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Thread: Trion, can we get a statement on Rogue PvP?

  1. #121
    Ascendant Sorovos's Avatar
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    Pretty much Melee Rogues want to kill Chlora/Locks, a spec basically designed to be anti melee rogue (though i'm pretty sure NB would still win the fight, Assassins are screwed vs the build)

    Rogues aren't weak in this game..

    Marksman and Bards pretty much rank up there in most viable 5 man group spots..

    NB's are pretty much able to wreck most of the population 1v1 with ease as well..

    You're not weak by any means..

    You're just using the wrong spec and against the wrong spec.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorovos View Post
    Pretty much Melee Rogues want to kill Chlora/Locks, a spec basically designed to be anti melee rogue (though i'm pretty sure NB would still win the fight, Assassins are screwed vs the build)

    Rogues aren't weak in this game..

    Marksman and Bards pretty much rank up there in most viable 5 man group spots..

    NB's are pretty much able to wreck most of the population 1v1 with ease as well..

    You're not weak by any means..

    You're just using the wrong spec and against the wrong spec.
    Except whatever spec a rogue puts out theres a better one in another class.

    Bards are good - but not as good as support specs in mage or cleric.

    MM are mostly ignored by clerics, warriors and chlorolocks. Plink plink plink is something hitting me? Oh a HoT that'll cover anything the MM can do.

    Against chlorolocks there is no spec aMM will kill an equivalent ranked/geared chlorolock on. Same pretty much goes for clerics.

    Rogues are the weakest of the 4 callings atm - either bring us up to the levels of the other classes or bring them down to us.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    Except whatever spec a rogue puts out theres a better one in another class.

    Bards are good - but not as good as support specs in mage or cleric.

    MM are mostly ignored by clerics, warriors and chlorolocks. Plink plink plink is something hitting me? Oh a HoT that'll cover anything the MM can do.

    Against chlorolocks there is no spec aMM will kill an equivalent ranked/geared chlorolock on. Same pretty much goes for clerics.

    Rogues are the weakest of the 4 callings atm - either bring us up to the levels of the other classes or bring them down to us.
    A. Bards are far better support then Mages/Clerics in terms of actual support, You'll need a Cleric in your group period.. That is pretty much guaranteed, It's a Toss Up on Mage vs Bard, It basically comes down to if ya have a Subdue tank or not.. If ya have a Subdue tank, Dominator is better (aka mage), if ya don't have, Bard is better The Chlora/Lock spec you harp about no one actually runs in a competent 5man because it's ****..

    B. You're talking about 1v1's, Where both sides are popping cooldowns, I could imagine the Chlora/Lock would probably win, Then again, It'd depend if the Marksman is able to eradicate those cooldowns as well.. Against a Rank 8 marksman, and you're rank 8 on Chloramancer, I can pretty much tell you a Marksman will absolutely rip you a new one....In a Group it becomes even more pronounced, Soon as the Marksman starts receiving heals of any kind, He wins the fight.

    In Closing, You're comparing 1v1 specs against Group Specs, and wondering why they fail...

    Rogues have some of the best Group specs in the game, and frankly put out some of the best damage in the game as well.

    you fight a competent rank 8 marksman once as a Mage, you get back to me on how well ya do.
    Xsorus - Rank 8 Mage/Server Seastone/Guardian/Guild - Desolate

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splixxen View Post
    Considering Ailion (Rogue Lead) only made two post so far and one of those was made in alpha/early beta..
    Yeah, I'd say we have a total lack of communication
    It would make perfect sense if he no longer works for the company. I doubt they even have a Rogue lead.

  5. #125
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    I would say that valor is the main reason for the imbalance in the game right now. It looked great on paper but it just isn't working out in game.
    I say remove valor and then adjust damage accordingly to account for it.

    As for rogues. They are a bit underwhelming. Aside from the token bard, they just dont bring as much to the table as the other classes in any tactical situation save stone running.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calo View Post
    Test dummies are not good to use as examples of what can be done in PvP. You are talking about a physical damage ability that is going to take a DOUBLE DAMAGE REDUCTION in a real-world PvP scenario. It is going to immediately get cut down by roughly 40% from Valor, and then get cut down again depending on the target's armor. When you consider the amount of reduction, the damage ends up being far less than impressive. I'm in P8 gear and can't recall the last time I have taken a Deadeye shot for over 1.9k damage...in LEATHER. Remember how Chain/Plate blocks more physical damage? Yeah, real world is very underwhelming compared to what is going on in your head.

    If Rogue DPS is fine, then why exactly do we have to use an ability that DOUBLES our next 3 CP builders as a finisher just to compete with every other class? All you have proven is that our hardest hitting finisher for the archetype overall hits roughly as hard as other classes comparable abilities. Never you mind that it takes 5 hits to get there, and those 5 hits all hit for considerably less than every other class.

    Just to re-iterate another point that people conveniently ignore in these threads, nobody is complaining about MM other than the fact that they are eradicate bots and CD ponies - and largely worthless in between. Melee rogues are in a far sadder state.
    LOL, another post after yours says MM are the weakest. And there you went and equivalently said that a warfront is a good test for balance. Both of you posters just don't understand, you're mixing apples with oranges and trying to call the result a pineapple.

    Until they make something like a Simulationcraft utility for Rift, but one that can test 1v1, there is no better way to compare class abilities against another other than to use a normal test dummy as a basis for test criteria. I acknowledge that a dummy isn't a perfect test bed, but it's the best we can do so far.

    Throwing in all the zillions of mitigating factors that one calling can impose onto another calling in order to affect the outcome of what is NOT a 1v1 situation (i.e. any warfront) just can not be a proper comparison of class abilities. Too many variables!

    And so what if you have to build up to being able to use your best damage abilities? This is true for all Callings, even though the mechanisms for doing so differ! Bringing that observation into the argument as a basis for proving a Rogue class is broken is not valid! Again, apples and oranges.

    I reiterate that many making comments are forgetting what the Rogue class is. They want to stand toe to toe with another class and beat the pud out of them. Sometimes they might do exactly that. But that's not the purpose of any class! On paper, if every class was truly balanced then every 1v1 would be a draw. Yes, a draw! This game is about teamwork involving different builds, roles and callings that specialize in many different ways! The Rogue is a sneaky and very situational Calling, the only one that is, and to succeed at being that way it has certain and required abilities that no other class has. Damage (and our damage abilities ARE comparable to other classes, and it has been proven in the only test environment possible) potential alone is separate from HOW the class should be played to use that damage potential. Wanting to stand toe to toe and melee it out with a melee class or out dps a mage etc. is not what the Rogue is designed to excel at, for example, because other situational Rogue abilities and teamwork are or should be required to get the win. And that's the current state of how the Rogue is - it is fine!

    Again I say - the Rogue is fine. If there really are problems and the Rogue is equipped and played properly then the problem exists elsewhere, not with the Rogue. Fix the "elsewhere", don't mess up the Rogue!
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taptap View Post
    Stop with the semantics and nit picking. Yes it has a damage flag. But I defined what I meant by support and it had nothing to do with that flag. I said that by support I meant it is a helping class with unique abilities in that regard.
    If we're talking semantics about whether or not I have a pure DPS role then you are simply incorrect. Firstly, because all "pure DPS" roles in RIFT have at least a modicum of "support" in them. Second, because some of my DPS roles have less "support" in them than DPS roles of other classes. Bladedancer much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taptap View Post
    Yes it does. I don't care what class you are, you're going to face the possibility of death. Only the Rogue has the ability to quickly get of of range, or to vanish, and go drink (since most Rogue builds for dps do not have much or even any ability to heal themselves) and get back into the action quicker than waiting on a rez and traveling back to the battle area involves. Come on, use your ability to reason other than by trying to distort the meaning of what I said!
    Survivability means being able to participate in the fight, while it's happening, and not being killed by a few random AOEs. Running away *is* survivability, but it's not the kind I am talking about, and it's not FUN. This is a game, remember?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taptap View Post
    Is not Bard the squishiest of all Rogue builds? Look, every healer is dependent on their team mates to assure they stay alive. Isn't that true? And in warfronts, isn't it true that you have very little time to do specific targeted heals and instead you have to spam group heals? I'm not belittling the role, it's an important role! So quit being snarky with me.
    Bard is NOT the squishiest. It has straight HP buffs and endurance buffs and some self-healing. The crown of squishiest would probably go to Sab or Sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taptap View Post
    I don't disagree, and haven't. BUT, if you're losing the battle then what do you need to do to survive? That was my point and you know it. But just because you have RS doesn't mean you have an "I win" build, and you should know that too.
    Irrelevant to the point of this whole post which is that we want Trion's thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taptap View Post
    What do you want? That's completely and entirely beyond any of the points I was making, but since you bring that up then what do you want?
    Trion's thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taptap View Post
    Well then play one! Don't try to make a Rogue be one! I only agree with you to the extent that each Role for any Calling has its pros and cons. You know that, so quit with the logic bending! But the Rogue does have its own unique and amazing abilities too. It's fun to play and it is effective when played right. But hey, if you're so dissatisfied with it then play something else instead.
    I have been, my Mage. Is that really the right answer? Class X is broke, so go re-grind Rank on class Y?

  8. #128
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    This thread is insulting to good rogues who see the bigger picture of capability. This is more encouragament to write my thread I wanted to about how I think rogues are more fine than everyone says.

    Thats the problem, alot of rogue gameplay is thinking outside the box. You have the tools. No macro will make a rogue an all-star WF team player. Rogues sit at such an untouchable level in some aspects it's amazing. At r8 once you earn it you can do a lot more. BTW, just looked at my time stamps again last night since I hit r8 over the weekend. r2 ---> r8 = 59 days. If you can be bothered to put in 2 - 3 months to your toon you don't deserve to be a head honcho of the field. Rogues are plenty fine.
    Last edited by Violacea; 08-30-2011 at 06:40 AM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    This thread is insulting to good rogues who see the bigger picture of capability. This is more encouragament to write my thread I wanted to about how I think rogues are more fine than everyone says.

    Thats the problem, alot of rogue gameplay is thinking outside the box. You have the tools. No macro will make a rogue an all-star WF team player. Rogues sit at such an untouchable level in some aspects it's amazing. At r8 once you earn it you can do a lot more. BTW, just looked at my time stamps again last night since I hit r8 over the weekend. r2 ---> r8 = 59 days. If you can be bothered to put in 2 - 3 months to your toon you don't deserve to be a head honcho of the field. Rogues are plenty fine.
    I agree, some aspects are amazing, and I said it in my OP.

    But don't call it the "bigger" picture re: capability, when it's really the smaller picture: Only a few viable builds. None of them melee DPS. The one decent melee-ish build (44NB/22BD) is outclassed by Warriors and has no hope whatsoever of killing the majority of Clerics or Mages these days. It's entirely cooldown dependent, every 2 minutes.

    Is that your idea of thinking outside the box? Wait to attack every two minutes so your cooldowns are up, because without them you're just going to die immediately?

    And yeah, there's other viable builds... against other Rogues.
    Last edited by Tarrnation; 08-30-2011 at 07:02 AM.

  10. #130
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    Trion, we're asking nicely, please just give us some comments.

    - Why is the Ranger useless?
    - Why is a Rogue so squishy and yet we do damage less than other classes?
    - Why is the Assassin skill Enduring Brew never worth the GCD? (one GCD from any other class does more damage than it heals, EVERY time).

    Please?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violacea View Post
    This thread is insulting to good rogues who see the bigger picture of capability. This is more encouragament to write my thread I wanted to about how I think rogues are more fine than everyone says.

    Thats the problem, alot of rogue gameplay is thinking outside the box. You have the tools. No macro will make a rogue an all-star WF team player. Rogues sit at such an untouchable level in some aspects it's amazing. At r8 once you earn it you can do a lot more. BTW, just looked at my time stamps again last night since I hit r8 over the weekend. r2 ---> r8 = 59 days. If you can be bothered to put in 2 - 3 months to your toon you don't deserve to be a head honcho of the field. Rogues are plenty fine.
    I hope you do that, and I hope you get good discussion in it.

    I think I'm done in this thread, lol. These rogues, who think they're broken, need to play a different something. I'll not be surprised if I see them complaining regardless. They expect to pew pew for their win. They're playing the wrong Calling for that, we win but not that way. They don't (and won't) realize what a well balanced Calling the current situational Rogue is, and they have tunnel vision.

    Someone link to a post where Trion gives their opinion regarding topic discussion pro's and con's. Outside of acknowledging bugs, the only time I ever see their opinion voiced is in patch notes when something goes live, and then (as recently happened with warriors) they are likely to regret having voiced an opinion at all. These posters wanting an opinion from Trion, I think the odds are highly against getting one. Trion keeps their cards played close to their chest.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yezze View Post
    If Trion responded to every whiny teenager that came to these forums they'd have to hire many new employees just for that.

    You're not special nub. Learn to play.
    Learn to play. I love a Troll.

    I'll feed the Troll today.

    Rogue pushes his buttons and hits a Warrior from 200, barely I might add.

    Warrior feels a fly crawling on him and turns and pushes his button for 1000+.

    Skill?

    Or is 1 button better than the other?

    One has block, parry, dodge, plate and 10k+ HPs.

    The other is dead before it even matters:P

    I don't want Warriors nerfed. I want Rogues buffed.

    A Rogue coming out of Sleath should be the scariest thing in the game. But it's not. Most don't even worry about then if one is attacking you. They know you'll never kill them.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaiHeilos View Post
    If the cleric is a healer and none of you have a healing debuff or silence and you're dying to waterjet spam, you just suck. sorry to tell you this. And if he's not a healer and you still can't kill you, you should quit Rift.
    If you can't heal and the other toon can. Water Jet spam will kill you.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrnation View Post
    I agree, some aspects are amazing, and I said it in my OP.

    But don't call it the "bigger" picture re: capability, when it's really the smaller picture: Only a few viable builds. None of them melee DPS. The one decent melee-ish build (44NB/22BD) is outclassed by Warriors and has no hope whatsoever of killing the majority of Clerics or Mages these days. It's entirely cooldown dependent, every 2 minutes.

    Is that your idea of thinking outside the box? Wait to attack every two minutes so your cooldowns are up, because without them you're just going to die immediately?

    And yeah, there's other viable builds... against other Rogues.
    You do realize The Chlora/Lock build you're referring to is entirely cooldown dependent as well....

    And your cooldowns are simply better then ours..
    Xsorus - Rank 8 Mage/Server Seastone/Guardian/Guild - Desolate

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorovos View Post
    You do realize The Chlora/Lock build you're referring to is entirely cooldown dependent as well....

    And your cooldowns are simply better then ours..
    Uh. No. I can use all my cooldowns on you and you'll just heal through my decent DPS. Then you'll kill me. So mine are better how?

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