+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 13 of 13
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By victz

Thread: Let's try to get on the same page...

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple victz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    148

    Default Let's try to get on the same page...

    I've spent my fair share of time on these forums, but it didn't take long to notice there are veeerrryy few constructive threads here. This leads to a lot of complaining->trolling->hate->drama, and it really makes visiting these forums an unsatisfying experience. I think we can agree that the majority of these sad, impotent threads stem from the balance in Rift's PvP (as opposed to its content). The first page of the pvp&warfronts forum is filled with claims of imbalance, OP classes, cries to nerf abilities, etc, and everyone thinks he has THE right idea for "balance". Buuuttt, hardly anyone clearly defines what they think "balance" is. So my question is this:

    What should Trion be targeting in order to balance Rift's PvP, and why?

    That is, around what size group of what subset of players should Trion be tryin' to balance Rift's PvP? I am NOT asking HOW it should be balanced (i.e. not "dmg should be greater than healing" or "warriors should be tanks and mages should be squishy"), rather I am asking for a starting point from which to balance pvp. So, I'll start:

    In my humble opinion, Trion should try to balance pvp around a group of five (5) competent, organized, fully-pvp-geared, Rank 8 players. All four callings should have several useful specs, and any combination of these specs should be beatable by some other combination of specs in a straight up 5v5 deathmatch.

    Since the built-in goal of pvp is to reach the highest rank while obtaining the best pvp gear, it makes sense to balance abilities/equipment/stats around this level of character. Balancing around a group of 5 makes sense because, in my experience, fewer players (1v1 to 3v3) ends up being determined more by group composition, while much more than that (8v8+ or so) tends to become a focus-fire race. Of course, this philosophy means pvp might not be as much fun for less organized, poorly geared, lower rank players, but at equal footing, abilities and stats should scale to be nearly balanced.

    My goal with this thread is to find some sort of consensus, so future posters will have an idea of what his peers think "balance" is before claiming imbalance over a certain ability or spec after a bad pvp experience.
    Victz

    formerly Victz@Deepwood, Deepstrike, Dayblind, Seastone
    originally Vic@Ashstone
    PvP in 2.0 | Healing vids from the good old days.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    224

    Default

    Hey vic, you are a PitA to kill btw, die sooner please <3- Random DS Defiant

    Anyhow,

    What should Trion be targeting in order to balance Rift's PvP, and why?

    Complete balance will never be found in a gearing progressive MMO. With that said, I believe they could start with the WF pooling issue. Im not even sure how feasiable it would be, but... If WF ques pooled from across ALL servers, and not just battlegroups, we would see some great results. It would spread out the High ranked PvP players accross a broader spectrum, and it would also help with the spreading out of newbies amoung high ranked players. This would achieve a few goals, in theroy: a Better ratio of High ranked to low ranked players per team, Lower que times for everybody, and allow full premades to fight full premades with an acceptiable wait time. This would be a very good starting point to try, and watch how to team balance plays out.

    A bonus with this idea would also be, if teams start to get lopsided, they could always implement the bracketed ques. Again, with such a large pool to pick from, High ranked players would suffer the least ammount feasiable, and allow newbies to kill each other.

    That is more of an overall PvP balance mechanic and not much into certian class tweaks.

    I would offer this idea about class tweaks. Pick outstanding players, with in game stats to match, and allow them access to "special PTS" where this team of people from the community, could work with dev's, in a private setting, and give feedback the encounters. They would provide invaluable data from a players PoV to dev's and give them a great starting point / ideas on how to tweak class balance...
    Last edited by Columbian; 08-23-2011 at 04:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Auden View Post
    I think the problem is too many terrible players in Rift that are involved with PVP.

    As well as when they die in PVP, all they see on their screen is the warrior.. not the other 5 ranged classes that assisted him.

  3. #3
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4,000

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by victz View Post
    What should Trion be targeting in order to balance Rift's PvP, and why?
    I've said this before in a few threads, and I will say it here again. I believe the point at which Trion should start targeting to bring about the possibility of balance for PvP needs to originate in a redesign of the Ascended Class System - the Souls within each of the Callings. Since this is the core of the game and the lack of balance originates there, this is where I believe Trion should start.

    Now, I'm not talking about trying to balance a particular Warrior build against a particular Mage build. I'm not talking about going through and working on the Rock, Paper, Scissors system of checks and balances. I'm talking about actually balancing each and every Soul against a base template.

    In many PnP RPGs, there are games where character development is based on a points system. Characters have X number of points to spend in creating their characters. To offset the cost of some advantages available to their toons, the games also offer disadvantages. Thus, a player can take a disadvantage so they can purchase a certain advantage they might not be able to afford otherwise. This lends itself a decent possibility of balanced characters. Some games go so far as offering this system of advantages and disadvantages when building out particular abilities/powers.

    With that in mind, Trion would start with creating their base template with an allotment of points. From there, they would be able to build out each Soul. Through a combination of attacks, buffs, debuffs, heals, and the like - points would be spent depending on how powerful the particular ability is. Likewise, cooldowns, cast times, ranges, etc - could be applied as disadvantages to reduce the cost of said ability. The cost of certain abilities could even be reduced by placing them higher within the Soul, requiring that the points be spent in the Soul to reach that particular ability.

    At first glance, one might think that is what Trion did. However, it is obvious that they did not. Pick any Calling. Look through the Souls for that Calling. They're not balanced in the least.

    So before Trion gets into any discussion about trying to balance Calling A vs. Calling B, Group A vs. Group B, etc, etc, etc... they really need to balance everything inside of Calling A, everything inside of Calling B, etc.

    Given that 1.5 is supposed to bring AA - meh, I do not hold much hope for PvP (much less PvE) ever being balanced in the least in this game. Adding more and more to a broken foundation, just means the mess when it falls later will be that much worse.

    That is where I think Trion needs to start and why...
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
    DEFIANT

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    I've said this before in a few threads, and I will say it here again. I believe the point at which Trion should start targeting to bring about the possibility of balance for PvP needs to originate in a redesign of the Ascended Class System - the Souls within each of the Callings. Since this is the core of the game and the lack of balance originates there, this is where I believe Trion should start.

    Now, I'm not talking about trying to balance a particular Warrior build against a particular Mage build. I'm not talking about going through and working on the Rock, Paper, Scissors system of checks and balances. I'm talking about actually balancing each and every Soul against a base template.

    In many PnP RPGs, there are games where character development is based on a points system. Characters have X number of points to spend in creating their characters. To offset the cost of some advantages available to their toons, the games also offer disadvantages. Thus, a player can take a disadvantage so they can purchase a certain advantage they might not be able to afford otherwise. This lends itself a decent possibility of balanced characters. Some games go so far as offering this system of advantages and disadvantages when building out particular abilities/powers.

    With that in mind, Trion would start with creating their base template with an allotment of points. From there, they would be able to build out each Soul. Through a combination of attacks, buffs, debuffs, heals, and the like - points would be spent depending on how powerful the particular ability is. Likewise, cooldowns, cast times, ranges, etc - could be applied as disadvantages to reduce the cost of said ability. The cost of certain abilities could even be reduced by placing them higher within the Soul, requiring that the points be spent in the Soul to reach that particular ability.

    At first glance, one might think that is what Trion did. However, it is obvious that they did not. Pick any Calling. Look through the Souls for that Calling. They're not balanced in the least.

    So before Trion gets into any discussion about trying to balance Calling A vs. Calling B, Group A vs. Group B, etc, etc, etc... they really need to balance everything inside of Calling A, everything inside of Calling B, etc.

    Given that 1.5 is supposed to bring AA - meh, I do not hold much hope for PvP (much less PvE) ever being balanced in the least in this game. Adding more and more to a broken foundation, just means the mess when it falls later will be that much worse.

    That is where I think Trion needs to start and why...
    Completely irrelevant, fantastic avatar sir.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Delillo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    257

    Default

    The disparity between a p1 and a p8 is of much greater importance than any balancing between classes.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    224

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Delillo View Post
    The disparity between a p1 and a p8 is of much greater importance than any balancing between classes.
    Thank you for the well thought out feedback bro.

    Completely irrelevant
    Truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Auden View Post
    I think the problem is too many terrible players in Rift that are involved with PVP.

    As well as when they die in PVP, all they see on their screen is the warrior.. not the other 5 ranged classes that assisted him.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker Aresdi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Columbian View Post
    Thank you for the well thought out feedback bro.



    Truth.
    ROFL... whew

  8. #8
    Soulwalker Aresdi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by victz View Post
    What should Trion be targeting in order to balance Rift's PvP, and why?
    Nothing.

    It is fun as it is IMO. 1 does not equal to 8 and is not supposed to either. 8 is really greater than 1. If the game is too hard for some people, maybe they should pick another game instead. If you buy a game off the shelf from the store, there is no changing it there so why should these junior game developers get a chance in changing this one. They made the game the way they wanted and I can either choose to play it or not like an off the shelf game, and the same goes for everyone else.

    I say that the junior game developers need to make their own game then they could make it the way they see fit instead of trying to change a game that was already completed and developed by someone else.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Delillo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    257

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresdi View Post
    Nothing.
    True. Trion doesn't have to do anything. They need not concern themselves with things like... subscribers.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by victz View Post
    What should Trion be targeting in order to balance Rift's PvP, and why?
    Balance is purely subjective. Situations, callings, specs, it all changes from second to second if you were to look at all the fights happening across the game's servers. All that can be done with balance is change perception.

    For example, just prior to the paragon damage nerfs, warriors felt that parachamp was their only viable build. Now, just through nerfing paragon, they find that riftblades and void knights are not only viable, but damn good. So there isn't an objective balance to be had. It's all perception, it's all going to change constantly until they pull the plug on this thing in ten years. No use trying to do anything about it other than to keep changing perception.

    So with that understanding, we can look away from specific specs, to how players are speccing in general, and this is where the numbers and objectivity come in. I detail it in full in this thread, but here's the gist of it.

    PvP players should be using PvP souls, and maximum points investment into PvP souls should always, always, be superior in PvP to not using the PvP soul. I have a whole thing in that thread where I show a possible template for a new PvP tree, including reducing the points investment to 15 so that players can fully invest into PvP trees while keeping 51 points for their primary soul, but read that for more details.

    My point in closing is that no matter what the fight or the situation, full investment in the PvP tree should be superior for PvP, and that's something that Trion can look at the numbers for, and definitively say this needs to be adjusted.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Aresdi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Delillo View Post
    True. Trion doesn't have to do anything. They need not concern themselves with things like... subscribers.
    That's right. If they know they have a good product then they will have subscribers. The ones who either quit or not subscribe have a right to do so. They probably realize that they will not be able to please everyone so they should stick with what they have and let the ones who find the game too complicated for them to play leave. There is nothing that they can do about that. They can't change a player's ability to be able to play games on hard. If the game was too complicated for me to play and there was not an easy mode for me to switch it to, then I just wouldn't play it, and that is what most of the complaints seem to be about. 'It is too hard, Trion needs to change the game so it will be easy for me to play. They need balance and change the rules of math to where 1 is equal to 8.'

    I like the challenge and have been PvPing from rank 1 getting my butt creamed and still get it creamed sometimes as rank 6, and it is still fun to me because of that challenge. I like the fact that I will not always win and have to find better tactics, gear or do some switching of the souls to counteract the nemesis and eventually win. On easy mode there is no reason to learn better tactics, grind or search for better gear, try a new potion, etc., and victory is not all that. It is much sweeter to me when the road was hard and trying.
    Last edited by Aresdi; 08-24-2011 at 12:02 AM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4,000

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresdi View Post
    I like the challenge and have been PvPing from rank 1 getting my butt creamed and still get it creamed sometimes as rank 6, and it is still fun to me because of that challenge. I like the fact that I will not always win and have to find better tactics, gear or do some switching of the souls to counteract the nemesis and eventually win. On easy mode there is no reason to learn better tactics, grind or search for better gear, try a new potion, etc., and victory is not all that. It is much sweeter to me when the road was hard and trying.
    Challenge has nothing to do with the lack of balance. A balanced game would still be challenging. In all likelihood, it would be more challenging - certain players would not be able to rely on crutches from broken game/class/combat mechanics.

    It is usually the FotM player that is afraid of challenge and needs that unintended edge to compete... that is against balance.
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
    DEFIANT

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Delillo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    257

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresdi View Post
    That's right. If they know they have a good product then they will have subscribers. The ones who either quit or not subscribe have a right to do so. They probably realize that they will not be able to please everyone so they should stick with what they have and let the ones who find the game too complicated for them to play leave. There is nothing that they can do about that. They can't change a player's ability to be able to play games on hard. If the game was too complicated for me to play and there was not an easy mode for me to switch it to, then I just wouldn't play it, and that is what most of the complaints seem to be about. 'It is too hard, Trion needs to change the game so it will be easy for me to play. They need balance and change the rules of math to where 1 is equal to 8.'

    I like the challenge and have been PvPing from rank 1 getting my butt creamed and still get it creamed sometimes as rank 6, and it is still fun to me because of that challenge. I like the fact that I will not always win and have to find better tactics, gear or do some switching of the souls to counteract the nemesis and eventually win. On easy mode there is no reason to learn better tactics, grind or search for better gear, try a new potion, etc., and victory is not all that. It is much sweeter to me when the road was hard and trying.
    Riiiggght. A gear-based progression MMO = hard mode. Got it.

    In Rift, time invested = power. And early time invested is worth more, creating a huge barrier of entry to new players. Most players will decide to play another game- one that is fun and competitive and does not involve paying dues to the tune of getting your teeth kicked in for months bc some people started playing the game months before they did.

    Its funny what people call hard. To me, Team Fortress 2 or Guild Wars were hard, because those games require much higher levels of skill and coordination. When you lose, its because you weren't as a good as a player, not because someone has invested 1000 more hours than you. But I can see why gear-based MMOs appeal to people. They appeal to me too. Persistence is attractive. Being part of a community and working toward a goal is fun/challenging. Paying your dues to get higher on the gear pyramid is not one of the reasons I play.

    If the difference in gear between p1 and p8 was 10% or even 25% then I think my time on the game would be much longer. I would be able to log in and play a number of fun and competitive warfronts every night. I could level up alts to try other classes and roles. With the current state of PvP, there is no chance of me playing another character to 50. (That said, playing through 49 is fun and challenging since gear hasn't taken over yet).

    Its going to be very lonely around here in a year.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts