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Thread: PVP "fixes" and the reasons they will not work.

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default PVP "fixes" and the reasons they will not work.

    Browsing through these forums all you see are these solutions to "completely fix" PVP.

    1. Remove Valor/Equalize Valor:
    Removing Valor: Essentially if you remove valor, then people in raid gear will own you in 2 shots, nuff said.
    Equalizing all valor between P1-P8 (P6), Viable solution, but once again a solution aimed towards casual/new 50s. With marginally gains in gears for the many hours spent farming prestige, "hardcore" pvp players will most likely loose motivation/quit.

    2. Separating Prestige Groups: People hate to wait, what is worse then getting owned and earning less prestige and favor? Not getting into a warfront in the first place. Recall what separating premade groups and pug groups for warfronts resulted in. 1+ hr waits to get into a warfront with your premade unless pre-arranged games. Also what happens when the majority of R1 R2 players move to the next bracket? No more games for the lower bracket.

    3. Healers are OP, i can not solo him: How is a healer meant to keep others up, when he/she can not even keep themselves up against 1 dps?

    4. Warriors are OP: Devs obviously plays warriors.

    Lets combine all these solutions and see a trailer of rift in the future.

    You are now queued for warfront R7-R8: 45mintues later, Black Garden has popped. You Enter and instantly die as valor has been nerfed. Then you notice a obvious lack of healer, so instead you go healer, just to realise your heals has been nerfed and you can not keep anyone up as they now get 2-3 shotted, a rogue opens on you and you are dead. The team with the most warriors wins.

  2. #2
    Shadowlander Simplyred's Avatar
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    "Equalizing all valor between P1-P8 (P6), Viable solution, but once again a solution aimed towards casual/new 50s. With marginally gains in gears for the many hours spent farming prestige, "hardcore" pvp players will most likely loose motivation/quit. "

    Not as many as new 50's that will quit.
    Marginal gains? I think the stat increases from r1 to r8 gear are slightly more than marginal

  3. #3
    Rift Chaser
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    1. 50% more HP, 100% more weap dps, etc is marginal?

    2. Didn't affect non premades. You still have (at least) the same amount of people queueing, you'll just wait for only good matches. It's like people don't know basic math. You're also assuming no new players get to 50, in which case the game is already dead. In its current state, this game's pvp can't retain new players, that can be fixed.
    Last edited by croon; 08-24-2011 at 03:05 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrortc View Post
    Browsing through these forums all you see are these solutions to "completely fix" PVP.

    1. Remove Valor/Equalize Valor:
    Removing Valor: Essentially if you remove valor, then people in raid gear will own you in 2 shots, nuff said.
    Equalizing all valor between P1-P8 (P6), Viable solution, but once again a solution aimed towards casual/new 50s. With marginally gains in gears for the many hours spent farming prestige, "hardcore" pvp players will most likely loose motivation/quit.

    2. Separating Prestige Groups: People hate to wait, what is worse then getting owned and earning less prestige and favor? Not getting into a warfront in the first place. Recall what separating premade groups and pug groups for warfronts resulted in. 1+ hr waits to get into a warfront with your premade unless pre-arranged games. Also what happens when the majority of R1 R2 players move to the next bracket? No more games for the lower bracket.

    3. Healers are OP, i can not solo him: How is a healer meant to keep others up, when he/she can not even keep themselves up against 1 dps?

    4. Warriors are OP: Devs obviously plays warriors.

    Lets combine all these solutions and see a trailer of rift in the future.

    You are now queued for warfront R7-R8: 45mintues later, Black Garden has popped. You Enter and instantly die as valor has been nerfed. Then you notice a obvious lack of healer, so instead you go healer, just to realise your heals has been nerfed and you can not keep anyone up as they now get 2-3 shotted, a rogue opens on you and you are dead. The team with the most warriors wins.
    I dont think normalizing valor is the way to go. Trion has made raid gear scale so insanely that 650+ valor is required for pvp to be interesting.

    I also dont get the Q times objection to ranked/tiered pvp. Cant they just broaden the battlegroups to adjust? Or, let people switch factions to balance these?
    My advice for Trion is to move R7-8 into their own league. A R8 warrior/Rogue hitting a r1-r6 Cleric is equivalent to Mike Tyson beating up kids outside an orphanage. Its just sad.

  5. #5
    Rift Chaser
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    As long as you have 6+ people of each faction of each bracket queueing concurrently the queue times would actually stay the same as far as I can tell at 1 AM and being sleep deprived.
    Last edited by croon; 08-24-2011 at 03:11 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplyred View Post
    "Equalizing all valor between P1-P8 (P6), Viable solution, but once again a solution aimed towards casual/new 50s. With marginally gains in gears for the many hours spent farming prestige, "hardcore" pvp players will most likely loose motivation/quit. "

    Not as many as new 50's that will quit.
    Marginal gains? I think the stat increases from r1 to r8 gear are slightly more than marginal
    I agree.

    The stat increases, especially with the crystals, are substantial. There is a hell of a difference as a meler running around with 5-600AP than there is with 800AP, which is the difference between R1 and R6... R8 is around 1000. Having triple the valor is not necessary. The new weapons alone make gaining R6 and R8 worthwhile.
    Last edited by solarbear; 08-24-2011 at 04:21 PM.

  7. #7
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrortc View Post
    Browsing through these forums all you see are these solutions to "completely fix" PVP.

    1. Remove Valor/Equalize Valor:
    Removing Valor: Essentially if you remove valor, then people in raid gear will own you in 2 shots, nuff said.
    Equalizing all valor between P1-P8 (P6), Viable solution, but once again a solution aimed towards casual/new 50s. With marginally gains in gears for the many hours spent farming prestige, "hardcore" pvp players will most likely loose motivation/quit.

    2. Separating Prestige Groups: People hate to wait, what is worse then getting owned and earning less prestige and favor? Not getting into a warfront in the first place. Recall what separating premade groups and pug groups for warfronts resulted in. 1+ hr waits to get into a warfront with your premade unless pre-arranged games. Also what happens when the majority of R1 R2 players move to the next bracket? No more games for the lower bracket.

    3. Healers are OP, i can not solo him: How is a healer meant to keep others up, when he/she can not even keep themselves up against 1 dps?

    4. Warriors are OP: Devs obviously plays warriors.

    Lets combine all these solutions and see a trailer of rift in the future.

    You are now queued for warfront R7-R8: 45mintues later, Black Garden has popped. You Enter and instantly die as valor has been nerfed. Then you notice a obvious lack of healer, so instead you go healer, just to realise your heals has been nerfed and you can not keep anyone up as they now get 2-3 shotted, a rogue opens on you and you are dead. The team with the most warriors wins.
    2. They should implement pre-arranged matches between PVP guilds/premades. I.e. you can put a on schedule and say "We'll see you then" and show up 5mins beforehand, get your stuff ready, and head in. These premade, scheduled matches should provide additional bonuses (minor). And they should be allowed to make tournaments, i.e. we want to fight so and so for best out of 3 in Dex, best out of 5 in BG, etc.

    3. Healers ARE overpowered. I was recently R5 and working with 4 other players all at once trying to take down a SINGLE healer, who was also doing decent enough damage to kill me before all 5 of us killed him. That is not balance. I am not a 'bad'. I was doing essentially the maximum dps, cc and debuffs my assassin could do, including using slip away as an offensive. Did I mention this healer had over 10k hp and took barely any damage?

    4. Warriors in general are ok -- save for a few specs that might stand for some tweaking. I am a rogue, btw.
    Last edited by Tarrnation; 08-24-2011 at 05:17 PM.

  8. #8
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    The problem is not entirely about the valor.

    Trion has made it to where each class is more self sufficient rather than needing to compliment/rely on other classes. I think this is a major flaw in the pvp system.

    A chain wearing cleric should not be easier to kill than a cloth wearing mage. In the same thought, a mage should not have as much hp as a warrior.

    Trion has also made pvp, in not so many words, gear dependent; this is another major flaw. I don't think we'll see the tier bumpage end until maybe T10 (if they continue with their current trend).
    Last edited by Taelimar; 08-24-2011 at 05:29 PM.

  9. #9
    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taelimar View Post
    A chain wearing cleric should not be easier to kill than a cloth wearing mage. In the same thought, a mage should not have as much hp as a warrior.
    The mage is investing into every defensive talent and skill that's available to his soul. If a warrior, rogue, or cleric did the same, they'd have over 10k HP with a half-dozen defensive cooldowns compared to the mage's two.

    You're comparing offensive warriors to defensive mages. Of course the defensive mage has better defense, man. That's what he's specced for.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Taptap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrortc View Post
    Browsing through these forums all you see are these solutions to "completely fix" PVP.

    1. Remove Valor/Equalize Valor:
    Removing Valor: Essentially if you remove valor, then people in raid gear will own you in 2 shots, nuff said.
    Equalizing all valor between P1-P8 (P6), Viable solution, but once again a solution aimed towards casual/new 50s. With marginally gains in gears for the many hours spent farming prestige, "hardcore" pvp players will most likely loose motivation/quit.
    I agree that removing valor would increase how quickly better geared players would own lesser geared players. I also note that better geared players are already owning lesser geared players within 2 to 4 shots or so. So the distinction, while valid, is of no practical importance and it is irrelevant. Equalizing valor has the same effect as eliminating it, where no difference exists the impact of valor would be zero.

    2. Separating Prestige Groups: People hate to wait, what is worse then getting owned and earning less prestige and favor? Not getting into a warfront in the first place. Recall what separating premade groups and pug groups for warfronts resulted in. 1+ hr waits to get into a warfront with your premade unless pre-arranged games. Also what happens when the majority of R1 R2 players move to the next bracket? No more games for the lower bracket.
    The affect was from an unrelated cause. The longer queue times for premade groups only prove that the vast majority of warfronts are not composed of people interested in queuing for premade groups, and that very fact (neglecting server faction imbalance contributions) was the sole and only cause for increased queue times for premade groups specifically queuing as such. The quoted is mixing apples and oranges, they are not relevant to each other and only obfuscate the truth.

    3. Healers are OP, i can not solo him: How is a healer meant to keep others up, when he/she can not even keep themselves up against 1 dps?
    Being it that warfronts are supposed to be about team cooperation, my comment is that proper balance would be that, in theory on paper, every 1v1 encounter should result in a draw (no winner) assuming all things being equal (skill, gear, whatever). Only skill and gear should determine the outcome of 1v1. Disparateness in gear power, but not skill, is reason for segregating warfronts in some manner involving rank and|or prestige (I'm purposefully not addressing open world relationships here, I'm only talking about warfront environments).

    4. Warriors are OP: Devs obviously plays warriors.
    See my response for point 3, above. What devs play is irrelevant to the situation and the quoted is an obviously emotional obfuscation of the core point at issue.

    Lets combine all these solutions and see a trailer of rift in the future.

    You are now queued for warfront R7-R8: 45mintues later, Black Garden has popped. You Enter and instantly die as valor has been nerfed. Then you notice a obvious lack of healer, so instead you go healer, just to [realize] your heals has been nerfed and you can not keep anyone up as they now get 2-3 shotted, a rogue opens on you and you are dead. The team with the most warriors wins.
    I think that "trailer" is non sequitur because it obfuscates by combining elements of truth between mutually exclusive conditions (like comparing apples to oranges).

    Although the title of this topic is:
    PVP "fixes" and the reasons they will not work
    I feel that the OP itself is not based on completely valid logic and truth but instead represents an obfuscated desire, where that desire must but certainly can be deduced by an informed reader of sufficient intelligence quotient (i.e. one only needs to "read between the lines").

    Nice try at convincing, though!
    Specter
    R87 Mage - Wolfsbane, Guardian

  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    Rate down, to much crying.

    Two options. Option A: Quit and go play Star wars... B: Suck it up

    Whatever you pick, just stop whining.
    Quote Originally Posted by Auden View Post
    I think the problem is too many terrible players in Rift that are involved with PVP.

    As well as when they die in PVP, all they see on their screen is the warrior.. not the other 5 ranged classes that assisted him.

  12. #12
    Era
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corian View Post
    The mage is investing into every defensive talent and skill that's available to his soul. If a warrior, rogue, or cleric did the same, they'd have over 10k HP with a half-dozen defensive cooldowns compared to the mage's two.

    You're comparing offensive warriors to defensive mages. Of course the defensive mage has better defense, man. That's what he's specced for.
    My healing cleric will never see 10k HP with any soul combination without going Justicar...which is the tanking soul to begin with. Using Mein of Leadership will nerf non-justicar heals into oblivion.

    The mage you speak of is the 51 chloromancer...which have a talent to increase their endurance based on their intellect. With high intellect (as in, T3/P8 gear), you can easily pass 10k.
    Era - Defiant - Byriel
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  13. #13
    Champion of Telara The Real Viz Shady's Avatar
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    Fix pvp? Not a chance, have to scrap it completely and rework almost every soul.

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Era View Post
    My healing cleric will never see 10k HP with any soul combination without going Justicar...which is the tanking soul to begin with. Using Mein of Leadership will nerf non-justicar heals into oblivion.

    The mage you speak of is the 51 chloromancer...which have a talent to increase their endurance based on their intellect. With high intellect (as in, T3/P8 gear), you can easily pass 10k.
    No, the mage I speak about is a chloro/lock. 51 chloromancer's in much the same boat as your healing cleric. The extra HP doesn't really mean much without the defensive cooldowns to utilize that HP pool. All it works as is a healing buffer, same as what you have available on your healing cleric, except chloro self-healing is inferior to your cleric's. I'm not saying one is more desirable to another, but you're in the same boat.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  15. #15
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    Well, my post wasn't meant to start a mage vs cleric debate.

    Just saying that a mage should not be able to out-heal a cleric. I don't care how you spec the mage; it shouldn't be able to spec that way in the first place. That was my point.

    Not picking on mages. All the classes are a fubar'ed mess imo. Too many cc's.

    Two examples off the top of my head:

    There should be maybe a 5-10 sec stun immunity after a stun duration wears off. Also, a dominator keeping you squirreled is a bit much.

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