just stop playing.

    Also adding 1 or 2 more shards a cluster might fix the problem, might not, its called testing.

    We wait 20 minutes for ques anyway, people usually just afk and browse the internet till the rift minimizer icon starts blinking and giving them a seizure.

    Overall I think the 3 brackets is a good idea to try. And it won't hurt to try.
    Last edited by Support; 09-23-2011 at 04:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlMaximus View Post
    As has been discussed (loose word- more like raged), a lot of people aren't happy with lvl 50 WFs. Too hard/no fun for new 50s, and WTFpwning noobs gets old at P8 for most people.

    A tier bracket system sounds cool- but can screw PvP guilds / friends that want to play together.

    However, I think an overlapping 3 bracket system could work quit well.
    P1-P4
    P3-P6
    P5-P8

    The mid tier folks go wherever the queues need em/ and if there are enough of them they get their own game. On the other hand, the two extremes are separated.

    Also, as long as you are within 3 ranks of your friends, you can play together.

    I have given up on 50 pvp at this point, I hope its fixed to be fun for everyone at some point in some venue. It rightfully should be unbalanced in some venues (world pvp imo)- letting people who have spent the time to lvl pwn- but there should be some place where we can have skill vs skill, instead of gear v gear.
    It's not just new 50's at r5 it still sucks, not as bad tho...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlMaximus View Post
    I think its a chicken and egg thing- queue times might be long right now because a lot of people have given up on PVP.
    It's a big risk, and it has implications that go beyond simply addressing what is going on in PvP right at this moment. People transition through ranks the same way they transition through zones when they're leveling. What happens if the top rank brackets wind up regularly underpopulated or, as the game matures, lower rank brackets become ghost towns? It's one of those things where the devs can't really win. Risking a dramatic increase in queue times to segregate the brackets only to find that the queue times remained long would piss people off. Top rank players sitting through long queues waiting for an influx of new players to rank up to their tier would not be happy at all.

    I've got two rank 3 rogues. I can get obliterated in a heartbeat if I'm not paying attention or I overextend, but I can also contribute meaningfully if I keep an eye on my surroundings and give due thought to what I'm attempting instead of just charging at the first red name I see and complaining when I get focused because I made myself an attractive target.

    If the devs announced tomorrow that they were going to try segregating level 50 warfronts into rank brackets, I wouldn't complain but if it jacked up queue times I'd probably have some concerns to bring up. As it stands, people often see 20+ minute queues depending on time of day and faction population balance, Splitting up the pool of players to draw from is not going to help that. And based on personal anecdotal experience, the kinds of people who stop running warfronts because they get blown up all the time are generally the kinds of people who will always find something to complain about. Take away the rank issue and they'll be "quitting" PvP because so-and-so is OP, or the maps aren't perfectly symmetrical, or or or...

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    Ascendant Lords0fpain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    It's a big risk, and it has implications that go beyond simply addressing what is going on in PvP right at this moment. People transition through ranks the same way they transition through zones when they're leveling. What happens if the top rank brackets wind up regularly underpopulated or, as the game matures, lower rank brackets become ghost towns? It's one of those things where the devs can't really win. Risking a dramatic increase in queue times to segregate the brackets only to find that the queue times remained long would piss people off. Top rank players sitting through long queues waiting for an influx of new players to rank up to their tier would not be happy at all.

    I've got two rank 3 rogues. I can get obliterated in a heartbeat if I'm not paying attention or I overextend, but I can also contribute meaningfully if I keep an eye on my surroundings and give due thought to what I'm attempting instead of just charging at the first red name I see and complaining when I get focused because I made myself an attractive target.

    If the devs announced tomorrow that they were going to try segregating level 50 warfronts into rank brackets, I wouldn't complain but if it jacked up queue times I'd probably have some concerns to bring up. As it stands, people often see 20+ minute queues depending on time of day and faction population balance, Splitting up the pool of players to draw from is not going to help that. And based on personal anecdotal experience, the kinds of people who stop running warfronts because they get blown up all the time are generally the kinds of people who will always find something to complain about. Take away the rank issue and they'll be "quitting" PvP because so-and-so is OP, or the maps aren't perfectly symmetrical, or or or...
    This is why a rank system (combined with gear) was not a good idea. I hate long que times, but I'm not even playing right now, because we are getting face-rolled every game in the "bonus weekend"... rather do other stuff (making platinum, gaining rep, planarite, etc) while waiting for a que,than wasting my time getting face-rolled in an unbalanced WF.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlMaximus View Post
    I think its a chicken and egg thing- queue times might be long right now because a lot of people have given up on PVP.
    This^ I did just enough to get the faction trinket on my rogue and I won't be doing any more lvl 50 pvp till something changes. I will just run on lower alts to get my pvp fix. Sucks though since I am an achievement hound and there is a large chunk I won't see.

    Edit-just adding I am P2, almost P3, also I rarely have had a wait time over a few minutes(1-5)aside from say 5am-10am. Then maybe max 10 minutes. I would like it if they at least showed the ranks in the player list in each wf or get some input from a dev actually stating this is how they wanted/expected it to be.
    Last edited by Gittyup; 09-23-2011 at 05:28 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lords0fpain View Post
    This is why a rank system (combined with gear) was not a good idea. I hate long que times, but I'm not even playing right now, because we are getting face-rolled every game in the "bonus weekend"... rather do other stuff (making platinum, gaining rep, planarite, etc) while waiting for a que,than wasting my time getting face-rolled in an unbalanced WF.
    That's the style of PvP the devs have opted to go with. I don't really expect it to change all that much or if it does change, it won't be until an expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    It's a big risk, and it has implications that go beyond simply addressing what is going on in PvP right at this moment. People transition through ranks the same way they transition through zones when they're leveling. What happens if the top rank brackets wind up regularly underpopulated or, as the game matures, lower rank brackets become ghost towns? It's one of those things where the devs can't really win. Risking a dramatic increase in queue times to segregate the brackets only to find that the queue times remained long would piss people off. Top rank players sitting through long queues waiting for an influx of new players to rank up to their tier would not be happy at all.

    I've got two rank 3 rogues. I can get obliterated in a heartbeat if I'm not paying attention or I overextend, but I can also contribute meaningfully if I keep an eye on my surroundings and give due thought to what I'm attempting instead of just charging at the first red name I see and complaining when I get focused because I made myself an attractive target.

    If the devs announced tomorrow that they were going to try segregating level 50 warfronts into rank brackets, I wouldn't complain but if it jacked up queue times I'd probably have some concerns to bring up. As it stands, people often see 20+ minute queues depending on time of day and faction population balance, Splitting up the pool of players to draw from is not going to help that. And based on personal anecdotal experience, the kinds of people who stop running warfronts because they get blown up all the time are generally the kinds of people who will always find something to complain about. Take away the rank issue and they'll be "quitting" PvP because so-and-so is OP, or the maps aren't perfectly symmetrical, or or or...
    Thanks for constructive criticism. I see where you're coming from. I really wouldn't mind if after so long (15-20 minutes) they just lumped everyone together. But I'd like a chance at fair play.

    Another idea is to be able to earn prestige while lvling 10-49- That way if you hate PvP as a new 50, you could just roll a PvP char and lvl PvP only. Of course prestige itself wouldn't matter until 50, but that way if you put your time in early you can hit the ground running.

    I'm really up for any ideas to make this work, I love PvP- but once I hit lvl 50 it just stopped being fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlMaximus View Post
    Thanks for constructive criticism. I see where you're coming from. I really wouldn't mind if after so long (15-20 minutes) they just lumped everyone together. But I'd like a chance at fair play.

    Another idea is to be able to earn prestige while lvling 10-49- That way if you hate PvP as a new 50, you could just roll a PvP char and lvl PvP only. Of course prestige itself wouldn't matter until 50, but that way if you put your time in early you can hit the ground running.

    I'm really up for any ideas to make this work, I love PvP- but once I hit lvl 50 it just stopped being fun.
    I've leveled both of my rogues primarily through warfronts and now I've got a 29 cleric and a 26 mage, also leveled primarily through warfronts up to this point. There's no doubt about it, warfronts while leveling are a lot more forgiving. And there's also the dynamic that comes into play as you level through a particular bracket. The Ascended Courage buff you get as a lower level player in the bracket helps, but you're still at a disadvantage relative to the players near the top of the level range. Good players on the other team level out of the bracket. Bad players on your team level out of the bracket. The scene in any given level range can literally change from week to week and day to day. Once you hit 50, it changes. It takes you longer to "level" to the top of the bracket where you're the one with the advantage, and the people at the top of the bracket when you first arrive stay at the top.

    It's just endgame. It's not really all that different from the PvE leveling experience vs. the endgame content experience. Leveling is casual and forgiving. Progressing through endgame content frequently is not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    It's just endgame. It's not really all that different from the PvE leveling experience vs. the endgame content experience. Leveling is casual and forgiving. Progressing through endgame content frequently is not.
    It is quite different though, you don't hit 50 as a full pve'r and expect to run straight into HK. You run dungeons, get crafted gear, raid/expert rifts and progress through it much more slowly than simply hitting 50 queue for a wf where you are up against players who are basically the equivenlent to HK. But I guess that is where the gaining prestige while leveling idea would come in handy. But if you are like me and like to do both pvp and pve it kinda cuts you off from one or the other partially. The separate brackets idea is the best idea I have seen, given the downside is the possiblity of longer waits. But I often wonder if this is what TW had in mind, or if the loss of some of the starter players forced their hand to avoid the long waits?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gittyup View Post
    It is quite different though, you don't hit 50 as a full pve'r and expect to run straight into HK. You run dungeons, get crafted gear, raid/expert rifts and progress through it much more slowly than simply hitting 50 queue for a wf where you are up against players who are basically the equivenlent to HK. But I guess that is where the gaining prestige while leveling idea would come in handy. But if you are like me and like to do both pvp and pve it kinda cuts you off from one or the other partially. The separate brackets idea is the best idea I have seen, given the downside is the possiblity of longer waits. But I often wonder if this is what TW had in mind, or if the loss of some of the starter players forced their hand to avoid the long waits?
    I haven't run a T2 dungeon since before they were nerfed, but as I recall you could die just as quickly in a T2 dungeon as you could in a warfront against a rank 8 player. And if it's not rank 8 players wrecking you, it'll be premades focusing fire. And if it's not premades focusing fire, it'll be coordinated PUGs. And if it's not coordinated PUGs, it'll be group composition that bites you in the arse.

    It's very much the nature of group PvP to die quickly. And I guarantee you I could go into a level 50 warfront as a member of the "underdog" faction and be able to objectively point out the mistakes my own team made that screwed them over just as much as (if not more than) a rank disparity. I've been on the underdog side of things and the overwhelming majority of the time, our losses came from sloppy/inept play.

    Every calling has the tools to put together a build that will allow them the mobility and the survivability they need as a low ranked player in mixed rank warfronts. Whether or not people make use of those tools is up to them. Trion may decide to change things. They may not. In the meantime, all players can do is adapt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    I haven't run a T2 dungeon since before they were nerfed, but as I recall you could die just as quickly in a T2 dungeon as you could in a warfront against a rank 8 player. And if it's not rank 8 players wrecking you, it'll be premades focusing fire. And if it's not premades focusing fire, it'll be coordinated PUGs. And if it's not coordinated PUGs, it'll be group composition that bites you in the arse.

    It's very much the nature of group PvP to die quickly. And I guarantee you I could go into a level 50 warfront as a member of the "underdog" faction and be able to objectively point out the mistakes my own team made that screwed them over just as much as (if not more than) a rank disparity. I've been on the underdog side of things and the overwhelming majority of the time, our losses came from sloppy/inept play.

    Every calling has the tools to put together a build that will allow them the mobility and the survivability they need as a low ranked player in mixed rank warfronts. Whether or not people make use of those tools is up to them. Trion may decide to change things. They may not. In the meantime, all players can do is adapt.
    T2 you die quickly if you don't know what you're doing- but if you have skill and a decent smattering of T1 gear- you're fine. I ran one tonight with a junk team- it took an hour and a half with 6 wipes, but with a good team (not uber geared just good)- I've run the same dungeon in 45min.

    However in PvP I am a fairly skilled player- usually #1 or #2 of the WF in whatever role I decide to take (pre 50)- but at 50 if you aren't a healer you can't be useful for a long time. And being useless isn't fun. The moment you hit 50 you can be useful in a T1 if you are good.

    There are a lot of stupid team decisions that lead to losses and yes that is frustrating- but win or lose- right now I don't feel I helped much. I don't whine about losing, as long as its a reasonably close game, and I feel I contributed I have fun. Just right now (P2), I cant do much besides try to be a cc bot.
    Last edited by GlMaximus; 09-23-2011 at 11:47 PM.

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