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Thread: Constructive Feedback on Achieving Better PvP Balance

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    Plane Touched Wutangrza's Avatar
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    Default Constructive Feedback on Achieving Better PvP Balance

    After reading through this subforum, I think it's become pretty clear that a thread like this really needs to be made. This thread will serve as a place to list issues with PvP balance and provide feedback on how to improve things. Say what you want about Trion, but they do seem to be great at seeking feedback from the community and tuning their game appropriately.

    Please don't fill this thread with arguments, or anecdotal tales of how class X massacred your entire team even though you are all R8 and he was R1, etc. Just calmly provide a list of what you find to be issues with PvP balance, and, if you want, possible suggestions for improvement.

    I'll start.

    1) Take a look at warrior's EHP right now. It's one thing to be able to push people over, and I'm not saying warrior's shouldn't have survivability, but geared warriors are able to "go deep" and 1v10 a team for like 15 seconds, kill one player, then hop back to their healers before the opposing team can kill them. It's really frustrating for the team getting "hero-classed".
    2) Warrior's action econ could also use some evaluation, the GCD is a good idea, having 5 moves off of it subverts the entire point of having a GCD and is the root cause for a lot of the QQ (warrior charged into me and killed me in <2 GCD's). There's nothing you can do when you're dead inside of a few GCD's because you made the mistake of picking a class where the GCD is actually meaningful.
    3) Fix the double tick exploit on Devouring Shadows (give DS a cooldown equal to its channel time)
    4) Buff rogues broadly but nerf the hell out of that build that lets them run at +1000000% run speed while being unsnarable/immune to magic/teleporting all over the place.
    5) Examine Warden healing in PvP, it's one thing to be a mobile healer, but they literally never have to stop to cast; I think they're a bit too effective.
    6) Chlorolock could probably use a looking at. They also seem a bit too effective.
    7) Improve the state of affairs for melee clerics in PvP. Right now they're incredibly lackluster (aside from say the M*A*S*H spec, but that's primarily a healer spec, not primarily a melee spec, and the only reason it's so good is because of #4, warden healing is incredibly effective).
    8) Give Cabalist a buff similar to "shadow form" from the shadow priest in WoW. The purpose of this buff would be to 1: increase cabalist damage a smidge, 2: increase their survivability a bit, 3: make it so they can't heal for 1/3 of their damage. If cabalists are going to top damage meters (which is fine, the damage is spread across the entire team and isn't really that effective at "killing" when compared to warriors/mages) then they shouldn't also be able to come in #2 or #3 on healing.

    The suggestions I offer are based solely off my experiences (almost R6 Cleric, R3 warrior), and I fully expect different players will have different perspectives, and I'm looking forward to gaining a broader understanding of PvP in Rift, so please, post your suggestions!
    Last edited by Wutangrza; 09-19-2011 at 11:06 AM.

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    Rift Disciple Jorath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wutangrza View Post
    After reading through this subforum, I think it's become pretty clear that a thread like this really needs to be made. This thread will serve as a place to list issues with PvP balance and provide feedback on how to improve things. Say what you want about Trion, but they do seem to be great at seeking feedback from the community and tuning their game appropriately.

    Please don't fill this thread with arguments, or anecdotal tales of how class X massacred your entire team even though you are all R8 and he was R1, etc. Just calmly provide a list of what you find to be issues with PvP balance, and, if you want, possible suggestions for improvement.

    I'll start.

    1) Take a look at warrior's EHP right now. It's one thing to be able to push people over, and I'm not saying warrior's shouldn't have survivability, but geared warriors are able to "go deep" and 1v10 a team for like 15 seconds, kill one player, then hop back to their healers before the opposing team can kill them. It's really frustrating for the team getting "hero-classed".
    2) Warrior's action econ could also use some evaluation, the GCD is a good idea, having 5 moves off of it subverts the entire point of having a GCD and is the root cause for a lot of the QQ (warrior charged into me and killed me in <2 GCD's). There's nothing you can do when you're dead inside of a few GCD's because you made the mistake of picking a class where the GCD is actually meaningful.
    3) Fix the double tick exploit on Devouring Shadows (give DS a cooldown equal to its channel time)
    4) Buff rogues broadly but nerf the hell out of that build that lets them run at +1000000% run speed while being unsnarable/immune to magic/teleporting all over the place.
    5) Examine Warden healing in PvP, it's one thing to be a mobile healer, but they literally never have to stop to cast; I think they're a bit too effective.
    6) Chlorolock could probably use a looking at. They also seem a bit too effective.
    7) Improve the state of affairs for melee clerics in PvP. Right now they're incredibly lackluster (aside from say the M*A*S*H spec, but that's primarily a healer spec, not primarily a melee spec, and the only reason it's so good is because of #4, warden healing is incredibly effective).
    8) Give Cabalist a buff similar to "shadow form" from the shadow priest in WoW. The purpose of this buff would be to 1: increase cabalist damage a smidge, 2: increase their survivability a bit, 3: make it so they can't heal for 1/3 of their damage. If cabalists are going to top damage meters (which is fine, the damage is spread across the entire team and isn't really that effective at "killing" when compared to warriors/mages) then they shouldn't also be able to come in #2 or #3 on healing.

    The suggestions I offer are based solely off my experiences (almost R6 Cleric, R3 warrior), and I fully expect different players will have different perspectives, and I'm looking forward to gaining a broader understanding of PvP in Rift, so please, post your suggestions!
    Hey a cleric posting in the forms.. I didn't even have to read R6 cleric, I knew just looking at the nerf/buff list which reads the same for every other class (Nerf them, buff me!!!!). Welcome to the party pal
    Last edited by Jorath; 09-19-2011 at 11:17 AM.

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    Rift Chaser Drude's Avatar
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    1) Take a look at warrior's EHP right now. It's one thing to be able to push people over, and I'm not saying warrior's shouldn't have survivability, but geared warriors are able to "go deep" and 1v10 a team for like 15 seconds, kill one player, then hop back to their healers before the opposing team can kill them. It's really frustrating for the team getting "hero-classed".

    This one is pretty easy. Hybrid tank-DPS build with good healers. I do it all of the time. There is nothing wrong with this. Clerics can do the same thing solo. So if a warrior is able to kill 1 out of 10 without dying, that is OP? Gotta kind of disagree with you on this one. The other points seem valid.

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    Plane Touched Wutangrza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorath View Post
    Hey a cleric posting in the forms.. I didn't even have to read R6 cleric, I knew just looking at the nerf/buff list which reads the same for every other class (Nerf them, buff me!!!!). Welcome to the party pal
    Hmmm, I don't really think that was the theme of my post at all. I called for a flat out nerf to warden healing, what I would consider an "improvement" to cabalist as opposed to a nerf/buff, significant buffs to rogues, and otherwise just fixes to glaringly broken things (DS double tick for example).

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    Plane Touched Wutangrza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drude View Post
    1) Take a look at warrior's EHP right now. It's one thing to be able to push people over, and I'm not saying warrior's shouldn't have survivability, but geared warriors are able to "go deep" and 1v10 a team for like 15 seconds, kill one player, then hop back to their healers before the opposing team can kill them. It's really frustrating for the team getting "hero-classed".

    This one is pretty easy. Hybrid tank-DPS build with good healers. I do it all of the time. There is nothing wrong with this. Clerics can do the same thing solo. So if a warrior is able to kill 1 out of 10 without dying, that is OP? Gotta kind of disagree with you on this one. The other points seem valid.
    Fair enough, and I don't have that much of a problem with the warrior who needs to remained tethered to his good healers, in fact, I think that's a great mechanic and one of the quintessential examples of good group PvP.

    What I'm saying is an issue is when a warrior "goes deep" leaves his healers and literally goes in hero style vs 5+ players and manages to kill one and escape all the while not getting any heals (and therefore not giving the players he's stomping a viable target).

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    Rift Disciple Jorath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wutangrza View Post
    Hmmm, I don't really think that was the theme of my post at all. I called for a flat out nerf to warden healing, what I would consider an "improvement" to cabalist as opposed to a nerf/buff, significant buffs to rogues, and otherwise just fixes to glaringly broken things (DS double tick for example).
    Everyone knows warden heals needs nerf, You can only really stop them with Blight from Chloro and thats just till they start slamming the hots on again. I would like to see more healing debuff hot removal because its hard to find that high a Chloro in a WF, most stop at low 30s.

    DS isn't broke, its a 25% damage boost, and if you fixed that then they could just use FS and Interlize charge. DS normally ticks at 2 sec, with stopcasting you can slam it at 1.5 sec. And the best fix is... umm.. to move. As another person put it there is a really powerful ability called the W key which allows you to fast travel long distances out of AOE range.

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    The only real problem right now, is that the class with the highest mitigation, also has the most DPS. No matter what class I'm playing (I play all 4 in PvP) it's always the same thing. Every other fight I have against a class other than warriors, takes 20-30 seconds, involves tactics and using your skills at the right time. Unless I'm on my warrior, fights with warriors take about 3 GCDs, usually all of which I'm incapacitated.

    1. Earthburst .....seriously...fix this damn skill already.

    2. Riftwalk should be considered a CC and have DR rules applied too it.

    3. Battlefield Intimidation needs a much longer cooldown than it has. Given warriors DPS output, it's pretty much a 100% kill when everyone else around is unable to do anything. I know every single person on this forum has been involved in the charge in/AOE fear/kill target/run back out. An 8 second AOE fear is much too powerful given how short the cooldown is, and how low it is in the tree.

    At this point in the game, even with Trion not being afraid to swing the nerf bat around, I'm not sure it can be fixed. Giving the class with the best mitigation in the game, the highest DPS is just a fundamental flaw in the basic game design.

    The thing in general about CC in this game, is that warriors are really the only class that can take advantage of it. An 8 second fear is enough time for a warrior to kill someone. It's pretty tough for any other class/spec to do this, and it's these kinds of combos that are OP. Given how much time it takes to kill a warrior, they will be immune to CC well before you can kill them, and at that point there is no way to keep them off of you. Classes that rely on staying at range in this game in general are hosed.

    Warriors should be hard to kill if they spec for it. Warriors should be able to do a lot of damage if they spec for it. What they should not be able to do is both of those things at once.

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    Rift Disciple Jorath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultrazen View Post
    The only real problem right now, is that the class with the highest mitigation, also has the most DPS. No matter what class I'm playing (I play all 4 in PvP) it's always the same thing. Every other fight I have against a class other than warriors, takes 20-30 seconds, involves tactics and using your skills at the right time. Unless I'm on my warrior, fights with warriors take about 3 GCDs, usually all of which I'm incapacitated.

    1. Earthburst .....seriously...fix this damn skill already.

    2. Riftwalk should be considered a CC and have DR rules applied too it.

    3. Battlefield Intimidation needs a much longer cooldown than it has. Given warriors DPS output, it's pretty much a 100% kill when everyone else around is unable to do anything. I know every single person on this forum has been involved in the charge in/AOE fear/kill target/run back out. An 8 second AOE fear is much too powerful given how short the cooldown is, and how low it is in the tree.

    At this point in the game, even with Trion not being afraid to swing the nerf bat around, I'm not sure it can be fixed. Giving the class with the best mitigation in the game, the highest DPS is just a fundamental flaw in the basic game design.

    The thing in general about CC in this game, is that warriors are really the only class that can take advantage of it. An 8 second fear is enough time for a warrior to kill someone. It's pretty tough for any other class/spec to do this, and it's these kinds of combos that are OP. Given how much time it takes to kill a warrior, they will be immune to CC well before you can kill them, and at that point there is no way to keep them off of you. Classes that rely on staying at range in this game in general are hosed.

    Warriors should be hard to kill if they spec for it. Warriors should be able to do a lot of damage if they spec for it. What they should not be able to do is both of those things at once.
    They are fixing this with the ICD and nerf to Bloodthirsty. The burst should be fixed in 1.5 also. So the right nerf bat is coming

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    Plane Touched Wutangrza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorath View Post
    DS isn't broke, its a 25% damage boost, and if you fixed that then they could just use FS and Interlize charge. DS normally ticks at 2 sec, with stopcasting you can slam it at 1.5 sec. And the best fix is... umm.. to move. As another person put it there is a really powerful ability called the W key which allows you to fast travel long distances out of AOE range.
    Yea, kind of tough to do that on say the bridge of Scion or any of the other many natural chokes that occur in warfronts. Watch Medusa's video where he's putting out 2400+ DS tick crits, which means a double tick = 4800 damage instantly.

    Doing 4800 damage instantly to a single target would be broken; doing it to an entire area is absurdly overpowered, even Medusa will admit it himself. (Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH8TwQUzCeo)

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    Rift Disciple Jorath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wutangrza View Post
    Yea, kind of tough to do that on say the bridge of Scion or any of the other many natural chokes that occur in warfronts. Watch Medusa's video where he's putting out 2400+ DS tick crits, which means a double tick = 4800 damage instantly.

    Doing 4800 damage instantly to a single target would be broken; doing it to an entire area is absurdly overpowered, even Medusa will admit it himself. (Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH8TwQUzCeo)
    Your right, NEW POST! NERF CHOKEPOINTS! Choke points are overpowered and need to be nerfed immediately. Flat open terrian only! Everyone to the endless plains to do battle!
    Last edited by Jorath; 09-19-2011 at 11:40 AM.

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    Plane Touched Wutangrza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultrazen View Post

    Warriors should be hard to kill if they spec for it. Warriors should be able to do a lot of damage if they spec for it. What they should not be able to do is both of those things at once.
    I really don't want to see this thread degrade into a rant on warriors (because while I do think they need retuned, so do lots of other things), but you make a great point. I think being objective, warriors definitely have the highest survivability, they have the highest DPS (or at least if not highest, very close, especially single target which equates to killing power), they have some of the most effective CC (long aoe fear on a short CD), and, correct me if I'm wrong, but they have some of the best anti-CC too. With good gear and planar blade riftwalk might as well have 100% uptime; combine this with an in combat charge that breaks snares and it's just so frustrating as a caster class.

    Typically the archetype battle for caster vs warrior = the warrior tries to stay in the face of the caster while the caster seeks to snare and gain separation from the warrior, with both sides having toolkits adequate to accomplish this, but currently getting separation from a warrior is a pipe dream thanks to the incredible amount of CC/Anti-CC they bring with riftwalk/charge in combat/aoe fear on short CD.
    Last edited by Wutangrza; 09-19-2011 at 11:40 AM.

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    I been back playing my cleric in warfronts this weekend. (Thanks for the PS bonus, Trion ) I really don't think wardens need any nerfs. It's the only effective heals spec for clerics in PvP. And as far as instant cast AoE heals, chloro is the same. Don't know about bards but I suspect they have it too. You want heals in WF's it is going to be warden/sent most likely.

    On the otherhand, melee clerics shouldn't be encouraged. I am way tired of my 40's warrior and 30's rogue going into warfronts loaded with dps clerics over and over who both won't heal and do crap for dps. I guess they spec it for survival cause they sure don't seem to contribute to the team IME.
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    Rift Disciple Jorath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheven View Post
    I been back playing my cleric in warfronts this weekend. (Thanks for the PS bonus, Trion ) I really don't think wardens need any nerfs. It's the only effective heals spec for clerics in PvP. And as far as instant cast AoE heals, chloro is the same. Don't know about bards but I suspect they have it too. You want heals in WF's it is going to be warden/sent most likely.

    On the otherhand, melee clerics shouldn't be encouraged. I am way tired of my 40's warrior and 30's rogue going into warfronts loaded with dps clerics over and over who both won't heal and do crap for dps. I guess they spec it for survival cause they sure don't seem to contribute to the team IME.
    As much as I hate to admit it, I play Chlorlock, Chlorlock healing AND Warden healing need nerfed. I think the damage should be reduced and healing increased on Lifegiving and Lifebound and then add a new veil called Lifepurging or something which boost damage back to at least the original amount, makes Ruin Instant cast instant recast and nerfs healing by about 25-50%

    But clerics should not be allowed to DPS in melee. its bad enough they can 4 que in PvE instances, let them not have their cake and eat it 2 with PvP also.
    Last edited by Jorath; 09-19-2011 at 12:01 PM.

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    The simple fact is, equally geared and skilled, a warrior wins over every caster.
    That's unbalance.
    And cabalists need a survivability buff yes.

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    PvP is already imbalanced based on people's prestige level P-4 have no chance of surviving from a player to who is geared and P8. As a cabalist, I can one or two shot players which to me indicates they are a low prestige and not geared. In the WF, I see rookie players wearing green/blues which to me is not fair for them to be in a ring with well geared players. Realistically they have no chance.

    No matter what yotweakek or what yoNerfrf, the imbalances will still continue because of their Prestige level.

    1. I still feel we should break off P1-4 from P5-8
    2. Is it possible to have all serQues que for the WF oppose to the current break down currently? This will perhaps speed up the que wait times.
    Last edited by Oblivion333; 09-19-2011 at 12:09 PM.

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