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Thread: Warrior or Cleric

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Warrior or Cleric

    So I've always liked the Warrior archetype. It holds a special place in my heart, and I've played one and enjoyed it in almost every game I've played.

    Coming to this game, and being a bit of a fan of pvp, I figured I'd do research and figure out what I'd like to play. I'd like it if a veteran might answer some questions I have, as I'm conflicted between playing a melee DPS cleric (Shaman/Justicar/Inquisitor) or a DPS warrior (Champion and whatever other souls seem relevant).

    Warrior questions:
    -Self heals? Every class seems to have some form of self healing, and the only other class I've seen without it seems to be getting it with the next patch. Do warriors have a way to heal themselves that isn't on a crazy long cooldown?
    -OP? I hate to jump on the FoTM bandwagon. More often than not, if a class I choose winds up being OP, I end up getting adjusted to the flow of their playstyle and when they're nerfed it winds up putting me off. Feeling weaker because of number tweaks is a big put off. How much of it is hype and people QQing and how much is legitimate imbalance that the developers will actually look into balancing?

    Cleric questions:
    -Damage? I've seen some pvp videos and Shamicars seem to be decent, but they seem to be really RNG reliant. Will a Shaman be able to take down people reliably in solo and group combat?
    -Survivability: This seems to be the main staying point of the melee cleric, but I'm curious if its going to stay that way? Seems like this is a huge problem people have when facing clerics due to the Justicar's ability to shrug off and recover from quite a bit of sustained damage. See my second Warrior question.

    So, I guess the big question is: which of the two is the better investment for a level 50 character that I plan to work my way to rank 8 with?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Cleric

    Patch after patch remains the strongest soul in the game. It offers several playstyles rather than just 2. After 1.5 warriors will be at the bottom of the totem pole in Rift... its back to 1.1 for us.
    Last edited by solarbear; 09-17-2011 at 06:16 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by solarbear View Post
    Cleric

    Patch after patch remains the strongest soul in the game. It offers several playstyles rather than just 2. After 1.5 warriors will be at the bottom of the totem pole in Rift... its back to 1.1 for us.
    Why is that? What are they changing about Warrior that is so vital?

    Also: Any Clerics around that can back up/refute his claims?

    I don't want a "omg, dats OP and I'm UP, nerf him and buff me" thread, but I would like some sort of reasonable (I ask you to move mountains) debate.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenKing View Post
    Why is that? What are they changing about Warrior that is so vital?

    Also: Any Clerics around that can back up/refute his claims?

    I don't want a "omg, dats OP and I'm UP, nerf him and buff me" thread, but I would like some sort of reasonable (I ask you to move mountains) debate.
    because there's been a witch hunt against warriors (some of it very justified...like parachamp...some of it not).

    what's happened is that there were builds that needed tweaking because they were definitely too strong. but trion adjusted things too severely and overnerfed aspects of the builds that are inherent to the viability of the soul, as well as destroying synergies between souls.

    for example. in 1.3 there was the parachamp. a build that had very good mobility, two charges, and speed boost, a very, very, very strong ability in paired strike (which would crit high valor targets for 1000-1600),, and guarantee next three follow ups crit. that's where path of the hurricane, a follow-up, came into play. it had a freakishly large aoe cone,, and would would pretty much tag the entire half of the map with healing debuff, as well as hitting like a truck.

    so the core issues with the build was:

    1) a very strong burst, and aoe burst build that allowed the toys of Champion that are game-breaking, like Battlefield Intimidation (fear bomb) and Lingering Wounds (heal debuff).
    2) Paired Strike hitting way too hard. It allowed a literal one-global of anything under 500-600 Valor and wasn't plate. It seriously would shred low valor targets for 2k+ if they were cloth/leather.
    3) The ranged capabilities. I could spam 1 and apply LW on the entire team from range, while all critting for 1kish, and then charge in, spam one, apply Paired Strike's 3-crit proc, and still blow up everything behind my target in melee range because Path of the Hurricane's cone.

    So obviously, the fixes that would make sense was to:

    1) possibly break synergy between paragon DW builds and champion's fear bomb and LW
    2) lower the damage modifier on paired strike
    3) lower the PvP coefficient on path of the hurricane or reduce it's ranged capabilites a bit.

    instead they:

    put sweeping nerfs on all the coefficients of previously said abilities.
    put nerfs on coefficients on abilities that had nothing to do with parachamps
    put sweeping % nerfs as high as 20-30% on some abilities.

    this resulted in pretty much breaking any viable physical DPS builds. even one's that were of the 2H variant, who's burst potential and output were not close to parachamp's by any means. physical damage specs in PvP are done. they're gutted. there is no build (and i've tried many since I hit R8) that can provide any significant amount of single target pressure on a target by means of physical DPS.

    i'll admit the nerfs in 1.4 against riftblade builds have been moderate to the travesty that was the phys dps nerfs. but pretty much they removed the gimmick synergy that allowed the build to do respectable burst (ragestorm and sweeping strikes), and adding an internal shared GCD between non-GCD reactives. it does not hurt 2H builds as badly because we only really have 1 reactive that is constantly up (Frenzied Strike). It really gimps the lameboi SnB build because there are 2-4 reactives constantly popping up to be saved up for a burst.

    the problem is, they didn't really tweak the issues that most people have a problem with:

    1) being able to cleanse all debuffs off you
    2) being able to riftwalk everytime you crit, which pretty much means you have obscene mobility within 20m and bypass all CC's except fear/sheep
    3) being able to prime earth burst with purge (35m) which makes warriors still very difficult to kite.

    so there will still be complaining about warrior's, especially with riftblade bypassing all armor and hitting like a truck...so there will most likely be another sweeping set of nerfs across the board like % damage reduction on abilities that will gut the riftblade soul for PvP.

    So at that point, all the DPS souls of warrior will be unplayable.

    We then move to subdue...which is incredibly broken. the only reason why it's not complained about is because it's not fotm quite yet, just like how the Ragestorm build was well known before 1.4, but wasn't fully utilitized because everyone was using parachamp.

    and then subdue will get sweeping nerfed.

    and then there'll be nothing for warriors to play.

    kruunch counted, that there were 19 straight nerfs that affected PvP negatively in some way. i haven't checked myself, but it's kruunch, so i'll take his word for it.
    Last edited by Puzzlebox; 09-17-2011 at 07:39 PM.
    r40 puzzlybox <rise of mayhem> whoo whoo
    r40 pizzabox wheeeeeeeee

    puzzlebox + apoth = <3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    because there's been a witch hunt against warriors (some of it very justified...like parachamp...some of it not).

    what's happened is that there were builds that needed tweaking because they were definitely too strong. but trion adjusted things too severely and overnerfed aspects of the builds that are inherent to the viability of the soul, as well as destroying synergies between souls.

    for example. in 1.3 there was the parachamp. a build that had very good mobility, two charges, and speed boost, a very, very, very strong ability in paired strike (which would crit high valor targets for 1000-1600),, and guarantee next three follow ups crit. that's where path of the hurricane, a follow-up, came into play. it had a freakishly large aoe cone,, and would would pretty much tag the entire half of the map with healing debuff, as well as hitting like a truck.

    so the core issues with the build was:

    1) a very strong burst, and aoe burst build that allowed the toys of Champion that are game-breaking, like Battlefield Intimidation (fear bomb) and Lingering Wounds (heal debuff).
    2) Paired Strike hitting way too hard. It allowed a literal one-global of anything under 500-600 Valor and wasn't plate. It seriously would shred low valor targets for 2k+ if they were cloth/leather.
    3) The ranged capabilities. I could spam 1 and apply LW on the entire team from range, while all critting for 1kish, and then charge in, spam one, apply Paired Strike's 3-crit proc, and still blow up everything behind my target in melee range because Path of the Hurricane's cone.

    So obviously, the fixes that would make sense was to:

    1) possibly break synergy between paragon DW builds and champion's fear bomb and LW
    2) lower the damage modifier on paired strike
    3) lower the PvP coefficient on path of the hurricane or reduce it's ranged capabilites a bit.

    instead they:

    put sweeping nerfs on all the coefficients of previously said abilities.
    put nerfs on coefficients on abilities that had nothing to do with parachamps
    put sweeping % nerfs as high as 20-30% on some abilities.

    this resulted in pretty much breaking any viable physical DPS builds. even one's that were of the 2H variant, who's burst potential and output were not close to parachamp's by any means. physical damage specs in PvP are done. they're gutted. there is no build (and i've tried many since I hit R8) that can provide any significant amount of single target pressure on a target by means of physical DPS.

    i'll admit the nerfs in 1.4 against riftblade builds have been moderate to the travesty that was the phys dps nerfs. but pretty much they removed the gimmick synergy that allowed the build to do respectable burst (ragestorm and sweeping strikes), and adding an internal shared GCD between non-GCD reactives. it does not hurt 2H builds as badly because we only really have 1 reactive that is constantly up (Frenzied Strike). It really gimps the lameboi SnB build because there are 2-4 reactives constantly popping up to be saved up for a burst.

    the problem is, they didn't really tweak the issues that most people have a problem with:

    1) being able to cleanse all debuffs off you
    2) being able to riftwalk everytime you crit, which pretty much means you have obscene mobility within 20m and bypass all CC's except fear/sheep
    3) being able to prime earth burst with purge (35m) which makes warriors still very difficult to kite.

    so there will still be complaining about warrior's, especially with riftblade bypassing all armor and hitting like a truck...so there will most likely be another sweeping set of nerfs across the board like % damage reduction on abilities that will gut the riftblade soul for PvP.

    So at that point, all the DPS souls of warrior will be unplayable.

    We then move to subdue...which is incredibly broken. the only reason why it's not complained about is because it's not fotm quite yet, just like how the Ragestorm build was well known before 1.4, but wasn't fully utilitized because everyone was using parachamp.

    and then subdue will get sweeping nerfed.

    and then there'll be nothing for warriors to play.

    kruunch counted, that there were 19 straight nerfs that affected PvP negatively in some way. i haven't checked myself, but it's kruunch, so i'll take his word for it.
    Cleric it is then, thanks!

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser Healsabub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenKing View Post
    So I've always liked the Warrior archetype. It holds a special place in my heart, and I've played one and enjoyed it in almost every game I've played.

    Coming to this game, and being a bit of a fan of pvp, I figured I'd do research and figure out what I'd like to play. I'd like it if a veteran might answer some questions I have, as I'm conflicted between playing a melee DPS cleric (Shaman/Justicar/Inquisitor) or a DPS warrior (Champion and whatever other souls seem relevant).

    Warrior questions:
    -Self heals? Every class seems to have some form of self healing, and the only other class I've seen without it seems to be getting it with the next patch. Do warriors have a way to heal themselves that isn't on a crazy long cooldown?
    -OP? I hate to jump on the FoTM bandwagon. More often than not, if a class I choose winds up being OP, I end up getting adjusted to the flow of their playstyle and when they're nerfed it winds up putting me off. Feeling weaker because of number tweaks is a big put off. How much of it is hype and people QQing and how much is legitimate imbalance that the developers will actually look into balancing?

    Cleric questions:
    -Damage? I've seen some pvp videos and Shamicars seem to be decent, but they seem to be really RNG reliant. Will a Shaman be able to take down people reliably in solo and group combat?
    -Survivability: This seems to be the main staying point of the melee cleric, but I'm curious if its going to stay that way? Seems like this is a huge problem people have when facing clerics due to the Justicar's ability to shrug off and recover from quite a bit of sustained damage. See my second Warrior question.

    So, I guess the big question is: which of the two is the better investment for a level 50 character that I plan to work my way to rank 8 with?

    Thanks

    Having played both, I would choose cleric for the survivability aspect alone.

    Warriors have no self heals with the exception of a Pally heal with a 10 min cd. I haven't played my warrior to 50 yet (47 atm), but my experience trying different builds has been frustrating. Unless you have a pocket healer, you're screwed. You can do some good damage, but so can a cleric. The best build seems to be riftblade..it allows you carry a shield and still do decent damage, but a lot of its popularity is based on the fact that you have ranged attacks, which sort of defeats the point of being a warrior.

    I'm sure there are some "professional warriors" out there that will say I'm just a baddie and all that jazz, but in my experience, you charge the enemy, fear them, then get the crap beat out of you. Warriors are good at mitigating physical damage, but have almost zero mitigation against magic (unless you go deep into void knight tree). A warrior getting constant heals is nearly unstoppable, but you'll find that most of the time, that doesn't happen.

    Just my .02

  7. #7
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Adding on to above post. If you're a more solo-player, play Cleric. They're very strong in various aspects.

    If you have alot of buddies and a dedicated Cleric or three, roll a Warrior.

    Despite all the nerfs, a Warrior will always be key because of Battlefield Intimidation, Lingering Wounds, and some decent (but not amazing) mitigation (they mitigate physical damage like a champ and have generally the highest HP). They're essential in creating a buffer between the point of contention and your backline where all your mages/clerics in. They're key in preventing your ranged group from getting collapsed on.

    But the current meta-game favors magical DPS that bypasses armor and nothing else (even Warriors bypass other Warrior's armor because everyone is Riftblade). This is one of the reasons why Rogues have been SOL lately, since their DPS PvP specs are all physical based, and their elemental DPS build have been lackluster compared to the other 3 classes.
    r40 puzzlybox <rise of mayhem> whoo whoo
    r40 pizzabox wheeeeeeeee

    puzzlebox + apoth = <3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

  8. #8
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    Cleric is boosted and the most OP in Rift.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    so there will still be complaining about warrior's, especially with riftblade bypassing all armor and hitting like a truck...
    sorry, just a slight correction here.
    RB hits more like your average delivery van than a truck. its still not something you want to get hit by, but by no means is it anywhere as significant a whack as any other class can deliver - even rogues!

    where the warriors truck like burst comes from is the OGCD attacks, which are found in champ, para, and pally souls. these are set for a significant nerf. once that burst potential is gone, the warriors damage will be average at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    sorry, just a slight correction here.
    RB hits more like your average delivery van than a truck. its still not something you want to get hit by, but by no means is it anywhere as significant a whack as any other class can deliver - even rogues!

    where the warriors truck like burst comes from is the OGCD attacks, which are found in champ, para, and pally souls. these are set for a significant nerf. once that burst potential is gone, the warriors damage will be average at best.
    You make it sound like a class being average in a game with 4 total classes is a bad thing.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    sorry, just a slight correction here.
    RB hits more like your average delivery van than a truck. its still not something you want to get hit by, but by no means is it anywhere as significant a whack as any other class can deliver - even rogues!

    where the warriors truck like burst comes from is the OGCD attacks, which are found in champ, para, and pally souls. these are set for a significant nerf. once that burst potential is gone, the warriors damage will be average at best.
    the SnB build will be heavily affected from what i imagine

    the 2H builds, not so much. i'm not sure where bloodthirst stands and whether it's worth wasting a GCD on if you can get a modified searing strike or rift strike, since BT is mitigated by armor. but 2H, you only see frenzied strike with regularity anyway, that and inescapable fury against rogues.

    i really don't think this set of nerfs hurt that badly. but this is my assumptions with no PTS experience to back it up
    r40 puzzlybox <rise of mayhem> whoo whoo
    r40 pizzabox wheeeeeeeee

    puzzlebox + apoth = <3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

  12. #12
    Ascendant Kronos v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stimuz View Post
    You make it sound like a class being average in a game with 4 total classes is a bad thing.
    when 2 of those other classes are already OP with the third about to be buffed up to the same level, yes, getting nerfed to average is a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    the SnB build will be heavily affected from what i imagine

    the 2H builds, not so much. i'm not sure where bloodthirst stands and whether it's worth wasting a GCD on if you can get a modified searing strike or rift strike, since BT is mitigated by armor. but 2H, you only see frenzied strike with regularity anyway, that and inescapable fury against rogues.

    i really don't think this set of nerfs hurt that badly. but this is my assumptions with no PTS experience to back it up
    sorry, yes, my point of view is from the SnB build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Or to put it more simply, it doesn't matter if you're topping the charts if you're killing the wrong people.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    when 2 of those other classes are already OP with the third about to be buffed up to the same level, yes, getting nerfed to average is a bad thing.



    sorry, yes, my point of view is from the SnB build.
    look on the brightside. they chisel nerfed one fotm build they intended to nerf without severely affecting the second fotm derived from the same tree.

    ...who would have thunk.

    if only they had that much finesse with parachamp.

    ....poor titan's strike. what did it do to deserve all the abuse.
    r40 puzzlybox <rise of mayhem> whoo whoo
    r40 pizzabox wheeeeeeeee

    puzzlebox + apoth = <3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

  14. #14
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    Warriors has big numberz?

  15. #15
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    Cleric .... No question about it. And ya I've play both
    <The Unnamed> GSB 5/5 ROS 4/4 GP 4/4 DH 4/4 HK 10/11
    Lace - Whitefall- R8 Warrior
    Mythril - Whitefall- R8 Cleric

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