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Thread: Implement MOBA Systems for PvP

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Implement MOBA Systems for PvP

    The reason pvp sucks right now is because Trion has taken the pve progression route for pvp. There are 3 types of incredibly successful online pvp games: moba, rts, fps

    Looking at these games all 3 of them have something in common. They all provide a nominal incentive for players to keep playing them and, with few exceptions, most of these games do not have hugely powerful skills/items that transfer over from round to round.

    So without further ado here are my suggestions:

    1. Make prestige ranking fluctuate, track stats and have people gain or lose prestige with wins. Similar to the ranking systems ins SC2 and HoN. This will make WFs more competitive and encourage teams to work together as there is now a penalty for losing. There is no guaranteed progress for rank.

    2. Make more ranks and give them titles, not just R1-R8 give them military ranks or something to make them nice embellishments rather than just a boring number. Also limit the number of generals/champions whatnot, I like Aion's system where only the top player can be a General and there are a fixed number of the top tiers, but everything below that is a fixed number of kill exp.

    3. Give higher ranks more team coordination options. ex... always make highest rank leader of the raid. Have a rank cutoff for who can use voice chat (IMPLEMENT THIS PLEASE) or mark objectives make announcements whatever.

    4. Implement fixed PvP gear sets for your rank that you get automatically (allow mixing and matching for caster/healer/tank/melee etc...). On open PvP servers these sets should provide a small bonus in PvP over PvE, something on the order of maybe 5% player damage reduction, 5% increased damage against players.

    5. Logarithmic PvP gear growth. Players should be working towards better gear, but it should not be way OP. The best gear should only be 10-15% better than the starter gear, but it should be much more aesthetically pleasing (*cough* give all the guys who rolled female toons the option to skimpify their characters, that would increase PvP right there by a factor of 10).

    6. Let's get competitive here. Implement seasons for pvp with rankings on both sides. Give prizes to the top teams, cash, collectibles etc... At some point RvR events would be pretty cool too, but that will probably take a lot of overhead to implement.

    Cheers everyone, let me know what you think.
    Last edited by ChopstickNINJ4; 09-21-2011 at 10:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    One more suggestion.

    7. Let players equip 2 sets of gear. A PvE set and a PvP set, the PvP set stats should kick in whenever a player engages in PvP mode. Raid gear should not factor in when PvPing amongst level 50's that's for dungeons.
    Last edited by ChopstickNINJ4; 09-21-2011 at 10:19 PM.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChopstickNINJ4 View Post
    The reason pvp sucks right now is because Trion has taken the pve progression route for pvp. There are 3 types of incredibly successful online pvp games: moba, rts, fps

    Looking at these games all 3 of them have something in common. They all provide a nominal incentive for players to keep playing them and, with few exceptions, most of these games do not have hugely powerful skills/items that transfer over from round to round.

    So without further ado here are my suggestions:

    1. Make prestige ranking fluctuate, track stats and have people gain or lose prestige with wins. Similar to the ranking systems ins SC2 and HoN. This will make WFs more competitive and encourage teams to work together as there is now a penalty for losing. There is no guaranteed progress for rank.

    2. Make more ranks and give them titles, not just R1-R8 give them military ranks or something to make them nice embellishments rather than just a boring number. Also limit the number of generals/champions whatnot, I like Aion's system where only the top player can be a General and there are a fixed number of the top tiers, but everything below that is a fixed number of kill exp.

    3. Give higher ranks more team coordination options. ex... always make highest rank leader of the raid. Have a rank cutoff for who can use voice chat (IMPLEMENT THIS PLEASE) or mark objectives make announcements whatever.

    4. Implement fixed PvP gear sets for your rank that you get automatically (allow mixing and matching for caster/healer/tank/melee etc...). On open PvP servers these sets should provide a small bonus in PvP over PvE, something on the order of maybe 5% player damage reduction, 5% increased damage against players.

    5. Logarithmic PvP gear growth. Players should be working towards better gear, but it should not be way OP. The best gear should only be 10-15% better than the starter gear, but it should be much more aesthetically pleasing (*cough* give all the guys who rolled female toons the option to skimpify their characters, that would increase PvP right there by a factor of 10).

    6. Let's get competitive here. Implement seasons for pvp with rankings on both sides. Give prizes to the top teams, cash, collectibles etc... At some point RvR events would be pretty cool too, but that will probably take a lot of overhead to implement.

    Cheers everyone, let me know what you think.
    All Hail The Hypno Toad!

    A Very well written post. Some very well thought through idea about how to create a better (Superior) PvP System

    I am not sure Trion is ready to implement such as system, sadly so, even though it would clearly increase the quality of PvP by a Wide Margin. Making PvP Competitive to such a degree as you suggest, for everyone, Might not be good for everyone. (The crying and the rivers of tears form all the Scrubs would be cataclysmic). But it would appeal to a significant segment of the Player Population.

    Once More With Feeling: A really well written and well thought through post. An Inspiration to everyone who care about the PvP in Rift


    Regards

    Acererak

  4. #4
    Telaran FourRums's Avatar
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    1. Penalizing people for losing will not make PvP more competitive. It appears most battlegroups are imbalanced with one faction dominating the other. Even if this is not true throughout the entire day, people will not continue to play if they are constantly penalized for losing. They will just quit or move to a battlegroup that favors their faction.

    2. So reward people who PvP 24/7? How do you determine the top player? The guy with the most kb's? Most damage? Most healing? You start to ignore those who do the little things like cc or stonerunners whose numbers will not match up to the dps juggernaut.

    3. LOL Seriously? This is not RL so there's no consequence for ignoring the dictation of the guy who plays 24/7 and therefore has a big title. I'm following the guy who knows what he's doing.

    5. Agree that the difference in gear levels needs to far less than it is now. The valor stat alone should compensate for people trying to use raid gear to PvP.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Definitely some good ideas in there!

  6. #6
    Ascendant
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    I disagree. A lot. I do believe you put a lot of thought into your post, but you didn't consider the MMORPG side of things as much as you could have.

    What this will do is motivate a few people to play. It will dissuade a lot more from playing. One of the features of most MOBA is the ability to "pick your hero" for the fight. Random lot, if nothing else.

    People play MMORPG for the continuity and persistence of the world. You are attempting, subtly, to introduce arenas into Rift. Arena was arguably one of the worst things Blizzard ever did to their community. As soon as they moved arena into its own "service" (competitive arena), things quieted down.

    Combine that with the concept of "ranking decay" and you have a first class grind-fest with little connection to your character, server (which is already tenuous) and teammates.

    I understand why some want this. I think MMORPG is a very bad place to do this.

    A modified RvR concept, IMO works much better. Part of the reason that Eve's PvP is so successful is that there is large separation between the various Corps - in other words, the map is huge and fights typically occur in resource heavy areas. I think the DAOC RvR would have been even better if the area had been expanded. That allows for strategic as well as simple tactical movement and conquest. Just my opinion.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker Odnoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChopstickNINJ4 View Post
    The reason pvp sucks right now is because Trion has taken the pve progression route for pvp. There are 3 types of incredibly successful online pvp games: moba, rts, fps

    Looking at these games all 3 of them have something in common. They all provide a nominal incentive for players to keep playing them and, with few exceptions, most of these games do not have hugely powerful skills/items that transfer over from round to round.

    So without further ado here are my suggestions:

    1. Make prestige ranking fluctuate, track stats and have people gain or lose prestige with wins. Similar to the ranking systems ins SC2 and HoN. This will make WFs more competitive and encourage teams to work together as there is now a penalty for losing. There is no guaranteed progress for rank.

    2. Make more ranks and give them titles, not just R1-R8 give them military ranks or something to make them nice embellishments rather than just a boring number. Also limit the number of generals/champions whatnot, I like Aion's system where only the top player can be a General and there are a fixed number of the top tiers, but everything below that is a fixed number of kill exp.

    3. Give higher ranks more team coordination options. ex... always make highest rank leader of the raid. Have a rank cutoff for who can use voice chat (IMPLEMENT THIS PLEASE) or mark objectives make announcements whatever.

    4. Implement fixed PvP gear sets for your rank that you get automatically (allow mixing and matching for caster/healer/tank/melee etc...). On open PvP servers these sets should provide a small bonus in PvP over PvE, something on the order of maybe 5% player damage reduction, 5% increased damage against players.

    5. Logarithmic PvP gear growth. Players should be working towards better gear, but it should not be way OP. The best gear should only be 10-15% better than the starter gear, but it should be much more aesthetically pleasing (*cough* give all the guys who rolled female toons the option to skimpify their characters, that would increase PvP right there by a factor of 10).

    6. Let's get competitive here. Implement seasons for pvp with rankings on both sides. Give prizes to the top teams, cash, collectibles etc... At some point RvR events would be pretty cool too, but that will probably take a lot of overhead to implement.

    Cheers everyone, let me know what you think.
    1. This did not work well in Aion. Eventually one side became more dominant and that was the end of any hopes of faction balance. Mentioning Aion in you post, I am surprised you mentioned this.

    Everything else sounds good though.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    I think those were very good ideas...

    Not sure about the rank fluctuation though...might be any rank penalties would make the pug climate unbearable.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Jorath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FourRums View Post
    5. Agree that the difference in gear levels needs to far less than it is now. The valor stat alone should compensate for people trying to use raid gear to PvP.
    The problem with this is they are making equivelent gear for PvP and PvE.

    They don't want you coming out with your first PvP set with your first set of gear being equal to t1 Raid gear. So you can't just give away P4-P6 or Intance runners and Raiders will complain

    Also you will complain just as hard if they nerf all PvP sets down to like P4 because then HK raiders will come in with relic items and school everyone, hard. (Valor or no valor a Relic Chlor/lock will school you and there will be nothing you can do about it in your P4 gear. Valor or no valor a Relic weilding 2H riftblade will school you in your P4 gear)

    PvPers want their gear outside of warfronts so they can Openworld PvP so you can't do buffs inside of warfronts.

    This is a no win situation. People are going to QQ extremely hard no matter what they do.
    Last edited by Jorath; 09-22-2011 at 09:03 AM.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    I should have elaborated To determine top ranking do it by win rate with more than say 20 games per rank to stop people who only have 2 wins from having the highest ranking

    So say there's 10 ranks. Generals would be picked out of the players who have the highes win rate who have at least a total of 200 wf games.

    This is the most fair ranking system. Win rate is blind, yes pugs suck, but that's something everyone will deal with equally.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker
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    So at the begin of a match i check if i am the only r8 in my group, and if thats the case i recall.

    Nah- such a system makes sense in competetive play but not in completely random play where you can't pick your team mates.
    I'm being punished enough with my high pulse for the bad team mates I get sometimes.
    Last edited by Tulia; 09-22-2011 at 11:14 AM.

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChopstickNINJ4 View Post
    1. Make prestige ranking fluctuate, track stats and have people gain or lose prestige with wins. Similar to the ranking systems ins SC2 and HoN. This will make WFs more competitive and encourage teams to work together as there is now a penalty for losing. There is no guaranteed progress for rank.
    Terrible idea. You'll only widen the gap between winners and losers. Winning makes it easier to keep winning, while losing makes it easier to keep losing.

    2. Make more ranks and give them titles, not just R1-R8 give them military ranks or something to make them nice embellishments rather than just a boring number. Also limit the number of generals/champions whatnot, I like Aion's system where only the top player can be a General and there are a fixed number of the top tiers, but everything below that is a fixed number of kill exp.
    No point to this either. Ranks already have titles associated with them. Why do you want to further divide the better players into even more "elite" ranks? I don't see how this makes PvP more fun for everyone.

    3. Give higher ranks more team coordination options. ex... always make highest rank leader of the raid. Have a rank cutoff for who can use voice chat (IMPLEMENT THIS PLEASE) or mark objectives make announcements whatever.
    Again, absolutely terrible idea. Let's give higher ranks more tools to make winning easier? You're just serving to widen the gap between ranks, something that's already a problem. And furthermore, most players are already sick of Mr. R8 coming into the raid and bossing peopel around like it's his job. You want to further exasperate this? No thanks!

    4. Implement fixed PvP gear sets for your rank that you get automatically (allow mixing and matching for caster/healer/tank/melee etc...). On open PvP servers these sets should provide a small bonus in PvP over PvE, something on the order of maybe 5% player damage reduction, 5% increased damage against players.
    Trying to make sense of this one? Having trouble. So you want special PvP gear for each rank? With the exception of giving them to you upon ranking up, Rift already does this. And PvP gear already provides the bonuses you mentioned against other players.

    5. Logarithmic PvP gear growth. Players should be working towards better gear, but it should not be way OP. The best gear should only be 10-15% better than the starter gear, but it should be much more aesthetically pleasing (*cough* give all the guys who rolled female toons the option to skimpify their characters, that would increase PvP right there by a factor of 10).
    The problem is stat inflation on all gear in an MMO. PvP gear has to scale in equivilant to PvE gear, or you have problems with PvE gear being BIS for everything, while PvP gear gets left in the dust. Again, another terrible idea.

    6. Let's get competitive here. Implement seasons for pvp with rankings on both sides. Give prizes to the top teams, cash, collectibles etc... At some point RvR events would be pretty cool too, but that will probably take a lot of overhead to implement.
    Again, you just widen the gap between the 24/7 PvP experts and the rest of the group. If anything, you could add more cosmetic or "fun" items for people to buy with Favor, so those that are R8 with all their gear and nothing to buy can spend money on stuff, but it should be far from acheivement based, unless you're using the already in-place Achievement system. (IE, you get a special pet for completing the Port Scion achiements).

    Cheers everyone, let me know what you think.
    On the whole, all very terrible ideas. I wish I could respond to this thread without bumping it.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironzerg View Post
    Terrible idea. You'll only widen the gap between winners and losers. Winning makes it easier to keep winning, while losing makes it easier to keep losing.
    This makes no sense, I am looking to REDUCE the gap in gear, high rank players have nowhere to go but down while skilled players stuck in the lower ranks due to time constraints will move up. The only difference will be in skill, and if you suck then you belong in the lower bracket. This is PvP it's not supposed to be guaranteed progress and nice cuddly times.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironzerg View Post
    No point to this either. Ranks already have titles associated with them. Why do you want to further divide the better players into even more "elite" ranks? I don't see how this makes PvP more fun for everyone.
    R1-R8 is boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironzerg View Post
    Again, absolutely terrible idea. Let's give higher ranks more tools to make winning easier? You're just serving to widen the gap between ranks, something that's already a problem. And furthermore, most players are already sick of Mr. R8 coming into the raid and bossing peopel around like it's his job. You want to further exasperate this? No thanks!
    No, Mr. R8 will only stay Mr. R8 if he leads his teams to victory. So yes, you should be listening to him if he's doing better than you because there's a reason he has a higher win rate. Again, the gap is now being determined by skill as it should be, not just based on how much free time you have to burn grinding.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironzerg View Post
    Trying to make sense of this one? Having trouble. So you want special PvP gear for each rank? With the exception of giving them to you upon ranking up, Rift already does this. And PvP gear already provides the bonuses you mentioned against other players. The problem is stat inflation on all gear in an MMO. PvP gear has to scale in equivilant to PvE gear, or you have problems with PvE gear being BIS for everything, while PvP gear gets left in the dust. Again, another terrible idea.
    No, rift does not give you gear automatically, you still have to purchase it and again R1's are gimped on gear. For PvP I meant that when you engage a player in PvP it will automatically set both players stats equal to their PvP gear effectively separating PvE and PvP gear and getting rid of the whole keep up with PvE progression problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironzerg View Post
    Again, you just widen the gap between the 24/7 PvP experts and the rest of the group. If anything, you could add more cosmetic or "fun" items for people to buy with Favor, so those that are R8 with all their gear and nothing to buy can spend money on stuff, but it should be far from acheivement based, unless you're using the already in-place Achievement system. (IE, you get a special pet for completing the Port Scion achiements).

    On the whole, all very terrible ideas. I wish I could respond to this thread without bumping it.
    No, a 10-15% increase in ranks with logarithmic growth is a much reduced difference than what exists right now in gear. Please actually think before replying to posts and telling people their ideas are bad if you barely understand the existing mechanics or the ideas presented by others. Oh yeah, just for you *BUMP*
    Last edited by ChopstickNINJ4; 09-22-2011 at 07:52 PM.

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