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Thread: The declining state of pvp, and what to do about it.

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default The declining state of pvp, and what to do about it.

    I'm not talking about 1 class being OP or any of that. I speak of the constant server hopping that seems to be commonplace, and how a strong battlegroup with good queue times for all can go to crap in a week or two. We left Molinar as our group queues went from near instant to 10-15 minutes, and solo queues were nearing 30 minutes.

    We jumped to Briarcliff as we knew a big guardian guild was there, and several others who like to follow them around picking up the scraps. At first it was great, fast queues, group and solo. After nearly two weeks though it has followed the same state. Is it an influx of defiants ruining the queue times, or are guardians jumping ship again or just not queuing for warfronts?

    I think we (the pvp population) need to work together and communicate via the forums and in game if needed to coordinate a consolidation to a single shard/battlegroup. As it is it is hard to find a good shard, and it seems the populations continue to sway up and down. It would be nice if trion would assist us by consolidating us down to a single wargroup, but I don't think that is in their best interest at the moment, even though I think they will start to lose customers, not for any other reason other then waiting 30 minutes for a 5-10 match is for the birds.

    So any thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuluka View Post
    I'm not talking about 1 class being OP or any of that. I speak of the constant server hopping that seems to be commonplace, and how a strong battlegroup with good queue times for all can go to crap in a week or two. We left Molinar as our group queues went from near instant to 10-15 minutes, and solo queues were nearing 30 minutes.

    We jumped to Briarcliff as we knew a big guardian guild was there, and several others who like to follow them around picking up the scraps. At first it was great, fast queues, group and solo. After nearly two weeks though it has followed the same state. Is it an influx of defiants ruining the queue times, or are guardians jumping ship again or just not queuing for warfronts?

    I think we (the pvp population) need to work together and communicate via the forums and in game if needed to coordinate a consolidation to a single shard/battlegroup. As it is it is hard to find a good shard, and it seems the populations continue to sway up and down. It would be nice if trion would assist us by consolidating us down to a single wargroup, but I don't think that is in their best interest at the moment, even though I think they will start to lose customers, not for any other reason other then waiting 30 minutes for a 5-10 match is for the birds.

    So any thoughts?
    I don't know, that sounds like a lot of work.

  3. #3
    Plane Walker
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    Not really, we all decide on a shard and wargroup cluster and start transferring there. It might take a few days to plan, but beats the hell out of 30 minute warfront queues.

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    Ascendant Vyxagallanxchi's Avatar
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    I wish we could get something set up. I use one of my alts specifically to server hop and check out queue times on other wargroups. I really wish free transfers were more restricted... with them being the way they are it's impossible to balance wargroups for decent queue times. I'd like to see all wargroups merged, then the transfers wouldn't matter at all but I doubt Trion would do that.
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  5. #5
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    Ya, I don't think they believe it to be in their best interest to for merges, which is why I think we need both sides to come together and pick a cluster. Was hoping the guys setting up the pvp week would get involved, they already have a good influence and resources it seems. Whats a week of pvp compared to constant pvp?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuluka View Post
    Not really, we all decide on a shard and wargroup cluster and start transferring there. It might take a few days to plan, but beats the hell out of 30 minute warfront queues.
    good luck on getting everyone to decide lol!

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    Best thing Trion can do is tier the warfronts (1-5, 6-8), and look into expanding the battlegroup sizes to encompasse more servers per group.

    People keep server hopping because they're tired of getting stomped in unbalanced battlegroups. It's an age-old practice in online games that allow team switching; try to switch to the team that's winning on the next round.

    I'm staying where I am because I have a lot of non-PvP friends on my server, but I know a lot of people would probably welcome the opportunity to fight on a cluster that isn't so broken. It's to the point where I've stopped queueing for Black Garden, because 7 times out of 10 I'll be the only Defiant above R4, and we're fighting a full team of R6+ Guardians. Why bother?
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  8. #8
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    tiered warfronts will only make the problem worse. Maybe if the rift population were in the millions, but in its current state there is no way that is a solution to anything. I understand what you are saying, but those of us who are high rank had to struggle through it. Sure the early start guys didn't have to face higher ranks, but thats history now.

    For a start, does anyone know of a list of what shards belong to what cluster?

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Horsesock's Avatar
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    To me, the problem is que times – solo and premade, one cluster seemingly has insta pops, another will have 5-10 mins and another will be 20-30. Plus we have daily pvp quests and pvp rifts – all of these impact que times and take people out of the “queing pool/population.”

    Que times are also more aggravating when people are trying to rank up or to complete their gear sets – thus they float to the cluster with the fastest que pops, disturbing the previous sense of order.

    Once your gear and prestige sets are completed, many will want to engage in open world pvp (which negatively impacts que times) or run pure premades, or que sync to get in as many friends/guildies into a particular warfront. But the above challenges are still present.

    For me personally, I’m capped, have all my gear and rarely enjoy warfronts. The maps are old, I’ve done them a thousand times and if it’s a premade with my guild, we rarely face competition, so it comes down to spawn camping. So in other words, open world is where it’s at!

    It’s not structured, different rules to abide by, you generally lack control, it’s fresh and can happen in different zones, I feel like a hunter/hunted, haha, and all of this adds to the excitement.

    And doing Black Garden over and over again, gets old… even with heavy competition.

    Until Trion allows people to que up strictly, 5,10,15,20 man premades, versus other equally established premade makeups, I don’t see much changing.

    They need to implement and in-game Notification system – something like, “Defiant 15 man codex premade is in Que”- so the Guardian’s could assemble a group/drop wtvr they were doing and que.

    Until this happens, it’s the endless issue of balancing everyone’s timetables, to fit your playstyle preferences and time restraints.


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    Quote Originally Posted by tuluka View Post
    tiered warfronts will only make the problem worse. Maybe if the rift population were in the millions, but in its current state there is no way that is a solution to anything. I understand what you are saying, but those of us who are high rank had to struggle through it. Sure the early start guys didn't have to face higher ranks, but thats history now.

    For a start, does anyone know of a list of what shards belong to what cluster?
    R7.5 here, there's no "struggle" involved with queueing warfronts and collecting your free favor/prestige whether you win or lose. Eventually you'll hit R8 and get your stupidly OP gear. And no, it's not history -- ranking up while fighting people your own rank is absolutely nothing like ranking up while fighting R8s the whole way. Level a new toon and queue warfronts, you'll notice those games are balanced and are usually pretty close games. As soon as you hit 50, nearly every game is a blowout based on which side has more gear. People who ranked up when all they had to fight was PvE and low-rank gear can't even comprehend what it's like to rank up in the current environment.

    As an R7 rogue, when I find a player below R4, it's not a fight. I can kill them inside of a stunlock and they will literally not get any chance to play their toon. Opening with Paralyze and chaining into Foul Play is a remarkably bad tactic if you're trying to kill a high-rank target, but it works like a charm on low-rank newbies -- the R6+ gear allows you to play like trash and still roll people that just haven't had the game turned on as long as you.

    That's bad balance. That's REMARKABLY bad balance. And a terribly balanced game that pops often is NOT better or preferable to a well-balanced game that you have to wait 20 minutes per round for. There are other things to do in this game besides WF queue while you wait.

    Expanding the battlegroups would bring that time down, of course.

    People always complain about AFKers, leechers, and now server hoppers. Think about it for a second. Why do people do these things? Because they feel they have no choice. They don't enjoy playing a game they can't win, so they don't do it -- they just mindlessly grind favor/prestige until it becomes a game they can win. People AFK/Leech because they have a reason to do so, because grinding 1.5 million favor/prestige for R8 is a boring, soul-crushing slog of getting rolled by gear, rather than fighting players. Moderately intelligent humans don't subject themselves to ******** like that, so they employ workarounds.
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  11. #11
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    Merge all the battlegroups and disable server transfers. Problem solved.

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    If you are group queueing it will take longer to get into a warfront. The server I am on if you solo queue takes less then a few minutes to get into one if your are 50. I am not sure about the other levels so I can not vouche for that. But I know Faemist and Wolfsbane are in the same queue. I can't remember the other shards that are on there off hand without queueing. The activity here on Faemist is also pretty decent as far as guardian vs defiants. I would only like to see the queue times for group queues shrink as it takes forever if u have 3+ people. So usually the group I run with we all solo queue at the same time and usually end up in the same warfront. It is a pain but at least it works and we get our WF's in!
    Last edited by KDM255; 09-08-2011 at 07:02 AM.


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natir View Post
    Merge all the battlegroups and disable server transfers. Problem solved.
    The funny thing is this would have gone a long way to fix a lot of issues. I was on Briar for a while and the reason my guild left was queue times. OP says defiant queue times were amazing, but guess what guardian queue times are like in that case? Absolute ****. No one likes to sit in queue for 10 minutes, so the overpopulated side tends to bail. It's just a pointless game of transfer musical chairs in order to get insta queues.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Menaace's Avatar
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    There is no declining state of pvp that a transfer will outright solve... this is the true state, there are things that are just results of Rift's design and latest series of patches


    1) I'd estimate that about 75% of the people who queue wf's are PvP/PvE'rs who grind it out for BiS items (such as trinkets) for the sole purpose of PvE. As in "true pvp'rs" who pvp for pvp's sake are an actual minority in this game, and most of the people you play against in wf's are in fact PvE'rs. Rift patched that away, therefore in an heartbeat a lot of PvE'rs are saying "Thank god I don't have to PvP anymore" and are not queueing.

    2) School started back up about 2 weeks ago for most younger players, so their activity is declining. I noticed this in my guild, college students just got busy and the guild less active.

    3) Double Favor Weekend + Pre-hotfix conditions giving out 12,000 favor \ 6,000 prestige Port Scion's for a week. Everyone gets Rank 8 in a week, people who are grinding out PvP gear all of a sudden are bored with wf's and not queueing because they are end game, as in a huge percentage of PvP'rs are just PvP grinders, working on their gear. They now have it, don't queue anymore also.


    4) Free server transfers + PvP daily quests so you can PvE for PvP gear is the single most damaging combination for PvP. This ruined Aion. Since the majority of players would rather PvE carebear for their PvP gear, allowing them to freely move somewhere where their faction was "in control" creates this mouthwatering opportunity for effortless PvE grinding. It's snowballing rifting effect that makes every single server imbalance further as the days go by. Sure the PvP guilds can chase this around to be an underdog (or do what we did which was try to get ahead of the trend), but again we are a minority and ultimately subject to what the PvE guilds are doing, because they outnumber us 3-to-1 easily. You will see with the "1-week cooldown" that a server will seem favorable for you for maybe a month until everyone else jumps on the bandwagon, PvP'rs flood there, and PvE'rs leave... creating this impression of "man, this server is empty" and the PvP'rs are back to square one again.




    SOLUTION
    1) Close server transfers or give them 1-month cooldowns
    2) If you want to leave server transfers open, then get rid of PvE for favor/prestige quests, make it to where there's no added benefit for your faction to be in controll while people can freely move where they want to go... This option is less satisfactory than option 1.
    3) Add just one single BiS item that PvE'rs have to PvP to earn. They will queue again. Make them warfront for a while just like you made me grind 1-to-50 against dragons and spiders. PvE'rs won't quit, they will cry, but they will do it because it's a means to an end. I didn't quit when I had to PvE my toon to 50. It was a means to an end also.
    4) Horsesock's idea of "premade team formed" to be part of the warfront interface, so you know to get a team and queue up, to assist in the queue times for hardcore PvP'rs.
    5) Just f'n merge all battlegroups. There's no reason not to do this other than the fact that you want to save money on server size/maintenance. Want to not merge them all into a single server? Ok... well then make server "A" the Codex server for every person queueing. Make server "B" the Black garden for every person queueing server... etc. That way you don't overload a single server, and you have the added benefit of minimizing queue times for all.


    Doing any one of the things above, will have a positive effect on PvP
    Last edited by Menaace; 09-08-2011 at 07:18 AM.
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    Rift Disciple mauvelence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    R7.5 here, there's no "struggle" involved with queueing warfronts and collecting your free favor/prestige whether you win or lose. Eventually you'll hit R8 and get your stupidly OP gear. And no, it's not history -- ranking up while fighting people your own rank is absolutely nothing like ranking up while fighting R8s the whole way. Level a new toon and queue warfronts, you'll notice those games are balanced and are usually pretty close games. As soon as you hit 50, nearly every game is a blowout based on which side has more gear. People who ranked up when all they had to fight was PvE and low-rank gear can't even comprehend what it's like to rank up in the current environment.

    As an R7 rogue, when I find a player below R4, it's not a fight. I can kill them inside of a stunlock and they will literally not get any chance to play their toon. Opening with Paralyze and chaining into Foul Play is a remarkably bad tactic if you're trying to kill a high-rank target, but it works like a charm on low-rank newbies -- the R6+ gear allows you to play like trash and still roll people that just haven't had the game turned on as long as you.





    That's bad balance. That's REMARKABLY bad balance. And a terribly balanced game that pops often is NOT better or preferable to a well-balanced game that you have to wait 20 minutes per round for. There are other things to do in this game besides WF queue while you wait.

    Expanding the battlegroups would bring that time down, of course.

    People always complain about AFKers, leechers, and now server hoppers. Think about it for a second. Why do people do these things? Because they feel they have no choice. They don't enjoy playing a game they can't win, so they don't do it -- they just mindlessly grind favor/prestige until it becomes a game they can win. People AFK/Leech because they have a reason to do so, because grinding 1.5 million favor/prestige for R8 is a boring, soul-crushing slog of getting rolled by gear, rather than fighting players. Moderately intelligent humans don't subject themselves to ******** like that, so they employ workarounds.
    ^^QFT!!^^ Hense is why PVP in this game is just stupid and a waste of time imo. No skill involved, just dirt nap your way to r8 get gear and roll your face on the keyboard to win. Heck you dont even have to hit any styles, just put up somthing that dots them when they hit and that is all you need, you can afk and farm favor and prestige.... so fail

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