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Thread: PvP Gear: More time to attain than PvE, so why the complaining?

  1. #1
    Shield of Telara
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    Default PvP Gear: More time to attain than PvE, so why the complaining?

    It tends to bother me quite a bit when people make attempts to force players into only pvp or pve. How do they attempt to "force" this? By complaining about pvp gear.

    Before I go on, let's examine the time it takes to attain PvE gear vs equal PvP gear.

    Let's assume in both scenarios the players had maxed their gear and were awaiting the last new raid and pvp ranks.

    PvE Player: This player has all of the raid T3 plaque gear, best in slot from GSB/RoS.
    -> HK is released, this player's geared guild has no issue taking out the first boss or two. Within the first couple days of the new raid being out, PvE players are running around with a 44dps 1h weapon.

    PvP Player: This player was full r 5/6 and had favor at the cap.
    -> PvP ranks and gear are expanded. This player has to dedicate countless hours to gain 400K prestige before he can upgrade a single item. 850K prestige before he will get a weapon on par with the one the first boss drops in HK.

    There are some differences in how the gear gets acquired, for instance the pvp player gets nothing for a long time then gets 6 pieces at once assuming they had the favor. The PvE player gets drops here and there depending on calling, guild size, etc.. disregarding plaques.

    If you add up the total time required for pvp favor and ranks, it is far greater than the time spent raiding assuming a full, competent PvE group.(important factor)

    This system seems more than fair, but there is a reason some players take issue with both systems.

    First look at my bolded comment, and we'll see how the complaints arise from PvE players. What tends to happen, is players fall into guilds that are lagging in PvE progression. There could be any number of reasons, low dedication, high member turnover, too many members to gear everyone quickly. The end result is a very low return for their invested time.

    The PvP player on the other hand takes issue with PvE guilds who are on the other end of the spectrum, and have weapons equivalent to the PvP max rank, in some cases before r8 is even released. This happened with the last major content update. Personally I don't have a problem with this, as a pvp player, but I can see why some would.

    People like to throw out all sorts of reasons for them disliking people gearing in one game style vs the other, PvE players say they have to win to get gear, it takes more people, on and on. PvP players say many are "carried" in pve and still gear faster..

    The one most important fact that remains is this:Neither way is "easy" or "free" or everyone would have that gear. People who say that of either form of gearing are always behind the curve in both pvp and pve progression.

    Asking for a certain type of gear to be "gimped" in the other type of content is not the way to go. If you are pvping and a guy destroys you with an HK weapon, find a better raiding guild and get one yourself, or just keep grinding your way to R8. Likewise in PvE, don't get bent out of shape that the guy who dedicated endless hours to grinding pvp can show up and out DPS you in his mostly pvp gear.

    Most players enjoy and participate in both aspects of the game. What if PvE players had to give back every piece of gear that was attained from dps players in the raid who had pvp gear on?

    Everything is accessible to everyone, the determining factor is how motivated they are to get it.
    Last edited by Fatalflaw; 08-23-2011 at 02:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    We’re generally happy with the current state of Warriors and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them.
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  2. #2
    Rift Master KaiHeilos's Avatar
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    I started reading your post, then I stopped. Your wrong.

    PvPers have r8 and the r8 gear. They've had it for a while.

    PvEers are only 50% of the way through HK, I doubt anyone has yet to aquire a full set of Hammerknell gear because as you mentioned, it requires a full competent raid. You seem to have missed the bit where this means you're sharing drops between 20 people.

    Is this a troll thread?

    Edit: I do agree on the point that both ways of gearing are a painful grind.
    Last edited by KaiHeilos; 08-23-2011 at 02:35 PM.

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara
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    @KaiHelios: Like I said both forms of gearing have their advantage, and you made a mistake in comparing the absolute best pve gear with max pvp gear.

    The most important points you missed:
    ->If pvp gear were better or easier everyone would have it.
    ->Raiders had a r8 equivalent weapon off the first boss of HK within a day or two of it being released.
    ->All content is available to everyone.(see point #1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    We’re generally happy with the current state of Warriors and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them.
    R8 Rogue
    R8 Warrior

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    Ascendant Hoss616's Avatar
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    It is much easier to get R8 gear.
    Hoss

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    Ascendant mo0trix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoss616 View Post
    It is much easier to get R8 gear.
    It sure is.

    Also R8 gear has valor...... which if you have a full set, makes you pretty much invincible unless you're fighting against R6+

    The biggest fail in the game for me so far has been PvP gear.... it's now often used for the hardest raid in game which just proves it is far too good. Healing clerics especially are laughing their **** off at how easy it is to attain their items without even needing HK drops.

    *NOT Working as intended*

  6. #6
    Rift Master KaiHeilos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    @KaiHelios: Like I said both forms of gearing have their advantage, and you made a mistake in comparing the absolute best pve gear with max pvp gear.
    I was comparing Hammerknell drops with r8 gear. Was I supposed to compare something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    The most important points you missed:
    ->Raiders had a r8 equivalent weapon off the first boss of HK within a day or two of it being released.
    ->All content is available to everyone.(see point #1)
    [/quote]

    I agree with these points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    If pvp gear were better or easier everyone would have it.
    This I disagree with. PvP gear is not hard to get, there's no complex boss mechanics to learn, there's no raid groups that need to be formed, there's no requirement to rely on other people being as good as you and being on voice comms to succeed.

    You queue solo, you run around for a few minutes, you get prestige. The only roadblock to PvP gear is the amount of times you have to repeat this inane procedure to aquire the amount of prestige to gain r8.

  7. #7
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoss616 View Post
    It is much easier to get R8 gear.
    Please describe what evidence you have to arrive at this conclusion. Also list your guild's current pve progression, how much time they spend raiding, and how long the same members have been raiding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    We’re generally happy with the current state of Warriors and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them.
    R8 Rogue
    R8 Warrior

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    Ascendant mo0trix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    Please describe what evidence you have to arrive at this conclusion. Also list your guild's current pve progression, how much time they spend raiding, and how long the same members have been raiding.
    PvP grinding can be done solo.

    You're getting nothing out of any expert dungeon or raid solo though.

    Automatically that makes it easier obtain, unless your guild raids 10 hours a day.

  9. #9
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    @KaiHelios: You are overlooking some things. Regardless of having to learn fights and be reasonably competent, the overwhelming majority of raid content is a gear check. Gear comes from time investment. If people are patching their gear together then of course they'll have problems but when people are fully geared from the previous tier, mechanics are an insignificant fraction of what it takes to clear raid content.

    Time = Gear
    Gear = Time

    PvP gear is far greater time, but guaranteed returns.
    PvE gear is more of a gamble but the only hurdle is finding a guild that mirrors your level of dedication.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    We’re generally happy with the current state of Warriors and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them.
    R8 Rogue
    R8 Warrior

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mo0trix View Post
    PvP grinding can be done solo.

    You're getting nothing out of any expert dungeon or raid solo though.

    Automatically that makes it easier obtain, unless your guild raids 10 hours a day.
    False.

    LFD is T2 and slow T3 plaques on demand. PvP uses the same system and no, there's no "solo" play either.

    LFD group sucks? You get slower loot and progression.
    Warfront group sucks? You get half the progression.

    Same exact system.

    Only the absolute best gear in the game requires raiding and its above any pvp gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    We’re generally happy with the current state of Warriors and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them.
    R8 Rogue
    R8 Warrior

  11. #11
    Rift Master KaiHeilos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    @KaiHelios: You are overlooking some things. Regardless of having to learn fights and be reasonably competent, the overwhelming majority of raid content is a gear check. Gear comes from time investment. If people are patching their gear together then of course they'll have problems but when people are fully geared from the previous tier, mechanics are an insignificant fraction of what it takes to clear raid content.
    Of course you need the gear, but you also need 19 other people, the knowledge of how the fight works and the ability to work within the boundaries set out by the encounter.

    To highlight the amount of effort they require:

    If you try to zerg a raid boss with no effort or skill, you wipe, repeatedly, and get nothing.
    If you zerg a warfront, you'll probbaly win and even if you don't, you still get rewarded for it.

    Even assuming a highly competent raid, you're also ignoring the fact that no raid group has cleared HK yet, and a large majority of guilds probably haven't gotten further than the first boss. This means they will be getting between 3 and 15 drops, per week. Those drops are shared between 20 people. You're getting an average of 0.5 items a week. You need 14 drops.

    People had r8 in, I believe, two weeks thanks to escalation. That's a full set of gear, which from what I understand is superior to the Hammerknell drops.

    If you're LUCKY, you might get a weapon from hammerknell in the first couple of weeks, chances are, 75% of that raid wont be that lucky. So your argument about getting a superior weapon is a low chance based on RNG. Not exactly reliable.
    Last edited by KaiHeilos; 08-23-2011 at 03:23 PM.

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser Slacka's Avatar
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    Quite an amusing read. Either a troll post, or simple misunderstanding of how much time the pve gear takes to obtain.

    Simple fact is that many people are already running around in full R8 sets right now, and have been for over a week. Compare that to the speed people are obtaining gear in Hammerknell, i would be suprised if a single person worldwide (other than maybe the odd tank, or other person that get priority geared) has more than one or two items yet (personally i have none).

    You use the example of a weapon, well so far my guild has cleared 5/11 bosses in hammerknell, and we have had just 2 melee weapons drop for us in the time the zone has been open, we are hardly all running around with these things (we seem to be pro at getting cleric tank loot...).

    Even if you count plaque items in this, the cheapest of those costs 50 plaques, and you get 3 plaques a kill. As such looking at the average progress rate of the guilds in the top 25 in the rankings the absolute vast majority of these guilds will currently have in the region of just 35 tokens per member, and everyone that isnt ranked significantly less. In fact i would also be very suprised if anyone worldwide has more than 1 set piece so far.

    The comparison i can make is that anyone that puts in 4-5 hours a night pvping, in comparison to the 4-5 hours a night the average progression guild raids is going to be fully R8 geared within a few weeks, wheras even a guild that kills all 10 token dropping bosses in Hammerknell (and remember, even the top ranked guild WW has only cleared 8 of these so far) would be generating just 30 tokens a week, which means us PVE'ers will need an absolute minimum of 16 weeks (4 months) to complete our equivalent full armor set. (that is 490 tokens)

    Please also note here that i am not trying to say or claim that it is easy, or doesnt take some time to get the full pvp set, however claiming its it is slower to get the pvp gear than the pve gear is pure ignorance.
    Last edited by Slacka; 08-23-2011 at 03:30 PM.

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    Ascendant Landru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    Please describe what evidence you have to arrive at this conclusion. Also list your guild's current pve progression, how much time they spend raiding, and how long the same members have been raiding.
    Here's the evidence:

    Log into warfronts. Get favor/prestige whether you win or lose, are active or passive, doing something or standing there.

    That's it. That is the entire path to PvP gear and ranks in this game. Time. Absolutely nothing else.

    This allows me to arrive at the conclusion that PvP ranks and gear are substantially easier to acquire.
    Last edited by Landru; 08-23-2011 at 03:45 PM.
    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Landru View Post
    Here's the evidence:

    Log into warfronts. Get favor/prestige whether you win or lose, are active or passive, doing something or standing there.

    That's it. That is the entire path to PvP gear and ranks in this game. Time. Absolutely nothing else.

    This allows me to arrive at the conclusion that PvP ranks and gear are substantially easier to acquire.
    i agree pvp is something anyone can do regardless of guild or skill level. it is just a time sink. raiding is also a time sink. BUT not everyone has the skills to get a raid position in a high end raiding guild. high end raiding does take time. it always will.

    what we are mostly looking at is the attainablity of items pvp vs pve at the high end. everyone can get pvp items. just some faster than others. not everyone can get high end raiding pve items because they lack the skill to do so. if you think everyone can raid and get into hammerknell before the level cap is raised then i have something for free you badly need. it is called a "clue"

  15. #15
    Shield of Telara
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    I just want to make sure we're on the same page here in saying that I'm not speaking of time to acquire relic gear. I'm speaking of rank8 vs intro HK, which is what R8 stats are based on.

    The max rank gear and the intro raid gear were "supposed" to have a roughly equal tim requirement to attain. In previous content the pvp gear probably took longer to obtain. They overcompensated and made it far faster, but reduced it more recently.

    Further, I think you guys are only looking at this in terms of days, and weeks, and completely ignoring the hours.

    People you see in R8 already more than likely spent no less than 20 hours during every bonus weekend maxing out their prestige/hr.

    How many total hours do you really spend raiding to get the gear that the first few bosses drop? What type of trend does this follow once you have the first boss or two on farm versus the pvp grind that is completely linear?

    Compare apples to apples here, and let me just remind you guys the scenario was a maxed r6(who are the token r8's you're seeing now) versus a full T3 geared player? How many replying to this even have full T3 or are in HK at the moment?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    We’re generally happy with the current state of Warriors and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them.
    R8 Rogue
    R8 Warrior

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