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Thread: Kruunch's Take on Rift PvP

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    RIFT Guide Writer Kruunch's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Kruunch's Take on Rift PvP

    I don't proclaim to be a PvP expert (in Rift or any other game) and I'm just a guy slogging away along with the rest of you in WFs and open world PvP doing my dailies and Prestige grind. But I do have a lot of PvP experience, both in Rift and in other games and I've had the added bonus of being able to see Rift PvP from the side of the low ranked (I was R3 when the first people were hitting R8), the higher ranked (currently R5), the PUG (ugh) and the premade (my guild (Esti Efiu) runs some of the best premades on our cluster).

    My observations:

    1) While solo Qing in the WFs, I will often run into premade or semi-premade teams (or just a collection of higher ranked players with better gear) and no matter what I do I will get blown up without really having a chance at accomplishing anything (in some Black Gardens, this includes even getting off my starting point). It's my feeling that *many* of the complaints heard on both these forums and in game are people coming from this perspective and it is indeed extremely frustrating.

    2) While Qing with a guild group (where I am the lowest ranked player and many are R8 already) I will often see us focus down targets (usually healers first) while opposing non-premades will often flail away at various targets (our healer(s) often comment at the lack of focus sometimes they receive). This usually leads to one-sided victories where we are the only premade (on either side).

    3) While Qing with a guild group we will often coordinate 2-3 groups to Q together. Often this will allow us to have multiple groups in the same WF and I don't believe we've ever lost a WF where this has happened.

    4) When in a WF, I can tell *immediately* who is rank 4 or lower by how much damage they take from me. If in a guild group, we will often call out "soft" targets to get them out of the way first. When solo, I will often take these targets out first (since they go down fastest) and will often engender a response/feeling of being picked on (judging from the complaints I get sent my way).

    5) Many people I hear complaints from are running solo or duo (both WF and open world PvP).

    6) Most class/spec complaints I hear often have little to no accurate information on what they're complaining about (i.e. someone loses to another badly and instantly complains the it's the class/spec/gear). In some cases good points are made ... in most cases it seems to be frustration related knee-jerk type of complaints/rants.

    7) There are only two specs I've ever run across that I can say that I can't handle (as in, not even close) ... and I wouldn't suggest a nerf to either (sometimes one spec is just better then another head-to-head). Conversely, I have yet to see a spec in a group-on-group situation that is unbeatable.

    8) If I run across a spec in my class that performs better then mine, I pick it apart and take those things that work (thus bettering my spec). If I run across other class specs that give me trouble, I pick them apart and learn how to deal with them (if possible). I rarely see people do this.

    9) Rift has a much more open class/soul system then other MMOs. While the upside is variety, the down side is that it is *very* easy to get into a spec that doesn't work well in a given situation.

    10) Like most MMOs, PvP in Rift is a living, maturing system. PvP today will feel different then PvP tomorrow.

    Conclusions: I don't really offer much in the way of a summary to satisfy those with a gripe against power XX, or spec YY. From my experience in Rift and past MMOs it feels *close* to being about right (maybe a couple of powers here and there to the contrary).

    However I do think a larger issue is the general values that Valor gives to players. It just does too much. I'm already toying around with specs that will give me 70%+ damage reduction against player-made attacks and that is only at R5 (800ish Valor) and still does appreciable damage. Healing becomes a much larger factor with higher amounts of Valor (the more Valor, the more each point of healing is worth) as do burst vs. steady damage builds (Glass Cannon builds suffer greatly). This dynamic lowers (imo) the diversity of Rift in PvP (and by proxy, the enjoyment people seem to get out of PvP in Rift).

    I also happen to agree with those that have asked for tiered Warfronts. I think there should be two battlegroups that includes all servers. One would be a R1-5 battlegroup and another R6+ battlegroup. Eventually the lower ranked battlegroup would be less populous as less and less new subs come to Rift and more and more players hit higher ranks but as an intermediate solution to the current gear disparity, I think that would work well.

    I would also like to see a higher tier of PvP in Rift (past the Warfront dynamic (ala Arenas)) but I think before this can happen in a quality way the above changes would need to be looked at/into.

    Finally I would urge people to understand that PvP in an MMO is inherently a group dynamic. I would argue that you have little basis for complaining if you are solo and running around doing your own thing. Make friends, join guilds, queue together and enjoy.

    Thanks for reading.

    *EDIT* - Changed the tiered Warfront suggestion from R1-4 / R5-8 to R1-5 / R6-8 per Vaine's point.
    Last edited by Kruunch; 08-24-2011 at 11:20 AM.
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    General of Telara Thulium's Avatar
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    Excellent points, and well said.
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    Ascendant Vaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruunch View Post
    8) If I run across a spec in my class that performs better then mine, I pick it apart and take those things that work (thus bettering my spec). If I run across other class specs that give me trouble, I pick them apart and learn how to deal with them (if possible). I rarely see people do this.
    Highlighting probably the most important part of the post.

    -------------

    As for the segration of wf's it should be

    1-5
    6-8

    The reason being that 1-4 flies so fast that eventually the population pool will saturate. Also a r5 will have no chance in a r5-r8 WF as there is quite a difference in going from r5-r6. R6 will cope better.

    Also you need 495k prestige to get to R6
    From R6 -> R8 you need 855k prestige
    Last edited by Vaine; 08-24-2011 at 08:23 AM.
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    RIFT Guide Writer Kruunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    Highlighting probably the most important part of the post.

    -------------

    As for the segration of wf's it should be

    1-5
    6-8

    The reason being that 1-4 flies so fast that eventually the population pool will saturate. Also a r5 will have no chance in a r5-r8 WF as there is quite a difference in going from r5-r6. R6 will cope better.
    True, great point and I agree ... sometimes I forget about the weapons (using raid weapons myself).
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    Ascendant Vaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    Also you need 495k prestige to get to R6
    From R6 -> R8 you need 855k prestige
    Egads .. I meant to say you need 855k to get to rank 6 ... my fail math is fail
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruunch View Post
    2) While Qing with a guild group (where I am the lowest ranked player and many are R8 already) I will often see us focus down targets (usually healers first) while opposing non-premades will often flail away at various targets (our healer(s) often comment at the lack of focus sometimes they receive). This usually leads to one-sided victories where we are the only premade (on either side).

    3) While Qing with a guild group we will often coordinate 2-3 groups to Q together. Often this will allow us to have multiple groups in the same WF and I don't believe we've ever lost a WF where this has happened
    Good to know Esti Efiu is one of those unscrupulous guilds that abuses the queue system to stomp pugs with preforms.

    "But the preform queues are so long!!11!111!"

    Balanced, competitive play (as opposed to facerolling pugs with your preform) is worth the wait, wouldn't you say?
    Last edited by Isila; 08-24-2011 at 08:43 AM.
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    RIFT Guide Writer Kruunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isila View Post
    Good to know Esti Efiu is one of those unscrupulous guilds that abuses the queue system to stomp pugs with preforms.

    "But the preform queues are so long!!11!111!"

    Balanced, competitive play (as opposed to facerolling pugs with your preform) is worth the wait, wouldn't you say?
    I'm sorry you consider this an exploit.

    I do not (nor do many guilds/players). You can Q as a group for a reason.

    I do however enjoy the comraderie it engenders, and the competition that we have from some other well known premades when we meet.

    Incidentally (just an FYI) you earn more prestige/favor by losing 10 matches in an hour then you do by winning 4. In other words, if grinding your way to R8 is your goal, you "exploit" the system more by solo Qing and GETTING facerolled more then you do by group Qing and doing the facerolling. One is just more enjoyable then the other

    (I probably shouldn't tell her about 15 people single Qing together so they can ensure they have a premade against a non-premade faster huh?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruunch View Post
    (I probably shouldn't tell her about 15 people single Qing together so they can ensure they have a premade against a non-premade faster huh?)
    I can understand wanting to play with friends but abusing it with 2-3 groups in a warfront is not fun.

    We did it with 6 (3 groups of 2) once due to queue times taking forever and felt really bad about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruunch View Post
    (I probably shouldn't tell her about 15 people single Qing together so they can ensure they have a premade against a non-premade faster huh?)
    We did this a lot on whitefall weekends... having a bunch of single or duo Q into the same WF and stomp face :P

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer Kruunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ururu View Post
    I can understand wanting to play with friends but abusing it with 2-3 groups in a warfront is not fun.

    We did it with 6 (3 groups of 2) once due to queue times taking forever and felt really bad about it.
    Oh I disagree ... I find it *very* fun. Especially when you run up against another premade doing the same thing (those are generally your best fights in this game).

    Since a solid single group can pretty much faceroll 98% (literally) of the WF queues, the difference is minimal with the exception of playing with more friends.

    And I don't know about you, but if I get facerolled in a WF by a premade, I'd much rather it be by a FULL premade, then by mostly pugs and ONE premade. One's easier on the ego then the other

    But in the end, faceroll is still faceroll.

    P.S. - The chances of getting two teams (much less three) together in the same Warfront are fairly slim (at least in our battlegroup). It's a nice surprise when it happens but also allows us to compare team composition when we face the same premades independantly (all apart of that whole learning process).
    Last edited by Kruunch; 08-24-2011 at 09:12 AM.
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    Prophet of Telara NatashaK's Avatar
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    You mention different specs and it brings up a good point. Pay attention to buffs. You can tell almost exactly what spec a warrior is just looking at the buffs (and procs on buff par). Other classes you may have to to see a few skills but it is soon obvious.

    I can't tell you how may times I've heard "kill the healer, not the tank" while someone was fighting a Justicar instead of a paragon.


    While I'm generally on the PUG side of the PUG vs pre-made matchup. I'd rather they did everything they could to encourage group based PvP. It makes no sense to me that 20 people are required to PvE but if 3 queue together for PvP they're pushed to the slow queue.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Kruunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatashaK View Post
    You mention different specs and it brings up a good point. Pay attention to buffs. You can tell almost exactly what spec a warrior is just looking at the buffs (and procs on buff par). Other classes you may have to to see a few skills but it is soon obvious.

    I can't tell you how may times I've heard "kill the healer, not the tank" while someone was fighting a Justicar instead of a paragon.


    While I'm generally on the PUG side of the PUG vs pre-made matchup. I'd rather they did everything they could to encourage group based PvP. It makes no sense to me that 20 people are required to PvE but if 3 queue together for PvP they're pushed to the slow queue.
    From a competitive standpoint I enjoy the premade-vs-premade Q design system much more then if they just threw in premades with pugs willy nilly.

    As as I said before, when I'm focusing on the grind aspect, I solo Q and pray for premades to steamroll us fast.

    The slower Q's that you are seeing for premades tells you just how few premades are actually being run (part of the reason I really want all battlegroups condensed) and how quick people are to lay blame on "exploiting premades" versus their own playstyle preference.
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    Telaran Riftella's Avatar
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    I <3 you Kruunch! Very good comments, I would love to have a tiered system and arena in this game.

    Defiant in our cluster are not able to sync queues like Guardians can because we have a higher population, I've tried and failed many times. When I rarely get a queue with another good defiant premade team and we oppose a couple good guardian teams, they are the best matches. Too often though, we get a defiant premade team in blues and greens that are queued together to hold hands in the big scary warfornts! Which is another reason tiered warfronts would be wonderful, players could have the chance to fight with and against equally experienced/geared opponents, which would ease frustrations for all ranks and make warfronts more compelling to play.

    As has been said by many on these forums already, dedicated pvpers like me, do not want to face low rank players, we want solid competition that pushes us to perform at our maximum potential. Also, we don't want to be queued with low rank players who can't survive a gcd against other premades thereby preventing us from having any sort of balanced gameplay.

    I'll see you in the killing fields this weekend Kruunch and grats on your accomplishments in HK.
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    My issues with Rift PvP has always boiled down to one basic thing. What are your options as far as PvP are concerned. Based on options in my view, it changes some of the complaints we see a lot in PvP forum

    Premades. Premades dominate every MMORPG game on the market. They should, the games are for groups to play together. Rift is no worse then daoc, warhammer etc. Gear dominates in most every MMORPG we play. It should to a point, progression is fun. Class x vs Class Y. This argument will never end and once again it should not. One great thing about Rift is the ability to arrange souls for the situation. So yea if a rogue solo kills you questing, then smacks you down as a marksman in group, then rifts a stone across a map in short time, thats good use. To complain without countering with own soul set ups is counter productive

    Back to options. Right now as a PvPer you can que for WF. Problem here is options. You are new and a pugger your options are slim. You will get hammered. the WF could use some more options. Tiered I think is a good idea, better queing system for premade vs premade. I think we need more suggestions and less complaining

    World PvP. Go to pvp quest area and gank or get ganked. Same for PvP rifts. The issue here is unbalanced servers, combined with 2 factions, and little else for people to do. One of the things that made DAOC fun was multiple PvP zones (not PvE zones that people pvp in) with multiple targets. If the zerg was in one area, you had a ton of options of where to go. Rift PvP no real option

    Now you end up back with premades, zergs, unbalanced Rleveled gear and people complaining. Rift needs multiple true PvP zones with multiple objectives

    For me it is about options. options for beginners, options for small guild/groups, options of what and where to go for fun and challenge

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    RIFT Guide Writer Kruunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riftella View Post
    I <3 you Kruunch! Very good comments, I would love to have a tiered system and arena in this game.

    Defiant in our cluster are not able to sync queues like Guardians can because we have a higher population, I've tried and failed many times. When I rarely get a queue with another good defiant premade team and we oppose a couple good guardian teams, they are the best matches. Too often though, we get a defiant premade team in blues and greens that are queued together to hold hands in the big scary warfornts! Which is another reason tiered warfronts would be wonderful, players could have the chance to fight with and against equally experienced/geared opponents, which would ease frustrations for all ranks and make warfronts more compelling to play.

    As has been said by many on these forums already, dedicated pvpers like me, do not want to face low rank players, we want solid competition that pushes us to perform at our maximum potential. Also, we don't want to be queued with low rank players who can't survive a gcd against other premades thereby preventing us from having any sort of balanced gameplay.

    I'll see you in the killing fields this weekend Kruunch and grats on your accomplishments in HK.
    Thanks and yeah I agree ... our battlegroup seems Defiant light on quality premades (which is a shame considering it's Defiant heavy population wise) and a lot of the premades I do see are low ranked/geared players that get absolutely squashed. I see the same thing in Black Garden where it can be pug on pug (kinky!) but you often see the same names (same people Qing back to back) and get the same uneven battles (usually due to gear).

    We've had a number of quality Defiant players (Choo I'm look at you!) transfer to more Defiant friendly Battlegroups just to rank up faster and that's where I think the current system is partially failing and part of why you're seeing some really uneven teams (even when it is pug on pug or premade on premade).

    P.S. - Shout out to some Seastone Defiant premades and an Exiled (Sunrest) premade that are always fun fights
    Last edited by Kruunch; 08-24-2011 at 09:48 AM.
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