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Thread: Why flat reductions do not work...

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    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Default Why flat reductions do not work...

    Damage:

    You have a R8 whacking away on a R8 - fine.
    You have a R1 whacking away on a R1 - fine.
    You have a R1 whacking away on a R8 - fail.

    Healing:

    You have a R8 healing damage from a R8 - fine.
    You have a R1 healing damage from a R1 - fine.
    You have a R1 healing damage from a R8 - fail

    Since Trion appears reluctant to follow the logical path of separating Warfronts based on Rank(Gear), perhaps they might consider the logical path of sliding scales instead of flat reductions?

    Yes, yes, I know - it still involves logic so it will not happen. One can dream while hitting the Respawn button though...
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    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    so what you're saying is, rank 1 should be superior to rank 8.

    btw if it doesn't make sense, don't quote me. quote yourself, that's what you're saying, not me.
    Last edited by Corian; 08-24-2011 at 02:49 PM.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

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    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corian View Post
    so what you're saying is, rank 1 should be superior to rank 8.

    btw if it doesn't make sense, don't quote me. quote yourself, that's what you're saying, not me.
    No, I quoted you. Because that is not what I said in the least, and I felt the need to point out your lack of reading comprehension for everybody to laugh at... I know I called the GF over. She laughed at you. I might even tweet a link to it so the folks following me can come and laugh at you. I might even take a screenshot of it to send out with my Christmas cards later this year so everybody that gets one can laugh at you. I might even take a screenshot of it and do some custom t-shirts and hats over at CafePress to wear around town on the weekend so people can laugh at you...

    ...just saying.
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    Quit crying already, you don't need to warfront to get ranks. you don't need r8 to kill people, you don't need r8 to have fun. Time spent in an mmo is always going to give am advantage, get over it.

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    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nooblet View Post
    Quit crying already, you don't need to warfront to get ranks. you don't need r8 to kill people, you don't need r8 to have fun. Time spent in an mmo is always going to give am advantage, get over it.
    This really does not make sense based on my OP. It is not a case of taking away the advantage that a R8 would have over a R1 in a WF (the advantage that some apparently cannot live without). The R1 is already useless against the R8. What is the point of making the R1 more useless?

    It is a game. It is meant to be entertaining. For people to continue playing, they usually need to have fun.

    It was already less than fun for a fresh 50. With flat reductions, it is even less fun for them.

    No doubt Trion has screwed over many of us that have been here since the headstart with certain things. That happens as well. This is not asking for anybody to be screwed over though...

    ...so why treat it like that? Need the R1s to feed your epeen and give you the illusion of having skill when everybody knows it is gear?
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    This really does not make sense based on my OP. It is not a case of taking away the advantage that a R8 would have over a R1 in a WF (the advantage that some apparently cannot live without). The R1 is already useless against the R8. What is the point of making the R1 more useless?

    It is a game. It is meant to be entertaining. For people to continue playing, they usually need to have fun.

    It was already less than fun for a fresh 50. With flat reductions, it is even less fun for them.

    No doubt Trion has screwed over many of us that have been here since the headstart with certain things. That happens as well. This is not asking for anybody to be screwed over though...

    ...so why treat it like that? Need the R1s to feed your epeen and give you the illusion of having skill when everybody knows it is gear?
    If the rank 1 had skill, they would have fun, and rank up quick regardless. 90% of the playerbase is terrible however. And a terrible r1 is going to lose to a skilled (lol) r8 no matter what you do. They of course will say gear it's the problem. I garuntee if you took 5 rank 8s and they took off all their gear and fought 5 rank 1s in gear, the rank 8s would win.

    I'm not sure what you are sugguesting, but if it's what I think, you are going to have r1s in pve gear 1 shotting rank 8s.

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    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nooblet View Post
    If the rank 1 had skill, they would have fun, and rank up quick regardless. 90% of the playerbase is terrible however. And a terrible r1 is going to lose to a skilled (lol) r8 no matter what you do. They of course will say gear it's the problem. I garuntee if you took 5 rank 8s and they took off all their gear and fought 5 rank 1s in gear, the rank 8s would win.

    I'm not sure what you are sugguesting, but if it's what I think, you are going to have r1s in pve gear 1 shotting rank 8s.
    I thought it was pretty clear what I stated. Instead of flat reductions, you have sliding scales.

    Say you have a 10% dmg reduction.

    R1vR1 = 10%
    R8vR8 = 10%

    Given there are four sets of gear R1/2, R3/4, R5/6, R7/8 - there would be the full 10% and then 7.5%, 5%, 2.5%.

    R1vR3 = 7.5%
    R1vR5 = 5%
    R1vR7 = 2.5%

    A R8 would always have their 10% reduction - there is nobody above them.

    A R8 with a 10% reduction is still going to destroy the R1 with only the 2.5% reduction.

    A group of R1-5 or so with the sliding scale might have that chance against the R8 though.

    At the end of WF, when the fresh 50s look at the damage they worked their butts off to do - it might be more than what a healer did accidentally with autoattacks.

    It is not about trying to equalize them in the least nor about making R1 greater than R8....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nooblet View Post
    If the rank 1 had skill, they would have fun, and rank up quick regardless. 90% of the playerbase is terrible however. And a terrible r1 is going to lose to a skilled (lol) r8 no matter what you do. They of course will say gear it's the problem. I garuntee if you took 5 rank 8s and they took off all their gear and fought 5 rank 1s in gear, the rank 8s would win.

    I'm not sure what you are sugguesting, but if it's what I think, you are going to have r1s in pve gear 1 shotting rank 8s.
    Please, I outplay the **** out of most rank 8s (like 99%), yet they still trash me because I'm in rank 4 gear.

    And no, Rank 1 against Rank 8s isn't fun at all.


    This game its
    Gear>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ski ll
    Last edited by Shadowprison; 08-24-2011 at 03:51 PM.

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    what they need to do is put max valor starting on p1 p2 pieces and only boost other stats accordingly per Prestige rank.

    That way starting from the get go you are max damage reduction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    if i can't be happy no one can be happy!!!!!!!1111
    Quote Originally Posted by Gualtiero View Post
    It takes to long to clear trash and the boss is too hard! Nerf the whole raid!
    The dude playing that warrior is better than me! Nerf his whole class!
    The OP types the truth! Nerf his keyboard!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBidnis View Post
    what they need to do is put max valor starting on p1 p2 pieces and only boost other stats accordingly per Prestige rank.

    That way starting from the get go you are max damage reduction.
    I would not recommend the system I outlined in the first post were this the case. It took into account the difference in Valor between low rank and high rank toons. It would require a reworking of the scales to base it just on stat increases.

    The flat Valor idea is one I have seen before. It is an interesting area of discussion. On one hand, R8vR8 would see no difference. R1vR1, R1s would have a hard time killing each other. R1s would see no difference beating on the R8, but the R8 would see a difference in beating on the R1. They would still have the overall stat edge - they'd do as much damage on the R1 as they would on a R8 (for the most part), but that R1 would still be hitting them for next to nothing. It would increase R1 survivability without increasing their chance to kill outside of roaming in packs against single targets.
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    I would not recommend the system I outlined in the first post were this the case. It took into account the difference in Valor between low rank and high rank toons. It would require a reworking of the scales to base it just on stat increases.

    The flat Valor idea is one I have seen before. It is an interesting area of discussion. On one hand, R8vR8 would see no difference. R1vR1, R1s would have a hard time killing each other. R1s would see no difference beating on the R8, but the R8 would see a difference in beating on the R1. They would still have the overall stat edge - they'd do as much damage on the R1 as they would on a R8 (for the most part), but that R1 would still be hitting them for next to nothing. It would increase R1 survivability without increasing their chance to kill outside of roaming in packs against single targets.



    This is the solution the p1's arent asking not to die to p8's they just don't want to die as fast. A p1 still knows he/she will die to the p8 it will just take a little longer and a lucky string of crits and you just may kill that p8.
    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    if i can't be happy no one can be happy!!!!!!!1111
    Quote Originally Posted by Gualtiero View Post
    It takes to long to clear trash and the boss is too hard! Nerf the whole raid!
    The dude playing that warrior is better than me! Nerf his whole class!
    The OP types the truth! Nerf his keyboard!
    Ladyfae Def Cleric R40 Bidnis Def Warrior R19 Shortdawg Guard Rogue R7

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    No, I quoted you. Because that is not what I said in the least, and I felt the need to point out your lack of reading comprehension for everybody to laugh at... I know I called the GF over. She laughed at you. I might even tweet a link to it so the folks following me can come and laugh at you. I might even take a screenshot of it to send out with my Christmas cards later this year so everybody that gets one can laugh at you. I might even take a screenshot of it and do some custom t-shirts and hats over at CafePress to wear around town on the weekend so people can laugh at you...

    ...just saying.
    it's neat that you went here instead of clarifying your position. again, you're the one trying to say something. say it, man. you can make fun of me, i'm a big boy i can take it. but if you're going to make a thread, ****ing say something.

    you have... like some kind of silly chart thing, indicating that rank 1 is inferior to rank 8. well that's a big duh there, buddy. but if you aren't saying rank 1 should be superior to rank 8, then what the hell are you trying to say by pointing this out?

    that equal valor makes rank 1 even worse than it is?

    that you think rank 1 is fine where it is now?

    i mean, seriously, what are you trying to say?

    again, don't quote me, just actually ****ing say something.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  13. #13
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    Adding valor to beginning gear so noob 50's don't get owned and reducing the valor defense bonus for a r1vr8 in favor of the lower rank player won't work because the damage is so high.

    I have warriors kill me in under 5 seconds with 850 valor you think 500 is going to matter? The thing is damage will remain high due to PvE gear and pvp weapons so it will still at most make a minor difference.

  14. #14
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    Rate down, to much crying from the OP, everyday.

    Can I haz ur moniez.
    Quote Originally Posted by Auden View Post
    I think the problem is too many terrible players in Rift that are involved with PVP.

    As well as when they die in PVP, all they see on their screen is the warrior.. not the other 5 ranged classes that assisted him.

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    See here is the thing though.

    The r8 hit a ceiling. He has all his gear, he can't get higher. He is full geared r8.

    The r1 player, if they play for the next 2 - 3 months, they will end up an r7/8 player and be equal with the unfair competition 2 months ago while the guy 2 months ago hit the ceiling and now you are even.

    This is why it is based on time spent...progression isn't infinity, you do hit a ceiling and there is no sense in balancing the ceiling with the floor. The point of their game is that you play it and earn rewards along the way and you go up a stairway to the ceiling, not a 1 button elevator straight to the top.

    This is why there is no problem. This is why you don't need to 'balance' ranks. My time stamps from the 35 days it took me to go from p2 - p6 (pre p7/8) also fall in between a portion of that time where Unseen quests didn't even exist, no bonus whitefalls, no favorfest 2011, no 6 month birthday of Rift coming up. If I could re-do my progressive path today I bet I could cut the time down by atleast 7 days with all the dailys, bonus weekends and raid rifts/weeklys. I also am not the most hardcore of player although I feel I play more than average. So if you fall more to average or below average, your mileage should still only be 1 - 2 months of simple honest gameplay until you match the guy who destroyed you when you dinged 50.

    I don't see anything wrong with an r8 banging up a new 50 like its a 41 vs a 49 going up against one another in lower brackets. Just like being 41 or rank 1, you don't last there if you just play and before you know it your 45 and fairing much better. Just translate the 9 levels present in the lower brackets, relate the concept to prestige ranks, and expand the time frame to achieve each next step. Also in lower brackets lots of people don't bother to do squat to their toons, at 50 people actually care about their toons gear and make sure their loose ends are tight. Opposed to like when I was leveling, I was just sloppy sometimes missing items, sometimes garbage items 15 levels lower...just a 1 time path I was walking, I put up with it. Overall though this is why the current scene isn't too bad.

    Explained in another thread, if anything they have helped lower ranks based on valor availability verses required rank. Unseen merchant requires no prestige rank only faction. R7/8 got no valor gains. They have answered the cry of fresh 50's being held back by rank and valor and made avenues to get valor outside of pure rank requirements.

    A fresh 50 with a huge slab of 500 valor though will still suffer due to gear differences. What I don't get is....everyone playing this is a living human. The people who hit r8.....did what it took and they earned it. They should be able to steamroll a fresh 50, they spent the time and invested it into their toon. Reap the rewards. Roll the lower ones and put up a good battle to the even ones. But if he did it, what makes it that everyone else can't?
    Last edited by Violacea; 08-24-2011 at 06:34 PM.

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