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Thread: PvP Gear: More time to attain than PvE, so why the complaining?

  1. #181
    Ascendant Oggiefishier's Avatar
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    As for the ease of obtaining gear? Try this... lose every pvp activity....you still get that top gear... now lose every high end group pve activity....your still sitting in greens and blues...
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  2. #182
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    If you add up the total time required for pvp favor and ranks, it is far greater than the time spent raiding assuming a full, competent PvE group.(important factor)

    This system seems more than fair, but there is a reason some players take issue with both systems.
    I don't have a problem with the system, but there are a couple of things you aren't taking into account.


    1. Raids have lock outs. Where as PvP doesn't.

    2. It's entirely possible to fail/afk your way to rank 8 gear without winning a single match in any WF ever, where it's impossible to get the same gear if you can't defeat the bosses in the raid. To make things somewhat similar Trion would have to make some sort of code that if you X boss wiped you Y amount of times you'd suddenly get the loot from the boss and the ability to go on to the next boss.

    That said I don't have a problem with the two different paths to get loot, but on some level I understand why PvErs feel that the PvP system of getting gear where you don't actually have to ever succeed at doing anything is sort of borked.

  3. #183
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    As for "ease."

    It's simple:

    In PvE, A 200-300 hours solo grind for HK gear is unacceptable from the developers' point of view, and that's why it doesn't exist. You can cry and whine and QQ and jump up and down, but they won't allow you to get gear solo that would rival gear that you can get in a raid through PvE.

    In PvP, however, somehow it's okay. This is despite the fact that the R6-R8 grind requires no more coordination and/or skill and/or knowledge than a random T1, if that.

    This is a double standard, made worse by the fact that PvP gear actually does work in PvE, which has led to the current situation, in which PvErs are solo grinding PvP to progress in PvE. Hilarious.
    Last edited by Etadanik; 08-25-2011 at 09:46 AM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etadanik View Post
    As for "ease."

    It's simple:

    In PvE, A 200-300 hours solo grind for HK gear is unacceptable from the developers' point of view, and that's why it doesn't exist. You can cry and whine and QQ and jump up and down, but they won't allow you to get gear solo that would rival gear that you can get in a raid through PvE.

    In PvP, however, somehow it's okay. This is despite the fact that the R6-R8 grind requires no more coordination and/or skill and/or knowledge than a random T1, if that.

    This is a double standard, made worse by the fact that PvP gear actually does work in PvE, which has led to the current situation, in which PvErs are solo grinding PvP to progress in PvE. Hilarious.
    Wait, so a 200-300 hour solo grind for HK gear is unexceptable... but if players are willing to grind for 200-300 hours they can get HK level gear.

    It seems the problem you have isn't that Trion has made it possible to get HK level gear possible with 200-300 hours of solo "work", but rather that you don't particularly care for what one has to do for it.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etadanik View Post
    There's plenty of problems with it.

    First, it forces progression guilds to force their members to PvP or gimp themselves on the speed of progression. As someone above pointed out, people in R8 gear have a decisive advantage in HK than people without, not the least because it takes 30+ weeks in HK to obtain the same sort of gear that you can get in <2-3 weeks of hard grinding PvP.

    Second, it lowers the incentive to raid for guilds below HK. PvE is and has fundamentally been about progressing your gear. If you can get gear that is better than T1 raid instances (GSB and RoS) solo queueing in warfronts... Yeah.
    This second point, I can definitely see. A couple of the people in my guild (which was formed specifically for pve raiding) very quickly got pvp 7-8 gear. There is literally nothing in our GSB and RoS runs that would improve their sets. But as a guild we've not even finished RoS yet, and will continue clearing GSB for a while before we do HK. For that rank 8 person in the raid, the dkp just piles up. Effectively that gives them priority on the pieces that they really do need, the hit/focus stuff, but mostly their response to boss-down loot is like the way people treat blue-items in 5-mans -- don't even consider to look at it. A loot-oriented player would become bored, quickly.

    The first point is one of choice and availability. My guild has only one person below the age of 20, and most are over 30. A lot only play a couple days per week and have barbecues, dumb things our spouse drags us to, and other summer activities that compete with gaming time. Me, I really don't care for mini-game style pvp. So I'd rather spend non-raid nights doing other stuff. When the weather turns, especially if they add some siege-like open-world pvp, I'll totally finish ranking up.

    Your speed of advancement is your choice, particularly with PvE. The mobs actually get easier over time in most MMOs, and they completely don't care if it took you longer to get the gear. It's not an open-world setting, so it's not relevant that another guild has better overall stats.

  6. #186
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    If you can't see what's wrong with forcing people to PvP to PvE, especially given the reason for splitting focus/hit and valor in the first place, then I don't know what to tell you.
    Last edited by Etadanik; 08-25-2011 at 09:59 AM.

  7. #187
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    PvE get Relics, PvP do not. At the end of the day, you get better stuff than us, quit whining.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaiHeilos View Post
    Here's a source explaining the number. Would you like me to search the forums and find every other time this number has been used?


    That's possible, but again the thread was designed to discuss the timeframe for a top end player to get the gear from the release of Hammerknell and Rank 8, thus the progression of future guilds is irrelevant to the debate as put forward by the OP. As for current raiding guilds, if you're not raiding while the guild is working on progression, they wont be letting you in any time soon when they're farming either.
    Just for reference, the number calculation you are using is extremely flawed. The average win in BG is somewhere in the 800-1000 range, the loss 400-600. Queues are usually close to instant for one faction in a battlegroup, but 5-15mins on the other side, and this doesn't change during primetime, 300 guardians vs 900 defiants (numbers I am pulling out of my ###) means that the one side will get in 3 warfronts in the time it takes the other to get in one.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etadanik View Post
    If you can't see what's wrong with forcing people to PvP to PvE, especially given the reason for splitting focus/hit and valor in the first place, then I don't know what to tell you.
    There is no forcing. If you decide you want to do it because it's an advantage to do so great. It's no different then "forcing" people to farm plat so they have all the best stuff money can buy.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    The one most important fact that remains is this:Neither way is "easy" or "free" or everyone would have that gear. People who say that of either form of gearing are always behind the curve in both pvp and pve progression.
    This statement is factually incorrect.

    PvP gear is easy. All it requires is time (thus it is not "free", assuming you are there for it. Technically you can get it without being at your PC). You can AFK and lose every match, and you will get it.

    PvE gear requires a number of geared, competent players to acquire. Not 20 players, not even 10 players (eight-manning DH in raid gear is fairly trivial), but some number greater than one. It also requires success. If you lose a thousand matches of Codex, you will wind up with PvP gear. If you wipe a thousand times on a raid boss, you wind up with nothing.

    Thus PvP gear is substantially easier to acquire than PvE gear. It may require a larger time investment to receive it in a timely manner, but time involved is not a measure of difficulty, it is only a measure of time involved.

    Inarguably, some people get carried in PvE.

    EVERYONE gets carried in PvP.
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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    The issue first starts with the devs actually. When they introduced Valor gear in the betas they said PvE gear > in PvE and PvP > In PvP. They specifically stated also that this was because they did not expect players to grind both types of content. Each would get you started in the other, but they would be better in their own "world" so to speak. When u make a categorical statement and then appear to change it with no comment it is going to cause issues.

    That is the origin of my issue. I expect devs to spin, prevaricate, etc. However when devs make clear specific statements I expect them to fulfill them OR I expect them to in an equally clear and specific manner explain the reason for the change. Trion has, thus far, been very good at communicating changes and directions. It is one of the reasons why I think here they are struggling for a solution. Very often in games like this they look at PvP and PvE in seperate bubbles and when stuff like this rears its ugly little head they are initially at a loss. Raising the issue though eventually forces one of two things in a case like this; a change at best or at worst a statement explaining why things are remaining the way they are.
    Makes sense. I agree, but Im sure if it was easy to develop and balance a game there would be a lot more successful ones out there ;) My biggest thing I can say to all this nonsensical boo-hooing is none of the content is exclusive, its on YOU as the gamer to play the game as is, and get on the forums, or other means, to make CONSTRUCTIVE arguments of why you dont like something. This gives the devs an inside look at what people want and makes it easier to deliver the wanted content within their means and time schedules. From the interviews on podcasts and articles Ive read they ARE listening, but they know that the biggest majority that plays is NOT on these boards, although the people who do post are the most vocal, and that they take into account ALL aspects of the game. From what Ive heard the community managers and patch team leaders say, is that the faster and easiest way to voice a change you'd like is the in game feedback feature (Im thinking they say this to alleviate some forum drama haha). Also, I don't use twitter, but the one dev said they check that often and is another easy way. Im sure its a pain in the *** to sift through threads of 20+ pages of trolling, crying, and name calling as a developer.

    I personally like that there are a few avenues to grab worthy gear. PvE, PvP, saga quest, or craft. It breaks up the monotony of; log on at 6, raid, wipe, wipe, wipe, kill boss, wipe some more, 2 people get a piece.

    But I do agree PvE gear should be best in PvE, and PvP to PvP. But ultimately, I'm sure if you never set foot into a WF, your gear is not gonna be such a massive handicap that you aren't competitive in a raid group.
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  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    Sigh...

    Thank you to the few people who comprehend my post and understand what I'm getting at instead of splitting hairs and whining or trying to twist the facts..

    Very important to point out once again:
    PVP gear IS NOT best in slot. It's better than T3 plaque gear but the HK plaque set with the synergy crystal is FAR better. If you keep bringing up the time to obtain plaques for full HK set you are ignoring the fact that the HK set is the best armor in the game

    Secondly, PvE gear CAN be used in PvP and often is. PvE players enjoy a huge advantage in PvP every time a new raid comes out if they are in a good guild and down the first few bosses right away. Did you know they pushed the rank 7/8 out early because of this fact? Go look at the pvp forums at the amount of people who were being one/two-shot by people who had the new HK weapons the first week it was out.

    Finally, you are just trolling if you speak in absolutes because full PvP gear has ZERO hit. So don't say it can be used in PvE while the converse is not true. Further, valor is useless in PvE while Hit DOES work in PvP to counter all mitigation..
    Agree, yet again. Im sure if I dedicated all my time, made my way to R7/8, and showed up to a raiding guild in full R7/8 gear, they would laugh in my face when I want to get into a raid group.

    And on the same token, if I wanted to get into a true PvP guild (premades/world PvP) in my T3 gear I would get laughed at.

    Saying R8 is better than T3 is a bit far fetched. PvP gear at that level generally has a lot of valor and favors one or two stats, and has no hit. The new system of having to get all the previous ranked gear to trade for higher ones set my progression back a little bit even. Also, there is NO tank PvP gear. And you wouldnt go PvP seriously in PvE tank gear, although some do somewhat effectively. But most clerics/warriors/rogues that PvP in tank gear are about as effective as a sponge and get ignored while there healers get focused.
    Last edited by Ravingbeotch; 08-25-2011 at 11:23 AM.
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oggiefishier View Post
    As for the ease of obtaining gear? Try this... lose every pvp activity....you still get that top gear... now lose every high end group pve activity....your still sitting in greens and blues...
    True, but if you are loosing PvE that bad, you shouldn't be raiding. I was full epics after a week of hitting 50. So sitting in greens and blues....then you're playing the wrong game.
    PvP and Warfront Forum Anthem
    PvP whining never ends...
    It just goes on and on my friends...
    "Something killed me in a warfront and I don't know what it was...
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  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravingbeotch View Post
    Agree, yet again. Im sure if I dedicated all my time, made my way to R7/8, and showed up to a raiding guild in full R7/8 gear, they would laugh in my face when I want to get into a raid group.

    And on the same token, if I wanted to get into a true PvP guild (premades/world PvP) in my T3 gear I would get laughed at.

    Saying R8 is better than T3 is a bit far fetched. PvP gear at that level generally has a lot of valor and favors one or two stats, and has no hit. The new system of having to get all the previous ranked gear to trade for higher ones set my progression back a little bit even. Also, there is NO tank PvP gear. And you wouldnt go PvP seriously in PvE tank gear, although some do somewhat effectively. But most clerics/warriors/rogues that PvP in tank gear are about as effective as a sponge and get ignored while there healers get focused.
    4-piece R6 (with Synergy Crystal) is FAR better than T3 gear for most non-tank builds. 4-piece R8 completely blows T3 away, and competes very favorably with 4-piece Hammerknell synergies for many builds.

    Shoulders, Chest, Legs, Boots. These four slots can be PvP gear with absolutely no negative impact to PvE stats, because hit is only on right-side items, Helm, and Gloves.

    Piece-for-piece, R6 gear is slightly worse than T3 gear (but definitively better than T2). However, the R6 synergy crystal effectively gives each piece 31.25 more Attack/Spell power, which is a HUGE boost to the stats over the equivalent PvE pieces. The extra HP is also a factor in any fight with large unavoidable raid damage where every little bit of HP counts.
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  15. #195
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    I'm not going to read through 20 pages of this, suffice to say this topic is nonsense.

    First off, best in slot hk equipment is probably harder to get than the pvp equipment by the shear time consuming nature of progression + organizing 20 skilled individuals as opposed to only needing yourself and no win requirement + mark of ascension drop rate coupled with the lockout of one week, and needing to get a large amount of the marks before the synergy crystal plus gear becomes significatlyeffective. This is evidenced by just how many ppl are running around in pvp gear already, and still really no one has the hk armor buildups. Its not like after each hk boss you down he drops 20 pieces of gear and everyone in the raid gets something. Its time consuming.

    BUT even if that weren't so and pvp gear is more time consuming so what? What exactly is the point of this? If pvp gear = more time consuming it should be best in slot in everything? Maybe the murdantix spawn mount should be best in slot....

    The itemization this patch, in my opinion, is one of the worst gameplay mistakes since rift came out :/ and not just because of time spent acquiring the pieces. Not only has it created a massive gear disparity between rank1-8 early on in the game so newcomers can barely develop skillwise in pvp since they can't tell what works or not, and makes pvp more about unskill based advantages prior to the fight instead of success determined by skill, but it also is the bane of prehk raid incentive for much of the armor buildup, and forces pve shards to pvp, which should be an optional gameplay aspect as designed by the choice for shards. It also indirectly nerfs all raid instances by massive sp increases this patch. Not just pvp too but adding crafting gear and 5man expert dungeon drops as prehk BiS. If you like pvp that's kwl, but it shouldn't be a forced aspect of the game to remain competitively viable in raiding. The progressions ideally should remain separate.
    Last edited by Inixia; 08-25-2011 at 12:08 PM.

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