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Thread: Ranks Are Stupid

  1. #1
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    Default Ranks Are Stupid

    Now before you rush to hit that close button and copy/paste your little "not constructive" message, hear me out. Wall of text incoming.

    What are the pros and cons of a system that involves ranks and gear disparity?

    Pros:

    - Players are forced to invest a large amount of time to maintain top rank. This means more money for Rift.

    - Players feel rewarded with gear that is better than their peers.

    - Players feel like better people than their peers (e.g. Rank 8 > Rank 3)


    Cons:

    - New players entering the system are placed on a nasty curve that puts them at an enormous disadvantage. A disadvantage that is almost impossible to get past with skill.

    - New players must invest a significant amount of time while enduring the gear disparity to "earn their stripes." This means less money for Rift considering that some have no patience for the curve.

    - Some high ranking players get bored at the lack of challenge facing off against an equally skilled, but horribly geared player.


    Those are just the startlingly obvious basics. I'm sure many more could be named in a heartbeat. The key flaw in logic of the system starts at its most basic level: The PvP system in Rift is a spinoff of the PvE system.

    Both have tiers of gear. And both involve rewards for repeatedly killing opponents. However, that's about where the similarity ends. In PvE, the game gets more difficult, the higher you get. In PvP, the game gets easier, the higher you get.

    In PvE, you ride the safety rails of gear to a point where you can handle higher and more difficult tiers; the change in tier will never be painful unless you lack the required gear. In PvP, you must constantly face off against opponents who are just a bit stronger than you - or, in some cases, are ridiculously stronger than you.

    In PvE, you quickly learn the mechanics of a fight, which never change. In PvP, you can learn everything there is to know, be an expert at adapting to quickly changing situations, and still be destroyed because your opponent has better gear.

    What should be painfully obvious by now is that PvP and PvE are not the same. In fact, they are so different that they should hardly be in the same game, much less be mixed like hot and kool-aid. But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Rift is a failure of a game and their whole system is doomed from inception. What I am saying is that the system needs some serious reworking, starting with how PvP is looked at.

    #1: Make PvP and PvE gear separate. The simplest way to do this would be a debuff on each type of gear that lowers its effectiveness in the other type of battle. For example, if you enter a warfront with PvE gear, it has a tooltip indicating that its effectiveness is lowered against players. The exception would be green NPCs, for obvious reasons.

    To avoid issues with new 50's just entering warfronts, add a full set of tier 0 PvP gear roughly equivalent to what one would have at 50 through questing, available for cheap purchase through platinum. This separation would lower the chance of skirmishes at things like invasions and raid rifts, but PvP Rifts and the concept that lies with them would easily take care of the loss.

    In addition, when PvP flagged in open world, players could get a buff that protects them from PvE aggro. This would not protect them if they attacked a PvE mob (much like the PvP flag) but would avoid situations where players are getting ganked by PvE mobs while attempting to PvP and can't fight them off due to the loss in effectiveness.

    #2: Make ranks arbitrary. Give players special titles and rewards, but make the source things like leaderboards and PvP achievements.

    This would eliminate much of the grind, but overall make PvP more interesting. Some of the special titles could include 1 person exclusive titles, to increase the significance of them.

    Already ranked players (veterans) could be given veteran-exclusive titles and rewards. In addition, they would still have a very slight gear advantage over newer players.

    #3: Keep a disparity in gear but scale it, so that the increase is extremely insignificant in terms of PvP damage.

    #4: Add varying tiers of PvP Rifts and other PvP-related events. For example, the equivalent of an expert PvP Rift versus a Raid PvP Rift where expert PvP Rifts would require and encourage a smaller amount of players. Completing these would award currency to buy better PvP gear or more arbitrary rewards.

    #5: Add a form of assault posts (places where groups could form sieges and the like). This would allow groups to better coordinate attacks in enemy zones and give friendly zones something to defend against.

    #6: Eliminate the PvP soul and instead add various skills that players can unlock. This could include some of the existing skills in PvP souls, but instead would be a type of "planar attunement" equip. These points would count toward the total 66 and be limited to 10 equipped at once. Unlike the typical soul tree, they would function more like a list of abilities in a planar attunement soul. (Alternatively, scrap the whole concept.)

    If you've read this far and actually read everything before it, you probably care about PvP in this game and want it to be enjoyable. Feel free to add your thoughts.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Now before you rush to hit that close button and copy/paste your little "not constructive" message, hear me out. Wall of text incoming.

    What are the pros and cons of a system that involves ranks and gear disparity?

    Pros:

    - Players are forced to invest a large amount of time to maintain top rank. This means more money for Rift.

    - Players feel rewarded with gear that is better than their peers.

    - Players feel like better people than their peers (e.g. Rank 8 > Rank 3)


    Cons:

    - New players entering the system are placed on a nasty curve that puts them at an enormous disadvantage. A disadvantage that is almost impossible to get past with skill.

    - New players must invest a significant amount of time while enduring the gear disparity to "earn their stripes." This means less money for Rift considering that some have no patience for the curve.

    - Some high ranking players get bored at the lack of challenge facing off against an equally skilled, but horribly geared player.


    Those are just the startlingly obvious basics. I'm sure many more could be named in a heartbeat. The key flaw in logic of the system starts at its most basic level: The PvP system in Rift is a spinoff of the PvE system.

    Both have tiers of gear. And both involve rewards for repeatedly killing opponents. However, that's about where the similarity ends. In PvE, the game gets more difficult, the higher you get. In PvP, the game gets easier, the higher you get.

    In PvE, you ride the safety rails of gear to a point where you can handle higher and more difficult tiers; the change in tier will never be painful unless you lack the required gear. In PvP, you must constantly face off against opponents who are just a bit stronger than you - or, in some cases, are ridiculously stronger than you.

    In PvE, you quickly learn the mechanics of a fight, which never change. In PvP, you can learn everything there is to know, be an expert at adapting to quickly changing situations, and still be destroyed because your opponent has better gear.

    What should be painfully obvious by now is that PvP and PvE are not the same. In fact, they are so different that they should hardly be in the same game, much less be mixed like hot and kool-aid. But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Rift is a failure of a game and their whole system is doomed from inception. What I am saying is that the system needs some serious reworking, starting with how PvP is looked at.

    #1: Make PvP and PvE gear separate. The simplest way to do this would be a debuff on each type of gear that lowers its effectiveness in the other type of battle. For example, if you enter a warfront with PvE gear, it has a tooltip indicating that its effectiveness is lowered against players. The exception would be green NPCs, for obvious reasons.

    To avoid issues with new 50's just entering warfronts, add a full set of tier 0 PvP gear roughly equivalent to what one would have at 50 through questing, available for cheap purchase through platinum. This separation would lower the chance of skirmishes at things like invasions and raid rifts, but PvP Rifts and the concept that lies with them would easily take care of the loss.

    In addition, when PvP flagged in open world, players could get a buff that protects them from PvE aggro. This would not protect them if they attacked a PvE mob (much like the PvP flag) but would avoid situations where players are getting ganked by PvE mobs while attempting to PvP and can't fight them off due to the loss in effectiveness.

    #2: Make ranks arbitrary. Give players special titles and rewards, but make the source things like leaderboards and PvP achievements.

    This would eliminate much of the grind, but overall make PvP more interesting. Some of the special titles could include 1 person exclusive titles, to increase the significance of them.

    Already ranked players (veterans) could be given veteran-exclusive titles and rewards. In addition, they would still have a very slight gear advantage over newer players.

    #3: Keep a disparity in gear but scale it, so that the increase is extremely insignificant in terms of PvP damage.

    #4: Add varying tiers of PvP Rifts and other PvP-related events. For example, the equivalent of an expert PvP Rift versus a Raid PvP Rift where expert PvP Rifts would require and encourage a smaller amount of players. Completing these would award currency to buy better PvP gear or more arbitrary rewards.

    #5: Add a form of assault posts (places where groups could form sieges and the like). This would allow groups to better coordinate attacks in enemy zones and give friendly zones something to defend against.

    #6: Eliminate the PvP soul and instead add various skills that players can unlock. This could include some of the existing skills in PvP souls, but instead would be a type of "planar attunement" equip. These points would count toward the total 66 and be limited to 10 equipped at once. Unlike the typical soul tree, they would function more like a list of abilities in a planar attunement soul. (Alternatively, scrap the whole concept.)

    If you've read this far and actually read everything before it, you probably care about PvP in this game and want it to be enjoyable. Feel free to add your thoughts.
    I stopped reading after seeing the "wall of text" line.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple Thickness's Avatar
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    Hasn't this exact thread been copy and pasted before? I swear I've seen this somewhere.
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  4. #4
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    As a r8, I agree with #3. Gear is OP. It was never even close to this bad in WoW tbc/wotlk

  5. #5
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    The common idea in all games is to have ranks that play similarily competitive opponents, You see this in sports like tennis, football, motorcar racing...well, everything.

    Seems tier 1-4 and 5+ would be good enough an idea to trial.

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser AintEvenMadBro's Avatar
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    Wall of text crits eyes for 9999 damage



    tl;dr: I don't like the ranking system because i have to work my way up to have the best gear rather than having it given to me by default at level 50. PvP is a grind omg omg omg
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    Sad that people apparently lack the ability to read nowadays.

    I don't think ranks are stupid per say. Rather I think is stupid to put them in one big ball o' death and let them fight it out. If it was seperated every 2 ranks you would get some pretty nice and balanced instanced pvp. Balanced around skill more or less, class imbalances would still exist, but gear wouldn't be an issue.

    In Open World pvp (if its ever implemented in a major way) they need to just normalize everyone's stats (ie no one has a big stat advantage from gear).

    Anyone who thinks the current rank 8 fights a fresh level 50 system is ok, thinks so because they enjoy being able to rofltstomp players who have absolutely zero chance against them. IE griefers.
    Last edited by Khelendross; 08-27-2011 at 08:07 AM.
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  8. #8
    Rift Chaser AintEvenMadBro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khelendross View Post
    Sad that people apparently lack the will to read nowadays.
    Fixed for accuracy. A fair amount of us are tired of reading the same things over and over.
    Freyn likes boys in hotpants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AintEvenMadBro View Post
    Fixed for accuracy. A fair amount of us are tired of reading the same things over and over.
    At least he was constructive about it. Alot of people post about these issues and its a big ole whine that kills the whole point of the post. This guy at least broke it down pretty well, even if I think its a little bit much to get rid of ranks entirely, he's not wrong about how its killing competitive PVP. I also think he's on the right track with a few of his ideas. This is the sort of thing Trion can actually do something with, it gives them some ideas on how to improve the system but gives them room to change it how they see fit.
    Last edited by Khelendross; 08-27-2011 at 08:15 AM.
    Planar Breach Support Open World PVP and PVE!
    Sourcewell and PVP Rift Objective Based PVP A more resource efficient way of adding Open World Objective based PVP!
    Ember Isle Open World Style PVP Repurposing Lets do something with this amazing zone!

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser AintEvenMadBro's Avatar
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    I see it the other way round, i think ranks make pvp more competitive for me. It's entirely objective to the player. I personally love rolling over people who have a 2-3 rank advantage on me.
    Freyn likes boys in hotpants.

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  11. #11
    Ascendant Cromagis's Avatar
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    needs rank brackets. :3
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    Your opinion is wrong and you should feel bad for sharing it with the world.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by AintEvenMadBro View Post
    I see it the other way round, i think ranks make pvp more competitive for me. It's entirely objective to the player. I personally love rolling over people who have a 2-3 rank advantage on me.
    You contradicted yourself.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Now before you rush to hit that close button and copy/paste your little "not constructive" message, hear me out. Wall of text incoming.
    That's not a Wall of Text. Sure, it's more than the average person on gaming forums can read - but then again, they usually have the ADHD kick in after...what was I talking about?

    What are the pros and cons of a system that involves ranks and gear disparity?

    Pros:
    - Players are forced to invest a large amount of time to maintain top rank. This means more money for Rift.
    - Players feel rewarded with gear that is better than their peers.
    - Players feel like better people than their peers (e.g. Rank 8 > Rank 3)

    Cons:
    - New players entering the system are placed on a nasty curve that puts them at an enormous disadvantage. A disadvantage that is almost impossible to get past with skill.
    - New players must invest a significant amount of time while enduring the gear disparity to "earn their stripes." This means less money for Rift considering that some have no patience for the curve.
    - Some high ranking players get bored at the lack of challenge facing off against an equally skilled, but horribly geared player.
    Those are not issues with a Rank System. Those are issue with a Rank System that is not separated - that is not tiered.

    Those are just the startlingly obvious basics. I'm sure many more could be named in a heartbeat. The key flaw in logic of the system starts at its most basic level: The PvP system in Rift is a spinoff of the PvE system.
    In general, that is not really an issue. Once again, the issue is that the PvE side is tiered and the PvP side is not.

    Both have tiers of gear. And both involve rewards for repeatedly killing opponents. However, that's about where the similarity ends. In PvE, the game gets more difficult, the higher you get. In PvP, the game gets easier, the higher you get.
    Again, because the PvE side is tiered and the PvP side is not. If it were a case that R5-8 were only facing R5-8, they would have a more difficult fight than they would have had when they were R1-4 fighting each other. Mistakes would be more costly, etc, etc, etc.

    In PvE, you ride the safety rails of gear to a point where you can handle higher and more difficult tiers; the change in tier will never be painful unless you lack the required gear. In PvP, you must constantly face off against opponents who are just a bit stronger than you - or, in some cases, are ridiculously stronger than you.
    Again, one of the reasons that the PvP side needs to be tiered like the PvE side is...

    In PvE, you quickly learn the mechanics of a fight, which never change. In PvP, you can learn everything there is to know, be an expert at adapting to quickly changing situations, and still be destroyed because your opponent has better gear.
    Tier the PvP side...

    What should be painfully obvious by now is that PvP and PvE are not the same. In fact, they are so different that they should hardly be in the same game, much less be mixed like hot and kool-aid. But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Rift is a failure of a game and their whole system is doomed from inception. What I am saying is that the system needs some serious reworking, starting with how PvP is looked at.
    But you have not said this. You have only said that PvP needs to be tiered like PvE...

    #1: Make PvP and PvE gear separate. The simplest way to do this would be a debuff on each type of gear that lowers its effectiveness in the other type of battle. For example, if you enter a warfront with PvE gear, it has a tooltip indicating that its effectiveness is lowered against players. The exception would be green NPCs, for obvious reasons.
    Personally, I'm opposed to separating the game as such. Name a single book or film where the heroes had to change gear because they were fighting Mob A instead of Person B? It does not happen. When it comes to World PvP, it simply does not make any sense. When you are talking about Warfronts though, one could see where if a person were not at a certain level of gear - then the faction sending them into battle, wanting to win - would better equip their forces.

    To avoid issues with new 50's just entering warfronts, add a full set of tier 0 PvP gear roughly equivalent to what one would have at 50 through questing, available for cheap purchase through platinum. This separation would lower the chance of skirmishes at things like invasions and raid rifts, but PvP Rifts and the concept that lies with them would easily take care of the loss.
    There is no Rank 0. A fresh 50 is R1.

    In addition, when PvP flagged in open world, players could get a buff that protects them from PvE aggro. This would not protect them if they attacked a PvE mob (much like the PvP flag) but would avoid situations where players are getting ganked by PvE mobs while attempting to PvP and can't fight them off due to the loss in effectiveness.
    This is just mind boggling that you are continuing with this suggestion.

    #2: Make ranks arbitrary. Give players special titles and rewards, but make the source things like leaderboards and PvP achievements.
    Arbitrary?

    This would eliminate much of the grind, but overall make PvP more interesting. Some of the special titles could include 1 person exclusive titles, to increase the significance of them.
    It is a MMORPG...people use the term grind far too often - usually to anything requiring any form of effort or time investment. It is a trip to see people complain about grind while telling others to L2P... completely ignorant of the fact that as the person is on their L2P trip, they're grinding.

    Already ranked players (veterans) could be given veteran-exclusive titles and rewards. In addition, they would still have a very slight gear advantage over newer players.
    When you have already solved the issue by creating tiers on the PvP side to match the PvE side, all of this is fruitless.

    #3: Keep a disparity in gear but scale it, so that the increase is extremely insignificant in terms of PvP damage.
    Or once again, just tier the PvP side.

    #4: Add varying tiers of PvP Rifts and other PvP-related events. For example, the equivalent of an expert PvP Rift versus a Raid PvP Rift where expert PvP Rifts would require and encourage a smaller amount of players. Completing these would award currency to buy better PvP gear or more arbitrary rewards.
    PvP Rifts take place in the World...how are you going to encourage smaller amounts of players in something which is meant to attract larger number of players?

    #5: Add a form of assault posts (places where groups could form sieges and the like). This would allow groups to better coordinate attacks in enemy zones and give friendly zones something to defend against.
    Faction population imbalance comes to mind...

    #6: Eliminate the PvP soul and instead add various skills that players can unlock. This could include some of the existing skills in PvP souls, but instead would be a type of "planar attunement" equip. These points would count toward the total 66 and be limited to 10 equipped at once. Unlike the typical soul tree, they would function more like a list of abilities in a planar attunement soul. (Alternatively, scrap the whole concept.)
    While I believe the PvP Soul needs to be a form of AA at 50, I would not do it as you have described it.

    If you've read this far and actually read everything before it, you probably care about PvP in this game and want it to be enjoyable. Feel free to add your thoughts.
    Um, tier the PvP side like the PvE side... problem solved.
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  14. #14
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thickness View Post
    Hasn't this exact thread been copy and pasted before? I swear I've seen this somewhere.
    I copy/pasted it straight from my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by AintEvenMadBro View Post
    Fixed for accuracy. A fair amount of us are tired of reading the same things over and over.
    I know, the people in your background who make you read everything on the forums are just cruel.

    Quote Originally Posted by AintEvenMadBro View Post
    I see it the other way round, i think ranks make pvp more competitive for me. It's entirely objective to the player. I personally love rolling over people who have a 2-3 rank advantage on me.
    Yes, but that's a 2-3 rank advantage. The playing field goes absolutely haywire when it's 5-6 rank advantage or you're playing against opponents who are equally skilled and higher rank.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    Um, tier the PvP side like the PvE side... problem solved.
    Perhaps my examples were not clear enough in discerning between PvP and PvE. One of my points was that they are not the same and cannot simply be tossed into the same type of system with expected success.

    So how do you propose creating tiers in open world? The area where so many players get joy out of the spontaneity of PvP? (Yes, ganking/griefing happens too, but that's neither here nor there.)

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    Personally, I'm opposed to separating the game as such. Name a single book or film where the heroes had to change gear because they were fighting Mob A instead of Person B? It does not happen. When it comes to World PvP, it simply does not make any sense. When you are talking about Warfronts though, one could see where if a person were not at a certain level of gear - then the faction sending them into battle, wanting to win - would better equip their forces.
    You forget that PvP and PvE gear are already separated by key stats; there are just no glaring restrictions to what you can equip. Also, why don't you put down the lore book for one moment and think about game mechanics. Name a single book or film where players go do the same types of quests over and over so that they can "level up." Can't think of one? That's what I thought.


    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    It is a MMORPG...people use the term grind far too often - usually to anything requiring any form of effort or time investment. It is a trip to see people complain about grind while telling others to L2P... completely ignorant of the fact that as the person is on their L2P trip, they're grinding.
    I use the term "grind" for a very specific definition: Any part of progression that involves repetitive actions with little thought needed and large amounts of time invested. Getting to Rank 8 through warfronts is the perfect example. Because of the design, players can literally queue up and mash buttons against each other until they hit Rank 8. That is why I call it a grind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post
    Perhaps my examples were not clear enough in discerning between PvP and PvE. One of my points was that they are not the same and cannot simply be tossed into the same type of system with expected success.
    The PvP gear comes along to match a certain level of gearing done on the PvE side. You separate WFs based on that...what is the issue? The PvE design in this game (like many games) follows the meatier mob with the bigger club concept. The actual difficulty does not increase - the cost of making mistakes increases. You meet the gear check and don't screw up, you complete the PvE exercise. While PvP is not the scripted dance that PvE is, the gear check and costliness of mistakes does exist...enough so to mirror the PvE side in trying to tier the ranks.

    So how do you propose creating tiers in open world? The area where so many players get joy out of the spontaneity of PvP? (Yes, ganking/griefing happens too, but that's neither here nor there.)
    Why on Earth would I attempt to create tiers in Open World PvP? Outside of Soul balance issues, OWPvP is about who brings the biggest guns and the most guys that know how to use those guns. If you're a R1 and get rolled by a R8 in World PvP...that is going to happen. You show up with your 20 guys - they show up with 60 guys... dookie happens. That is World PvP. Tiers would obviously only apply to WFs.

    You forget that PvP and PvE gear are already separated by key stats; there are just no glaring restrictions to what you can equip. Also, why don't you put down the lore book for one moment and think about game mechanics. Name a single book or film where players go do the same types of quests over and over so that they can "level up." Can't think of one? That's what I thought.
    Karate Kid. Wax on, Wax off....

    I use the term "grind" for a very specific definition: Any part of progression that involves repetitive actions with little thought needed and large amounts of time invested. Getting to Rank 8 through warfronts is the perfect example. Because of the design, players can literally queue up and mash buttons against each other until they hit Rank 8. That is why I call it a grind.
    How is that any different from anything else though? To improve a crafting skill - you are grinding. To level up - you are grinding. To increase notoriety - you are grinding. Improving anything is grinding.

    Way back when I was learning to type - guess what, it was a case of typing a lot of the same things over and over and over again. Grinding. Somebody that is learning to play tennis and looking to get better? Grinding. You name it, if you're trying to improve something - you're practicing it, you're grinding it.
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