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Thread: Healers need another nerf

  1. #1
    Banned Toxen's Avatar
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    Default Healers need another nerf

    I know I'll be yelled at or flamed for this but once again healers need a nerf.

    47sin/19In/0BD

    I had expose weakness up, stealth surprise jagged strike, Punture, impale, foulplay *4 second stun*, Anathema *50% healing reduction for 30 seconds*, Sleight of hand *drops a buff on your target*, slip away, jagged strike, impale, and final blow.

    The Mage healer didn't move once, didn't pop break free, and just stood there taking the attacks from me, put one dot on me, and laughed the whole time.

    I have a almost full set of armor Rank 7 complete Rank 8 working still, have P8 daggers x 2 and the P8 bow, synergy crystals, and Iron Fist *PvP* trinket.

    The mage healer didnt even get below 60% health the entire time.

    So... I want to know how this is balanced when its one on one?
    Last edited by Toxen; 09-21-2011 at 06:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Banned Toxen's Avatar
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    I apologize I was a little mad when I made this thread trying to figure out what I did wrong.

    The Edits I want to mention is:

    "slip away, jagged strike, impale, and final blow." is incorrect.

    This was suppose to be slip away, jagged strike, puncture, and final blow.


    I also want to explain a bit more detail on the tree.

    Bladedancer was chosen for the talent "Side Steps".

    19 points into "Infiltrator"Tree:

    PS 5/5, KK 5/5, MT 2/2, FI 3/3, going to the left side I got.. SoH 1/1, PtI 2/2, and ET 1/5.

    47 points into "Assassin" Tree:

    Everything is maxed out except for the following abilities:

    Enduring Brew and Double Cross.

    The "Enduring Brew" I never found very useful to be honest because its too easy to waste 5 button presses trying to heal up real quick instead of causing dps and most of the time, I've never found any real use for it, I did try it but it caused alot of survivability problems and keep the DoTs up and refreshed in the rotations.

    Why I didn't choose "Double Cross" is simple, it increases damage when behind and in PvP they are always jumping around or moving and very hard to keep this talent useful.


    Now the reason I was mad is because this spec was suppose to be a kill spec for healers and the Anathema *50% Healing Reduction* along with the Pardon the Interruption *20% chance per combo point to interrupt spell cast* was not enough to help me kill this Hybrid Mage healer and it was at 60% health the entire time, with no Cool Downs left, I was completely left open to do any decent Damage as the DoTs that I spec into the talent to increase its damage was being healed by the HoTs and I just think it was unbalanced that Healers can heal threw Anathema and stay above 60% makes this spec a pretty useless.

    So... anyways.

    Thank you for reading.
    Last edited by Toxen; 09-21-2011 at 07:51 PM.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    1v1 wPvP or 1v1 WF?

    Because 9/10 1v1 wf = 1 v 1 + 5 other healers.

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    Banned Toxen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    1v1 wPvP or 1v1 WF?

    Because 9/10 1v1 wf = 1 v 1 + 5 other healers.
    This was 1 versus 1.

    The healer on my server was carrying a shard to the return point during a PvP Rift and I lost while the healer stood still, accepted the stuns I gave, and placed One DoT on me and I died after so long into the fight.

    She didn't bother to use break free.

    Now in Warfronts I understand this spec sucks because there are so many HoTs this spec is useless and only useful if its only 2 healers because I can save "Blind" and burn the healer down then focus on the other.

    If three healers sometimes I get lucky on crits and able to kill all three if and only if they are within range for Poisen Gas *AoE stun* and don't have break free.
    Last edited by Toxen; 09-21-2011 at 08:05 PM.

  5. #5
    Rift Master Click's Avatar
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    Your spec is garbage. There's no reason for you to go 47 Sin and forgo the remaining 4 points to get Serpent Strike. SS is necessary to burst people down in PvP. Without it, you're just tickling pure healing specs. Also, you'll be useless against anyone smart enough to kite you without Ranger, Marksman, or Nightblade in your Sin spec.

    I can usually kill a Warden by myself on my Sin. The only Cleric spec that cannot be solo'd is probably Purifier/Sent combo. They can maintain shields on themselves and their healing targets constantly, as well as full healing themselves (and other teammates) to full with half second Healing Communions.

    Having said that, raid-wide, cross healing does need to be toned down a lot more. The 5-10% healing nerf did nothing. Good healers are still able to tank 3 or more DPS focus firing them, even with healing debuff on them 24/7... if they have cross healing. That's really the main problem in this game. Cross heals in raids make healers overpowered. It's not the individual healers that are overpowered. It's the 3+ healing specs all healing each other... stacking HoTs, damage shields, AoE healing, constant channeled healing (Chloros and Bards), and huge burst instant heals.
    Last edited by Click; 09-21-2011 at 08:28 PM.

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    Banned Toxen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Click View Post
    Your spec is garbage. There's no reason for you to go 47 Sin and forgo the remaining 4 points to get Serpent Strike. SS is necessary to burst people down in PvP. Without it, you're just tickling pure healing specs. Also, you'll be useless against anyone smart enough to kite you without Ranger, Marksman, or Nightblade in your Sin spec.

    I can usually kill a Warden by myself on my Sin. The only Cleric spec that cannot be solo'd is probably Purifier/Sent combo. They can maintain shields on themselves and their healing targets constantly, as well as full healing themselves (and other teammates) to full with half second Healing Communions.

    Having said that, raid-wide, cross healing does need to be toned down a lot more. The 5-10% healing nerf did nothing. Good healers are still able to tank 3 or more DPS focus firing them, even with healing debuff on them 24/7... if they have cross healing. That's really the main problem in this game. Cross heals in raids make healers overpowered. It's not the individual healers that are overpowered. It's the 3+ healing specs all healing each other... stacking HoTs, damage shields, AoE healing, constant channeled healing (Chloros and Bards), and huge burst instant heals.
    Yes but even so, I dont agree with the whole idea of a pure PvE spec, the really need to rework the PvP Souls because only break free is useful by the majority of player opinion.

    I was trying to find a way to use the PvP soul effectively.

    I understand not having a 51 talent for that last ability for burst is bad but in the rogue PvP tree the talents to build up damage over 5 seconds should be able to counter that ability lost.

    Clearly its not, so a buff is required.

    Now as for the kiting yes its annoying but I found the kiting is useless. If you get the Jagged strike, foul play *4 second stun*, puncture, and Impale off; you can slip away and spam expose weakness and let the dots tick and wait for Immune CD to reset. Then finished them off.

    Now against a healer the strategy is to get the DoTs on first, slip away then stun them a 2nd time and do that last rotation I posted, the correct one.

    78% of the time it one shots the healers unless, like you say they have too many instant heals, soup up HoTs, or bubble/shields.

    Usually this combo gets them below 30% and then I spam SS and Puncture and get Baneful Touch up combined with Poison Malice and that should finish them off 1v1 and in a warfront it forces the healer down below 8% and by that time an extra player *DPS* is suppose to help me kill the healer to win the warfront.
    Last edited by Toxen; 09-21-2011 at 08:52 PM.

  7. #7
    Sword of Telara Wawer's Avatar
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    So what you say is that you think that it is OK for someone to SOLO kill a healer that is healing himself with 5 other healers healing him as well?
    Here my suggestion
    Re-Roll a raid boss or quit
    Deepstrike:Gintoki cleric r47 Shinpachi warrior r46, Kayura rogue r50, Tsukuyo mage r47
    Laethys: Roba r44
    GW2:Ayo Timako , level 54 Necro

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxen View Post
    If three healers sometimes I get lucky on crits and able to kill all three if and only if they are within range for Poisen Gas *AoE stun* and don't have break free.
    You're kidding right? You want a heal nerf while stating that you can kill 3 healers working together?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxen View Post
    I had expose weakness up, stealth surprise jagged strike, Punture, impale, foulplay *4 second stun*, Anathema *50% healing reduction for 30 seconds*, Sleight of hand *drops a buff on your target*, slip away, jagged strike, impale, and final blow.
    Well there's your problem...

    (I noticed your edit and that you had used Puncture prior to Final Blow and I'm taking that into account.)

    Let's just pretend (because we know rogues tend to bottom out for energy shortly after their opener) that you're firing an ability every 2 seconds. Just follow me on this for a second.

    You open with Jagged Strike, Puncture, and Impale. You now have an 18 second Jagged Strike bleed ticking, an 18 second Puncture Bleed ticking, and a 24 second Impale bleed ticking. It has taken you 6 seconds to place all of these bleeds on your target. Follow up with Foul Play, Anathema, and Sleight of Hand, which takes another 6 seconds in our hypothetical situation, so now your Jagged Strike has 6 seconds left, your Puncture has 8 seconds left, and you Impale has 18 seconds left. Slip Away right after, reopen with Jagged Strike on a target that still has a Jagged Strike bleed active, Puncture on a target that still has a Puncture Bleed active, and Final Blow.

    Do you see where this is going?

    Now if you compress it so that things are actually matching the proper rate at which you can use your abilities and the remaining duration on Jagged Strike and Puncture is longer than a few seconds when you re-apply them. You didn't mention which buff was stripped by Sleight of Hand. My guess is that you don't know which is fine, but there's a reason most rogues look at Sleight of Hand as a wasted point investment (and a wasted GCD in most cases.)

    So with that in mind, a couple of things...

    If you had dropped four points out of INF and put them into SIN for Serpent's Strike you would have loaded a fair bit of additional damage onto your target.

    If, instead of wasting a GCD on using Sleight of Hand on the mage while they were stunned you had swing around behind them and poked them with a Backstab, you would have unloaded even more damage onto them.

    And finally, instead of wasting GCDs and time re-applying bleeds that still had enough time left on them for a full CP cycle you had instead re-opened with Assassinate (instead of Jagged Strike) and pretty much anything other than Puncture and followed it with a Final Blow, instead of laughing at you that mage would probably have been pooping themselves, or at the very least motivated to do more than stand there and mock you.

    Would you have been able to kill them if they had actually tried? Hard to say. Depends a lot on their build and what tools they had at their disposal. If they were a chlorolock, my first guess would be no. But you would have done a lot better for yourself and left yourself subject to slightly less ridicule if you had done things right yourself.

    Never, never, never re-open with Jagged Strike on a target that already has the Jagged Strike bleed active. That's what you've got Assassinate for. Don't waste GCDs on fluff abilities that you can't control (Sleight of Hand). You've got Backstab...use it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxen View Post
    78% of the time it one shots the healers unless, like you say they have too many instant heals, soup up HoTs, or bubble/shields.
    This is pretty much the perfect example of how delusional players balance complaints are. By your own admission, you win 78% of the time doing this. You're also doing this against someone who is speced for healing and hit points. But in your mind, it's unbalanced because you don't win 100% of the time? Because you are of course a better player, even though there are serious flaws in your approach and rotation......

    /boggle.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Sorovos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kok View Post
    So what you say is that you think that it is OK for someone to SOLO kill a healer that is healing himself with 5 other healers healing him as well?
    Here my suggestion
    Re-Roll a raid boss or quit
    Rofl. that's what i was thinking..

    I got to tell ya, In every game, Rogues are the most delusional players there are.

    Yes.. the class with stealth, who can pick and choose his fights, and vanish from them, Should be able to kill a Cleric who's healing himself while being cross healed by others EVEN without a good heal debuff.

    That is the Logic some of these rogues have..
    Xsorus - Rank 8 Mage/Server Seastone/Guardian/Guild - Desolate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultrazen View Post
    This is pretty much the perfect example of how delusional players balance complaints are. By your own admission, you win 78% of the time doing this. You're also doing this against someone who is speced for healing and hit points. But in your mind, it's unbalanced because you don't win 100% of the time? Because you are of course a better player, even though there are serious flaws in your approach and rotation......

    /boggle.
    Yet another qq about not being able to kill a r8 healer from a r8 rogue. So the suggestion is make healers a free kill... ill tell you something if healers are so OP they kill ppl while just standing there and laughing at you go and roll a fcking cleric.

  13. #13
    Champion j3w3l's Avatar
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    my first qustion to the healer is mage or cleric.. the difference is huge

    you gave them a couple gcd's open opening before foul play where the person would have time to use 1 maybe 2 skills. were you detaunted, were defence cooldowns used ie healers covenant, orbs (or mage equivalent)

    rogues atm are underpowered and hopefully the incoming buff will aleviate that without unbalancing

    lastly i do think heals are over the top in this game, but so is damage.. both are scaled too high in comparison with health pools and mitigation (talking R8vr8
    So long rift, may your potential someday be realised

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    Quote Originally Posted by j3w3l View Post
    my first qustion to the healer is mage or cleric.. the difference is huge

    you gave them a couple gcd's open opening before foul play where the person would have time to use 1 maybe 2 skills. were you detaunted, were defence cooldowns used ie healers covenant, orbs (or mage equivalent)

    rogues atm are underpowered and hopefully the incoming buff will aleviate that without unbalancing

    lastly i do think heals are over the top in this game, but so is damage.. both are scaled too high in comparison with health pools and mitigation (talking R8vr8
    Amen!!!!

    The one true problem, its not the healing that is over the top it is the healing AND the damage. We can heal our self in 2-3 gcd to full because you can burst ppl down in 2-3 gcd. If you want to tone down healing you must tone down damage else it makes no sense to even try and heal in a WF.

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    Banned Toxen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licentia View Post
    Well there's your problem...

    (I noticed your edit and that you had used Puncture prior to Final Blow and I'm taking that into account.)

    Let's just pretend (because we know rogues tend to bottom out for energy shortly after their opener) that you're firing an ability every 2 seconds. Just follow me on this for a second.

    You open with Jagged Strike, Puncture, and Impale. You now have an 18 second Jagged Strike bleed ticking, an 18 second Puncture Bleed ticking, and a 24 second Impale bleed ticking. It has taken you 6 seconds to place all of these bleeds on your target. Follow up with Foul Play, Anathema, and Sleight of Hand, which takes another 6 seconds in our hypothetical situation, so now your Jagged Strike has 6 seconds left, your Puncture has 8 seconds left, and you Impale has 18 seconds left. Slip Away right after, reopen with Jagged Strike on a target that still has a Jagged Strike bleed active, Puncture on a target that still has a Puncture Bleed active, and Final Blow.

    Do you see where this is going?

    Now if you compress it so that things are actually matching the proper rate at which you can use your abilities and the remaining duration on Jagged Strike and Puncture is longer than a few seconds when you re-apply them. You didn't mention which buff was stripped by Sleight of Hand. My guess is that you don't know which is fine, but there's a reason most rogues look at Sleight of Hand as a wasted point investment (and a wasted GCD in most cases.)

    So with that in mind, a couple of things...

    If you had dropped four points out of INF and put them into SIN for Serpent's Strike you would have loaded a fair bit of additional damage onto your target.

    If, instead of wasting a GCD on using Sleight of Hand on the mage while they were stunned you had swing around behind them and poked them with a Backstab, you would have unloaded even more damage onto them.

    And finally, instead of wasting GCDs and time re-applying bleeds that still had enough time left on them for a full CP cycle you had instead re-opened with Assassinate (instead of Jagged Strike) and pretty much anything other than Puncture and followed it with a Final Blow, instead of laughing at you that mage would probably have been pooping themselves, or at the very least motivated to do more than stand there and mock you.

    Would you have been able to kill them if they had actually tried? Hard to say. Depends a lot on their build and what tools they had at their disposal. If they were a chlorolock, my first guess would be no. But you would have done a lot better for yourself and left yourself subject to slightly less ridicule if you had done things right yourself.

    Never, never, never re-open with Jagged Strike on a target that already has the Jagged Strike bleed active. That's what you've got Assassinate for. Don't waste GCDs on fluff abilities that you can't control (Sleight of Hand). You've got Backstab...use it.
    Yes but you entirely missed the point, this mage didn't move.

    Your argument that I should had used backstab instead is not a good one this also includes Annihilate.

    Yes the buff remover is random but again you are also relying on the fact that you want to use the 51 point ability to burst. If a healer can health threw the burst what then? Also what if the ability didn't crit?

    That 51 point ability is 8 second Cooldown.

    Now the reason I stack Bleeds is because a player that stands still in combat is in fact a bad player in PvP or Warfronts.

    I have encountered alot of players that jump around during PvP to avoid backstab, a single back stab with a stun, is not going to make much difference if the healer knows what they are doing and don't forget there is "break free".

    So the reason I stack on Poison is because they run around and jump around, you cannot 100% of the time get behind the target and stay behind them, if you are in those situations then you have pretty bad PvP players you are killing.

    I do not have such luxury.

    Also another argument is Warriors with defense Cooldowns, stacking bleeds kills them alot of the time. Most Warriors I have met pop so many defense Cooldowns to reduce damage, a burst means nothing, but if you stack a bunch of small DoTs, the damage reduction doesn't reduce our DoTs that much and you can keep a steady flow of damage to that warrior without losing most of the time.

    Ofcourse with Side steps active. Unless they are RB then no you cant.

    I truly understand what you mean about relying on the backstab and SS for burst but there are alot of players that have found a way to counter that and it sounds to me, you have not encounter those kinds of players.

    This is why I made this thread because even with a good healer this spec is suppose to kill a healer or keep them at 30% or below. The mage I fought didn't get below 60% in a 1 versus 1 and to me that's a problem especially when you consider the mechanics of Warfronts and the Utility function.

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