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Thread: How do people feel about CC in it's current condition?

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    Default How do people feel about CC in it's current condition?

    Hello everyone!

    I'm a casual PvP'er, though I'm starting to PvP a lot more now that I don't have the time to raid. I'd say I'm pretty average at it. People have told me I'm above average, but not as good as other mages, so I take it as a complement, though I'd chuck it up to gear personally.

    Anyway, that's not was this thread is about. I'm here to discuss the current system in place for crowd control abilities, and how it affects classes and PvP.

    I only have two 50's so far, working on my cleric during burn out phases for PvP grinding, so I don't know exactly how Warriors or Clerics are when it comes to CC and DR.

    I personally feel that the way CC DR works currently in the game is a little off from what it should be. I remember during beta and for a few weeks after launch, crowd control used to be something people used to control a battleground and it was used frequently. From what I remember, people didn't like the DR on crowd control abilities, so Trion changed it, but I feel that Trion (once again) went overboard and nerfed CC into almost uselessness.

    I'll talk about the mage, since that's what my main is, and how it effects them in PvP. I'm not going to go over every single soul but I will be touching base on some of them, with some important abilities that prove why CC DR in the game is currently messed up, and need to be fixed.

    Let's start with an explanation on how DR works in Rift. There are two categories:

    -Movement: Snares, roots, and knock backs

    -Crowd Control: banish, disarm, silence, fear, confuse, mesmerize and stun.

    With these two categories, it will be easier to explain it. Basically, you can snare someone for 8 seconds, and then knock them back, then they're immune, or you can snare them for 8 seconds, and then snare them again for 4 seconds, now they're immune to everything in that category. Rooting and snaring (vise versa) one after another will share DR, so root or snare for 8 seconds, then root or snare again for 4 seconds, then immune.

    If you decided to Crowd Control (CC), these work much like snare and root, but on a different DR than them. So, you can do all of the abilities in the CC category, and then do it again for half the time, then they are immune.

    Now, if you decide to snare someone (movement), you can also stun (crowd control) them for the full duration (because they're on separate DRs).

    Make sense? OK.

    Now, let's start talking about the Stormcaller. The Stormcaller has a plethora of abilities used to control their opponents. I'll go ahead and list a few key abilities that they have.

    - Icicle: Movement (snare)
    - Icy Vortex: Movement (snare)
    - Arctic Blast: Movement (snare)
    - Flash Freeze: Movement (root)
    - Hailstorm: Movement (snare)
    - Eye of the Storm: Movement (snare)
    - Talent Shell Shock + Raging Storm: Movement (root)
    - Talent Shell Shock + Electrocute: Movement + Movement (Knock back + root)
    - Talent ability Wind Chill: Movement + Movement (knock back + snare)
    - Talent ability Static Barrier: Movement (knock back)

    I think I've covered most of them, so let's start talking about the problems. The Stormcaller has these abilities because they don't have the defense to stand up to a melee punching them in the face. They have to utilize their CCs in order to gain distance. However, the problems lies within only having two different categories, while most of their attacks are in the movement category.

    Wind Chill, for example, is a knock back and a snare, which are both in the movement category. That means once the skill is used, the enemy is now immune to that category for 30 seconds, leaving the mage completely out of CC abilities until the 30 seconds are up, and we all know how long PvP lasts in this game.

    Icy Vortex creates another problem for the Mage. Because I'm not 100% certain on the debuff times, we'll use 8 second and 4 seconds for the durations. Once someone hits you, they are slowed for 8 seconds, and once they hit you again, then they're slowed for 4 seconds, and then the next time, they're immune. Why is this a problem? Because once the enemy hits you twice, you've just used up both DRs for the Movement Category, and now they're immune for 30 seconds. Once again, you're out of CC's and it's game over.

    The last issue I want to talk about for the Stormcaller is Hailstorm. It's really nice for keeping packed players packed while you thunderstorm them down, but now you've made all of them immune to the Movement category since it effects enemies much like Icy Vortex does. This isn't such a huge problem for group PvP, except now your fellow team mates won't be able to slow them once the hailstorm is over, causing issues for melee in general.

    Conclusion: Roots and snares need to be on separate diminishing returns. Having one soul's CC completely dependent on one category is causing survivability issues for them.

    I propose four new categories to replace Movement.

    - Controlled Snares: Icicle, Arctic Blast, Hailstorm, Eye of the Storm, Wind Chill
    - Random Snares: Icy Vortex
    - Root: Raging Storm (talented), Electrocute (talented), Flash Freeze,
    - Controlled Knock Back: Electrocute (talented), Wind Chill
    - Random Knock Back: Static Barrier

    This way, Stormcallers are not penalized for using abilities like Electrocute and Wind Chill, where they double tap for the Movement DR currently, and making Icy Vortex slightly more useful.


    Of course we need talk about the Dominator. Currently, the dominator has some powerful crowd controls, and they're quite powerful, except the current DR system really detracts from the general idea of what a dominator is suppose to do. I'll go ahead and list some abilities it has.

    Transmogrify: crowd control (confuse)
    Thunder Blast: Movement (knock back)
    Storm Shackle: Movement + Movement (root + snare)
    Grasping Void: Movement (snare)
    Death's Edict: Crowd Control + Movement (Stun + Snare)
    Mass Exhaustion: Crowd Control (confuse)
    Mental Shock: Crowd Control (Stun)
    Disorient: Crowd Control + Crowd Control (Stun + confuse)
    Arresting Presence: Crowd Control (silence)

    Abilities that do not have a DR to my knowledge: Accelerated Decay, Void Shroud, incompetence, and transference.

    As you can see, the Dominator is well balanced when it comes to the two categories which is why it still has some usefulness when it comes to controlling your opponent. However, once again, there are some abilities that double tap a category leaving the other CC's from that category useless. Storm Shackle and Disorient are the abilities that are shown here. I've already talked about the underlying issues with double taping CC's, so I won't be explaining it again.

    I propose breaking down the Crowd Control category into three categories.

    - Stun, Mesmerize, and Banish
    - Silence and Disarm
    - Fear and Confuse

    Having 7 different CC's bunched up in one category is bad for the game. It makes a lot of PvP soul combinations less attractive because players don't want to pick up CC abilities since most will not be used, or using them will ultimately screw you over (the double tappers).

    The PvP in the game has diminished (pun intended) into who can do the most burst. Burst specs are nice, but that's all you see anymore, and that makes PvP in MMOs based more on gear than skill. When I first started playing Rift, I loved the idea of having 9 souls to chose from, and making a unique spec I could use to kill my enemies. However, ever single spec i have is either based on Survivability or Damage.

    We need to have a game where players can chose a certain level of survivability, damage, and/or crowd control in order to be competitive.

    TL;DR version:

    Separate the two CC Categories into eight.

    - Controlled snares
    - Random Snares
    - Roots
    - Controlled Knock Backs
    - Random Knock Backs
    - Stun, Mesmerize, and Banish
    - Silence and Disarm
    - Fear and Confuse

    Sarathor@Byriel Rank 7 Defiant Mage - retired
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  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Your making too much sense. We wanna mash our two buttons together and KILL MAGES!!

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    How people feel about the DR system in Rift depends largely on which side of the orgy of snares they were on before the changes.

    Before the DR changes, it was entirely common for me to get caught in a hail of Stormcaller AoE, pop Break Free to barely escape with my life, and then have another hail of AoE dropped on me with no way to get out of it. It was entirely common to get charge stunned, feared and then stunned with Titan's Strike by those crazy champions that were all the rage (pun partially intended) back in the day. Pyros with secondary stun effects on common abilities (while being immune to all forms of CC themselves).

    In short, it was a frustrating situation that heavily favored ranged builds (and mages in particular only because the common builds had so much 'passive' CC in addition to their damage effects).

    The new DR system isn't perfect, but I'd rather see it as it is than see it adjusted back on the wrong side of the balance scale. If the devs can work it so that they can adjust CC without making the process of locking down melee the overly simple task it used to be, I'd be willing to approach it with an open mind.

    At present, before any changes to the DR system were made, I'd like to see a lot of the remaining passive CC pulled from abilities. You want to stun someone? Make that choice explicitly and do it. Snare? Same thing. Root? Same thing. Make it so that DR immunity isn't triggered "accidentally" like it is right now so that it's more viable when you need to use it and it might solve a lot of problems. And do it so that the CC component is only absent in PvP so that folks in PvE don't have their playstyle suddenly changed because of the PvP side of things.

    That would be my personal preference...put it in the hands of the players in a way that rewards coordination and teamwork. Right now it punishes a lack of coordination, which is not the same thing as rewarding team play.

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    Banned Shadowprison's Avatar
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    It was better Pre 1.2. Only thing that needed to be changed was global DR fixing and the breakfree buff.

    The current system is terrible.

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    Rift Chaser Quasari Nova's Avatar
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    8 feels like too many categories to me.

    I'd be more for:
    Stuns/fears/Confuse - Basically anything that makes you lose control of your character, but you can still be damaged
    Mezzes/Transmog - Anything that makes you lose control of your character, but damage breaks
    Roots/snares - Anything that limits movement
    Push/pull - Changes your position
    Silence/cast time modification - Makes spell casters do less damage
    Disarm - Makes melee do less damage

    I dont feel that you should ever be immune, but at full resist you it should be minimalized to the point where it's almost an immune(Roots turn into a small snare for a second, silence makes your cast time extended by .1s, stun makes you miss .5s,etc). I never want to see immune pop up unless they popped a cd. There should never be a 100% wasted cast, just 95% wasted Finesse would be rewarded when you make use of that 5% usability

    EDIT: My list is almost like yours, but I seperate Silence and Disarm and I feel random effects should effect controlled effects. Silence and Disarm should be seperate as accidental silences or disarms would prove detrimental to someone that needs to do the other against the same target.
    Last edited by Quasari Nova; 09-12-2011 at 11:15 PM.

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    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    8 second fears and silences are way too long.

    Yes, I am a warrior and I say that.

    Oh and Mana Wrench needs a DR or be mitigated by Valor. I find it's draining just a bit too much. Can blow all the CD's you want and pop all the pots you can , that Dom is gonna take the mana right back.
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    If they are going to keep CC DR the way it is, a tleast make the DR based on an individual player. That way another player cannot render your spells useless. Effective CC would then take team work, or just because one class is using a type of CC it would not ruin potential for others.

    This would increase the application of CC yes, but it would also increase personal efficiency because you could rely on your CC indefinitely. It is a two sided coin and I don't see it being unfair. I would gladly take possibly getting a little more CC on me if my enemy is smart about timing. On top of CC have a global DR, there are so many counter breaks to CC. Even assassin is getting a new personal break. With all the breaks, and smart gameplay used to avoid other common ones (like when cast an ability/ground effects), I don't think CC would be out of hand considering yours could always be relied on.

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    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    If they are going to keep CC DR the way it is, a tleast make the DR based on an individual player. That way another player cannot render your spells useless. Effective CC would then take team work, or just because one class is using a type of CC it would not ruin potential for others.

    This would increase the application of CC yes, but it would also increase personal efficiency because you could rely on your CC indefinitely. It is a two sided coin and I don't see it being unfair. I would gladly take possibly getting a little more CC on me if my enemy is smart about timing. On top of CC have a global DR, there are so many counter breaks to CC. Even assassin is getting a new personal break. With all the breaks, and smart gameplay used to avoid other common ones (like when cast an ability/ground effects), I don't think CC would be out of hand considering yours could always be relied on.
    You can argue that overlapping DR timers require an obscene amount of coordination

    my only issue with current CC DR is that the game and the souls were mainly built around the old system, and some of the tree/talents look horribly archaic in hindsight.
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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    There's too much CC in the game.
    Why wouldn't people spam CC when:
    - They have 4 or 5 kinds
    - That come as a free bonus in their DPS trees
    - The cooldowns are short
    - It doesn't cost much mana/power/energy

    DR didn't change any of that. It just made it so everyone still spams their CC but half the time it doesn't work. A better solution would be an across-the-board CC nerf. But until that happens DR is better than nothing.

  10. #10
    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quasari Nova View Post
    8 feels like too many categories to me.

    I'd be more for:
    Stuns/fears/Confuse - Basically anything that makes you lose control of your character, but you can still be damaged
    Mezzes/Transmog - Anything that makes you lose control of your character, but damage breaks
    Roots/snares - Anything that limits movement
    Push/pull - Changes your position
    Silence/cast time modification - Makes spell casters do less damage
    Disarm - Makes melee do less damage

    I dont feel that you should ever be immune, but at full resist you it should be minimalized to the point where it's almost an immune(Roots turn into a small snare for a second, silence makes your cast time extended by .1s, stun makes you miss .5s,etc). I never want to see immune pop up unless they popped a cd. There should never be a 100% wasted cast, just 95% wasted Finesse would be rewarded when you make use of that 5% usability

    EDIT: My list is almost like yours, but I separate Silence and Disarm and I feel random effects should effect controlled effects. Silence and Disarm should be separate as accidental silences or disarms would prove detrimental to someone that needs to do the other against the same target.
    I like your list too, and I feel it would be equally something Trion should look at and think about.

    However, I would be against having root and snares sharing a DR, manly because those are the two main CCs of the Stormcaller, so it would still put them back in the same position as before.

    I'm not gunning for a Stormcaller buff, It's just the best example I can think of where snares and roots sharing DR would be bad.

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    General of Telara Sarathor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stay View Post
    There's too much CC in the game.
    Why wouldn't people spam CC when:
    - They have 4 or 5 kinds
    - That come as a free bonus in their DPS trees
    - The cooldowns are short
    - It doesn't cost much mana/power/energy

    DR didn't change any of that. It just made it so everyone still spams their CC but half the time it doesn't work. A better solution would be an across-the-board CC nerf. But until that happens DR is better than nothing.
    The issue is more than half the time you're going to see an immune, even during key times in a battle where you could've silenced that Healer, but instead 15 seconds ago you blew a stun and confuse on him, so now you can't. If you chose a spec that relied on burst damage, you might of had a chance at killing the healer with using only one CC.

    Having two categories for CC dumbs down the game, and forces players into burst specs if they want to kill anything. That removes a lot of skill from the game, and focuses on who has the most spell power / attack power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowprison View Post
    It was better Pre 1.2. Only thing that needed to be changed was global DR fixing and the breakfree buff.

    The current system is terrible.
    I disagree that Pre 1.2 was better (part of it being the lack of Global DR). Even with fixing the Global DR and introducing the Breakfree 5s Immunity (which even now is still iffy), there would have still been additional tweaks that would have needed to take place.

    Where would I have started Pre 1.2, if I were Trion?

    First, I would still go with what I believe to be the logical four groups ( http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...cc-groups.html )

    Control - stun, fear, mez, incap, squirrel. These actually remove your Control...duh.
    Ability - silence and disarm. These remove your ability to use Abilities - but they do not remove your Control...duh.
    Speed - snares and roots. These change the speed you can move at...duh.
    Location - knockbacks and pulls. These change your location...duh.

    Months later, I still feel those are the most logical groupings for CC. So that would have been my first move.

    Second, I would have made sure that all of the abilities in each group actually worked with the DR/Immune System.

    Third, I would have then made sure that Global DR worked for all of those abilities within their respective groups.

    Fourth, for all of the alternate break free abilities - I would have made sure that they worked for everything that they were supposed to 'break' a player free. This includes Break Free itself.

    Fifth, I would have implemented the 5s Immunity after the use of Break Free - not the alternates, but the one from the PvP Soul.

    Sixth, with four categories in place - DR/Immunities working as intended - the BF 5s working, etc, etc... I would then take a look at what tweaking needed to be done from that point.

    As it stands now... DR is still broken. Global DR is still broken. Alternate break free abilities are still broken. Break Free is still broken. Basically, things are still broken...

    Hell, I was just in a Steppes where a Guardian Premade that 3-2-1-Go!'d their way in were exploiting KB from a pair of Rogues and a Cleric...

    How do I feel about CC? Well, I feel the same way I do about so many things in the game... Trion could cut down (significantly) on the myriad of complaints about so many different things - if they were just to address the freaking bugs...
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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarathor View Post
    The issue is more than half the time you're going to see an immune, even during key times in a battle where you could've silenced that Healer, but instead 15 seconds ago you blew a stun and confuse on him, so now you can't. If you chose a spec that relied on burst damage, you might of had a chance at killing the healer with using only one CC.

    Having two categories for CC dumbs down the game, and forces players into burst specs if they want to kill anything. That removes a lot of skill from the game, and focuses on who has the most spell power / attack power.
    There's no burst spec vs. CC spec duality. Every DPS spec has burst *and* CC. That's why your target is immune, because a champion charged and fearbombed it and a warlock stunned it and a RB silence spammed it. Which cost none of them anything significant at all - that's why they do it so much.

    CC needs to be more costly. In talent points, in cooldown, or in power/mana. Maybe all 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarathor View Post
    The issue is more than half the time you're going to see an immune, even during key times in a battle where you could've silenced that Healer, but instead 15 seconds ago you blew a stun and confuse on him, so now you can't. If you chose a spec that relied on burst damage, you might of had a chance at killing the healer with using only one CC.

    Having two categories for CC dumbs down the game, and forces players into burst specs if they want to kill anything. That removes a lot of skill from the game, and focuses on who has the most spell power / attack power.
    I can't say I agree with you there. The devs have said time and again that PvP is not and will not be tuned around 1v1 yet the example you reference is your inability to kill a healer because you frontloaded the CC and couldn't get the job done because the DR system prevented you from locking them down.

    There's a fine line between CC as a strategic component of PvP and CC as a crutch. When game mechanics allow you to lock someone down and kill them, CC is a crutch. It's also infuriating when you're on the receiving end of it. When CC allows you to tip the scale, it's strategic. Right now we have CC as a strategic element that is being foiled in many cases by people spamming it indiscriminately and then getting pissed when they see Immune, or triggering CC immunity so the next guy who tries to use CC strategically gets the Immune.

  15. #15
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    No doubt, that would be a main thing to address... but it would be a major change - addressing the actual amount of CC in the game (there is what, two to three times as much as WoW for example?)...

    ...it would require redoing the majority of the Souls.

    Not sure it is something Trion is capable of fixing at this point. Course, they've revisited several Souls with redesigns... so perhaps if it were something they could admit, then they could fix it - or turn it over to a higher power, lol, and let a consultant fix it for them.
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