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Thread: WF PVP - epic fail

  1. #1
    Soulwalker cptndunsel's Avatar
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    Default WF PVP - epic fail

    Bracket system, copied from WOW, is fail. The disparity in gear, attacks, dmg/dps, hitting power, and healing power in the n6-n9 band versus n0-n4 makes warfront pvp damn near unplayable. Queue up and what do we see?

    * unbalanced teams in terms of #s
    * unbalanced teams in terms of composition (you know - the zero healer team - thats my favorite)
    * unbalanced teams in terms of # of toons at various levels (team stacked with 15-19 vs 10-14 etc)
    * players get disgusted and quit a raid, adding to the fun
    * go a whole day without a win in some WFs. WhiteFAIL is my fav so far. 3 total wins and I been running in there from 30 - 37 just to get the stupid win 5 quest done

    This system is FUBAR. Its almost laughable. WOW's system is poor, but you've managed to come out with something worse. You expect to keep subs with this system once Star Wars comes out? Good luck with that.

    And the fun continues at lvl 50 where P1-P4 are favor pinatas for P5-P8...
    Roma Vita

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    Funny, we just discussed this with one of my friends we started playing Rift together with. We feel exactly the same, having left WoW (which kept us interested for several years) only to find ourselves very sad about state of end-game Rift PvP after barely couple months of playing.

    I have no idea how Trion managed to achieve this level of gear disparity in a game that is only 6 months old. When we were talking I remembered how in WoW, 80lvl rogue jumped my lvl62 prot paladin in Hellfire and I managed to kill the guy - alone (yes, he was bad, and I had to use lay on hands, but still). This is like 3 YEARS (and 20 levels) of gear difference - and I still had the chance and won.

    I remembered how in Wotlk, I leveled my alt mage to lvl80, and was able to contribute positively to battlegrounds wearing very little resilience and blue dungeon gear. Hell, I had LOTS of fun playing freshly dinged 85 affliction lock in Cata (and yes, even with crafted lvl85 pvp gear I was able to compete against better geared opponents who had little knowledge of different class mechanics).

    Why Trion had to ruin it that fast? Gear difference is still way too ******ed even with recent valor patch. P8 players are still running godmode and prestige grind is in no way FUN.

    Today I find myself logging in onto my 50 less and less every day. I dont like killing badly geared players in few GCDs, and I dont like being on the other end of the stick either. This game is totally skill-less, with DR on everything gear is total king, so warfronts, PvP dailies and rifts are absolutely not-competitive zerg fest. 10-49 PvP is "ok" but since it is the same old bursty WoW model, its nothing to write home about either.

    It shouldnt have to be like this. But there is no way Trion is going to fix it - will require drastic changes which will probably affect PvE. At least in time for release of two highly anticipated other MMOs in couple months from now.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple
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    Cause a P1 should be able to kill a p8? Go back to WoW.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    PvP in this game is worthless.

    No balance, no end-game, and no fun for the R8 smashing a R1 or the R1 getting smashed. You get gear just to go back into the same place you...got the gear. Faction imbalance makes it impossible to find competitive and even numbers consistently, only in fleetingly wonderful moments, and all that free transfers have done is for PvP guilds to chase each other across shards repeatedly.
    r40 puzzlybox <rise of mayhem> whoo whoo
    r40 pizzabox wheeeeeeeee

    puzzlebox + apoth = <3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinandtonic View Post
    Cause a P1 should be able to kill a p8? Go back to WoW.
    Yes, I believe that every lvl50 who knows game mechanics, and is generally a better player, should have a chance against better geared keyboard turning clicking opponent of the same level.

    Now dont start with nonsense reply like "MMO is about progression" etc. please. Proper MMO PvP is about knowing your class, class of your opponent, and proper usage of your cd's to counter enemy ones. Game of chess if you like (only little faster and with better gear giving player a LITTLE advantage to allow for more mistakes during the fight).

    If you kill p1 players on your p8 geared toon and call this PvP I have nothing to say to you. Go kill spiders in your faction starting zone, same level of fun.

    And WoW has died with introduction of flying mounts in Azeroth unfortunately. They had amazing world pvp battle zone called Wintergrasp (this is what Rift should have done btw) but it is gone now as well, Tol Barad which replaced it is mostly a mindless zerg. Arena is nice and pretty competitive but in order to get high rating you either have to be REAL good or spend some time re-rolling new FotM 3v3 team every patch.

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisha View Post
    Why Trion had to ruin it that fast? Gear difference is still way too ******ed even with recent valor patch. P8 players are still running godmode and prestige grind is in no way FUN.

    Today I find myself logging in onto my 50 less and less every day. I dont like killing badly geared players in few GCDs, and I dont like being on the other end of the stick either. This game is totally skill-less, with DR on everything gear is total king, so warfronts, PvP dailies and rifts are absolutely not-competitive zerg fest. 10-49 PvP is "ok" but since it is the same old bursty WoW model, its nothing to write home about either.

    It shouldnt have to be like this. But there is no way Trion is going to fix it - will require drastic changes which will probably affect PvE. At least in time for release of two highly anticipated other MMOs in couple months from now.
    QFT...but meh this aint a pvp game tbh. Even SWTOR i wouldnt play that for pvp. GW2 is pvp but on the carebear side with no death penalty or dropped inventory/items. Honestly the WoW model of pvp is probably hear to stay.

    To be fair though WoW isnt what brought burst into play. Having high alpha/burst has been great since way back in the days of shadowbane and eq.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker Odnoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisha View Post
    Yes, I believe that every lvl50 who knows game mechanics, and is generally a better player, should have a chance against better geared keyboard turning clicking opponent of the same level.
    I am guessing you think a level 1 should have a chance against a level 50 also?

    Ranks in pvp are equivalent to levels in pve.

    I have said it quite a few times, if you were really concerned about fair balanced pvp you would be playing a fps.
    Last edited by Odnoc; 09-06-2011 at 05:08 AM.

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    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odnoc View Post
    I have said it quite a few times, if you were really concerned about fair balanced pvp you would be playing a fps.
    So what you're saying is that FPS is balanced PvP and games like Rift are not, and shouldn't be? That makes a lot of sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odnoc View Post
    Ranks in pvp are equivalent to levels in pve.
    Even if that were true, you don't see a general mentality that level 50 players are somehow more skilled than level 10. They are simply not compared.

    Ranks are a type of leveling system, but the system is confined within level 50 grouping. Because the system is confined that way, the rank = level comparison is not valid or relevant. And no, the "ranks should be split in warfronts" argument does not justify the comparison. Ranks would still have a great disparity in world PvP and I hardly think Trion is going to make tiered zones to compensate.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Odnoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    So what you're saying is that FPS is balanced PvP and games like Rift are not, and shouldn't be? That makes a lot of sense.


    Even if that were true, you don't see a general mentality that level 50 players are somehow more skilled than level 10. They are simply not compared.

    Ranks are a type of leveling system, but the system is confined within level 50 grouping. Because the system is confined that way, the rank = level comparison is not valid or relevant. And no, the "ranks should be split in warfronts" argument does not justify the comparison. Ranks would still have a great disparity in world PvP and I hardly think Trion is going to make tiered zones to compensate.
    No, what im saying is they aren't and never will be. Only real way to have balance is if there is no differences in classes, and it would be hard to design a fantasy rpg that will be successful withouut typical fantasy elements.

    Make sense now?

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser Delar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptndunsel View Post
    Bracket system, copied from WOW, is fail. The disparity in gear, attacks, dmg/dps, hitting power, and healing power in the n6-n9 band versus n0-n4 makes warfront pvp damn near unplayable. Queue up and what do we see?

    * unbalanced teams in terms of #s
    * unbalanced teams in terms of composition (you know - the zero healer team - thats my favorite)
    * unbalanced teams in terms of # of toons at various levels (team stacked with 15-19 vs 10-14 etc)
    * players get disgusted and quit a raid, adding to the fun
    * go a whole day without a win in some WFs. WhiteFAIL is my fav so far. 3 total wins and I been running in there from 30 - 37 just to get the stupid win 5 quest done

    This system is FUBAR. Its almost laughable. WOW's system is poor, but you've managed to come out with something worse. You expect to keep subs with this system once Star Wars comes out? Good luck with that.

    And the fun continues at lvl 50 where P1-P4 are favor pinatas for P5-P8...
    At least you don't need to win to get free PvP epics... You can stand around and get honor doing next to nothing.
    What ideas do you have for increasing tanks individually using the LFG tool?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    You could guarantee me a raid-level epic that would be a guaranteed upgrade for me in whatever slot it's for, and that would still not be enough to get me to go into LFG solo as a tank. Nothing is worth that amount of pain.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odnoc View Post
    No, what im saying is they aren't and never will be. Only real way to have balance is if there is no differences in classes, and it would be hard to design a fantasy rpg that will be successful withouut typical fantasy elements.

    Make sense now?
    It does make sense and I agree. However, I would still maintain that things like ranks are a more obvious balancing issue that could easily be avoided without poring over ability trees.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Odnoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delar View Post
    At least you don't need to win to get free PvP epics... You can stand around and get honor doing next to nothing.
    You can't do that in wow? Funny, people afked bg's when I played...

  13. #13
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odnoc View Post
    I am guessing you think a level 1 should have a chance against a level 50 also?

    Ranks in pvp are equivalent to levels in pve.

    I have said it quite a few times, if you were really concerned about fair balanced pvp you would be playing a fps.
    I get sick of seeing this reply. It's not the same.

    Comparing FPS PVP to MMORPG PVP is like comparing a turn-based strategy game to a real-time strategy game. They're different, and one is not better than another. A good Civ player will stomp the snot out of a good Starcraft player while playing Civ, and a good Starcraft player will stomp the snot out of a good Civ player while playing Starcraft.

    It's not unreasonable for a player to ask for a well-designed PVP game that rewards skill instead of hours played. What's unreasonable is for people who like the hours played model to assert that any other design for MMORPG PVP is impossible. That's patently ridiculous.

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptndunsel View Post
    Bracket system, copied from WOW, is fail. The disparity in gear, attacks, dmg/dps, hitting power, and healing power in the n6-n9 band versus n0-n4 makes warfront pvp damn near unplayable. Queue up and what do we see?

    * unbalanced teams in terms of #s
    * unbalanced teams in terms of composition (you know - the zero healer team - thats my favorite)
    * unbalanced teams in terms of # of toons at various levels (team stacked with 15-19 vs 10-14 etc)
    * players get disgusted and quit a raid, adding to the fun
    * go a whole day without a win in some WFs. WhiteFAIL is my fav so far. 3 total wins and I been running in there from 30 - 37 just to get the stupid win 5 quest done

    This system is FUBAR. Its almost laughable. WOW's system is poor, but you've managed to come out with something worse. You expect to keep subs with this system once Star Wars comes out? Good luck with that.

    And the fun continues at lvl 50 where P1-P4 are favor pinatas for P5-P8...
    Some valid points, it would be nice to see Trion limit the queue system to a select amount of classes. X dps, X support, X heals... tanks could fit under DPS. A lot of DPS would complain because of queue times... but they would figure out how to spec into another role.

    Oh! Also it would be cool to see the game track debuff/cc up time for those of us who aren't trying to top the damage and heal charts.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Violacea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lluluien View Post

    It's not unreasonable for a player to ask for a well-designed PVP game that rewards skill instead of hours played. What's unreasonable is for people who like the hours played model to assert that any other design for MMORPG PVP is impossible. That's patently ridiculous.
    It does reward skill. I outsmart people everyday on my rogue.

    I love it when someone calls me a wuss because I didn't pop out of stealth right away while 3 people try to cap a codex point. Instead I incap them, when that runs out, hit a couple of them, fight with them for a while, slip away, wait for them to try to recap, aoe confuse them. Yeah, I am a wuss because I delayed you 3 clowns for 35 seconds while my point captured instead of being a moron and just swinging my daggers at 3 enemys at once and going down in 7s flat.

    I love it when a rogue calls me a wuss because I am fighting them, and lay some bleeds and mid combo building see they popped the 50% dodge chance temp. I slip away and let it's duration run out while they bleed, then pop back and kill them when the temp wears off. He calls me a more derogatory word for wussy. Ya, I am a wuss because I'm not a moron and didn't try to melee you for 15s with over 50% dodge chance while he wails away sinking hits into me. I'm a wuss because I let your awesome temp buff that was going to save you run out, then killed you. These idiots playing sometimes don't know skill when it hits them. With how mind numbing some of the mentalities are in this game. Don't get me wrong there are good players. But when half the players think a macro jammed together with abilities is actually helping them, it's not hard to outsmart the average player you see.
    Last edited by Violacea; 09-06-2011 at 09:49 AM.

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