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Thread: R6 to R8 Warfront Grind - Basic Calculations

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    Rift Disciple Tenet's Avatar
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    Default R6 to R8 Warfront Grind - Basic Calculations

    Given: 5k per win, 2.5k per loss, 900k from R6 to R8
    With 50% win rate the average is 3.75k per match. ~240 matches total.
    Assuming 8 minutes per match average (including queue) it takes 1920 minutes or 32 hours. (This is a rate of 28.1k prestige/hour)

    With a win rate of 66% the total is ~220 matches or ~29.3 hours.
    With a win rate of 75% the total is ~205 matches or ~27.3 hours.
    A rate of 33K P/Hour.


    Compare this to "normal" gains, without any bonuses:

    1.5K prestige per 8 minute Warfront with a 100% win rate is 80 hours...
    With a 75% win rate that number increases to 91.5 hours.
    With a win rate of 50% that number increases to 120 hours.

    For an MMORPG player an average session is ~ 3 hours a night - it's easy to see that with the regular rewards it will take 30 days.

    Playing this weekend and spending 4 hours on Thursday and Friday and 8 hours on Saturday and Sunday you total 24 hours of play time. With non stop WF and 50% win rate you'll cover about 2/3 of what you need. This is the average for the community - some people will be faster, some will be slower.

    The approximate total per-character is 200+ hours of grinding to go from Level 1 to level 50 Rank 8.
    It's significantly better for PvE Raiding, but still much higher then the initial leveling.

    This is how Trion and Rift mislead consumers - they come into the game expecting less grind according to Reviews Sites and comments, often told the leveling in the game is "very fast" - and are then hammered with the several times higher cost of the "hidden grind".

    It's not surprising that the temptation to bypass this system is huge.
    Last edited by Tenet; 08-23-2011 at 12:36 PM.
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    5k a win, 8 min per warfront?

    something's not right here.

    not right at all
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodbourne View Post
    All I see is your team gettin rolled but managing to win anyway.

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    thank you.
    ive already given up..roll on GW2.
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    Your estimate of 5K prestige per win seems way too high. Maybe during the first weekend before they turned down the bonus.

    I don't have exact numbers but I want to say you get around 1:1 prestige and favor during the bonus now, which puts a win at only around 2500 max. The prestige bonus is what, 900 for a win?
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  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Tenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by generatedname View Post
    5k a win, 8 min per warfront?

    something's not right here.

    not right at all
    The numbers are for the First Weekend or the upcoming where rewards are Doubled overall and Doubled for Escalation Whitefall.
    The gains after that with the Whitefall bonus were ~2.2-2.7 per win, about half, as expected.
    8 minute Whitefall, including the queue, is about right on a well populated cluster, no?
    Typically the winning side is smart enough to not drag it out.

    It's easy to correct since the minutes/match just get multiplied into the equation - double the time per match and you double the time required to grind.
    Prestige rewards are a bit trickier to modify, as they are factored in based on the win%. Still basic arithmetic.
    Last edited by Tenet; 08-23-2011 at 12:47 PM.
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    Champion of Telara Hethroin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenet View Post
    Given: 5k per win, 2.5k per loss, 900k from R6 to R8
    With 50% win rate the average is 3.75k per match. ~240 matches total.
    Assuming 8 minutes per match average (including queue) it takes 1920 minutes or 32 hours. (This is a rate of 28.1k prestige/hour)

    With a win rate of 66% the total is ~220 matches or ~29.3 hours.
    With a win rate of 75% the total is ~205 matches or ~27.3 hours.
    A rate of 33K P/Hour.


    Compare this to "normal" gains, without any bonuses:

    1.5K prestige per 8 minute Warfront with a 100% win rate is 80 hours...
    With a 75% win rate that number increases to 91.5 hours.
    With a win rate of 50% that number increases to 120 hours.

    For an MMORPG player an average session is ~ 3 hours a night - it's easy to see that with the regular rewards it will take 30 days.

    Playing this weekend and spending 4 hours on Thursday and Friday and 8 hours on Saturday and Sunday you total 24 hours of play time. With non stop WF and 50% win rate you'll cover about 2/3 of what you need. This is the average for the community - some people will be faster, some will be slower.

    The approximate total per-character is 200+ hours of grinding to go from Level 1 to level 50 Rank 8.
    It's significantly better for PvE Raiding, but still much higher then the initial leveling.

    This is how Trion and Rift mislead consumers - they come into the game expecting less grind according to Reviews Sites and comments, often told the leveling in the game is "very fast" - and are then hammered with the several times higher cost of the "hidden grind".

    It's not surprising that the temptation to bypass this system is huge.

    I am thoroughly confused. Is the complaint here that it is too fast to get to P8 or too slow?

    Because 30k prestige per hour is not slow when you need 450k for next rank.
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    Rift Disciple -HellsWrath-'s Avatar
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    Indeed, seriously flawed base numbers in your calculations.

    Even assuming a 50% win rate (which is quite an assumption), average win prestige I'm seeing on the Escalation map (meaning with a sizable bonus) is just under 2K. It varies between 1800 and 2400 or so, but those are also approximated values.

    Additionally, I would put the match length a good amount longer than 8 minutes when you add in queue time.

    Honestly, due to the nature of warfronts and how everyone's experience will be different, correct calculations would need a HUGE tolerance in completion times going from R6 to R8. But it would undoubtedly be longer than your estimation.

    Edit: Saw that you were completely basing off of the bonus weekend in addition to escalation maps. You'll never see that much time with the bonus that you should base a completion calculation off of it. Now I'm wondering what your point even is. No one should get end-game pvp gear easily. That would cause many to feel as though they had "finished" the game and lose interest.
    Last edited by -HellsWrath-; 08-23-2011 at 12:51 PM.
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  8. #8
    Prophet of Telara
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    MMO character development takes time? No way! The grind is nowhere near as bad as getting to r6 was with Rift 1.0 favor calculations. If you want combat on a completely equal setting there are FPS and team arena games out there.
    Last edited by Seether; 08-23-2011 at 12:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    MMO character development takes time? No way! The grind is nowhere near as bad as getting to r6 was with Rift 1.0 favor calculations. If you want combat on a completely equal setting there are FPS and team arena games out there.
    which most people do, and will leave rift because of. we are just trying to bring this to light for trion ;)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodbourne View Post
    All I see is your team gettin rolled but managing to win anyway.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    Regarding your "hidden grind" remark, if you could progress through an MMO and reach the point where you've "finished" everything there is to do, there isn't much incentive to keep playing. MMOs are all grind, in every aspect of them. Always, all the time. All grind.

    The key is how it's perceived and how well it's disguised.

    If you don't like PvP, it's going to feel very grindy to you. PvE feels grindy to me because I want to cut myself after an hour of it.

    The event dailies right now are a good example of a well-disguised grind. You're doing a little bit day by day to gradually get some sort of reward, and just when you're finishing getting all of those rewards, a new set of quests and rewards pop up.

    All grinding.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by generatedname View Post
    which most people do, and will leave rift because of. we are just trying to bring this to light for trion ;)
    You are playing the wrong genre then, sorry?
    Last edited by Seether; 08-23-2011 at 12:57 PM.

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple Tenet's Avatar
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    The 5k/match is based on the FIRST WEEKEND or QUAD WEEKEND. Sorry, I should have made it clearer.
    The NORMAL gains are calculated as 1.5k/match and are also shown.

    You could have noticed it on your own, even without this clarification... >_>

    It's not a complaint or argument, but attempt at a factual evaluation of Grind.

    There's not such thing as "450k to next rank".
    R6 to R7 is 400K exactly. R7 to R8 is 500k. 500K + 400K = 900K
    It takes 900,000 or 900K prestige to go from Rank Six (R6) to Rank Eight (R8).

    At 1.5K prestige a win, and 0.75K prestige a loss with 50% win rate (statistical average) it takes 800 matches. 8 minutes match average = ~107 hours to go from R6 to R8.
    The per hour rate is ~8K prestige/hour. Increasing the time/match directly increases the hours required.


    This is "improved" by cramming your grind into the weekends, and further improved by cramming it into a "WF Grind Weekend" like the "First" one mentioned.
    Is it acceptable to spend 32 hours on a Weekend doing the same ****ing Warfront again and again? Personal question. For me it's pretty terrible, but there is no alternative.
    Last edited by Tenet; 08-23-2011 at 01:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    You are playing the wrong genre then, sorry?
    there are obviously a lot of people unhappy with the current grind state of rift. "next gen mmo" was supposed to be at least some what different. you can't claim to completely change the genre then go with grind mode...

    im playing rift until my sub expires, only because all games ever made will be coming out in november, wtf is that, and we'll see if they can win me for 1 more month (sub's up early october)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodbourne View Post
    All I see is your team gettin rolled but managing to win anyway.

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    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by generatedname View Post
    there are obviously a lot of people unhappy with the current grind state of rift. "next gen mmo" was supposed to be at least some what different. you can't claim to completely change the genre then go with grind mode...

    im playing rift until my sub expires, only because all games ever made will be coming out in november, wtf is that, and we'll see if they can win me for 1 more month (sub's up early october)
    There has to be a grind because there is no substance to Rift PvP. There is no reason to keep playing the warfronts or doing PvP Rifts after you are fully geared aside from the limited bragging rights you could get. There are no rankings, there are no guild cities to defend or destroy. You get your gear and do the exact same thing you were doing before but with no carrot any longer.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Tenet's Avatar
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    Possible corrections (can't edit beyond 5minutes):

    At 1.5K prestige a win, and 0.75K prestige a loss with 50% win rate (statistical average) it takes 800 matches. 8 minutes match average = ~107 hours to go from R6 to R8.
    The per hour rate is ~8K prestige/hour. Increasing the time/match directly increases the hours required.



    Re: "Not your genre":

    The genre is Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. Where exactly does that list the dumb grind?
    Am I playing the Right Genre, or are you accepting mistreatment as the norm because you're that bad?

    I played Subspace, one of the first graphic MMO games, it required 0 hours of grind to get the same gear as your opponents.

    I played Ultima Online on a free shard where it took me 24 hours of server-legal botting to get a maxed avatar. (My first MMORPG)
    I played GuildWars GvG where it took my first PvE character 40 hours to max-level and unlock a competitive build, and half as much for the alts.
    I played Age of Conan where the incredibly boring grind reached ~90 hours for level 80. (Quit before they added the PvP gear grind)
    I played Warhammer Online - but cancelled out because leveling was boring.
    I played Rift that advertised "no level grind" and provided that for the most part - until the hidden grind was revealed.

    R8 added over 100 hours to the grind requirement of the game. Do you not see a problem?

    Just because I prefer PvP / Non-Grind Raid and prefer to not spend more then 3 hours a night on average doesn't mean that MMORPG is the "Wrong Genre".

    Why do I keep playing an MMO? Because each fight against another person is different, if the game allows enough variety and balance. Because Raiding content can be fun when tackled with friends.
    Gear threadmills are the REPLACEMENT of Content. It's not surprising that R8 gear didn't even look different from R6. It takes a lot of money to pay an Artist to create a new piece, or get a team of designers to create real new content. It's much cheaper to recycle graphics while incrementing the stats.

    The fact that some of you can't see the difference, and accept the abuse, is just sad. I pity you.
    Last edited by Tenet; 08-23-2011 at 01:21 PM.
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