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Thread: R6 to R8 Warfront Grind - Basic Calculations

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corian View Post
    It's ALL GRIND. That you're either too weak-willed or stupid to notice that this is the same game you've been playing for damn near a decade now isn't my problem. People hide from the word grind. Avoid it like it's something bad. It's not. It's the nature of all MMOs, all the time. It is all grind! It is always grind! It always has been grind, it always will be grind!

    But if you have fun doing it, it never gets old. And that's the key. If you think it's a grind, then your problem is that you don't like the gameplay. That means stop playing the game! If you don't like the gameplay after 1 hour, you won't like it after 20. That's why I don't do and couldn't care less about PvE raiding and its rewards. But I love PvP and it never gets old for me. They're BOTH still grinds!

    But doing the same thing over and over again isn't fun, you say? You go to sleep every day, but sleeping in is still fantastic. You eat every day, and that burrito is as good as the first time you ever had one. You get laid however often you do, but you're still looking forward to 3 months from now when she stops feeding you the "not in the mood" excuse, aren't you? Projecting what?

    So you can have fun doing things over and over again, and everything ever done in an MMO is grind. And if you enjoy playing MMOs, then guess what that means?

    You enjoy grinding.

    And you always have.
    Let me define grind for you since you put a lot of thought in it. Grind is something you hate doing in order to get somewhere to have fun. Eating is good, as long as you don't have to do anything in order to eat except paying for it, ****ing is good as long as you don't have to do anything boring in order to get it, work is good as long as you don't have to do anything that you don't like to get paid, and so on. If you can have games where all you do is have fun, there's no grind.

    Also, grind is something that most of people perceive as boring, mindnumbing, pointless and unecessary. If some people like torture in games it still means it's grind.

    Grind is bad, fun is good.

  2. #32
    Rift Disciple Tenet's Avatar
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    I don't enjoy grinding and never have.

    I play MMOs because they allow me to roam around a map and kill people, or go into a warfront and brag about killing them on a fair playing field. There's a thrill and adrenaline in the fight, even with a simplistic combat system.

    When a game allows evolving competition it's like letting players create content - you encounter something new every day that keeps things fresh and interesting. Players are harder to predict then AI. It's more rewarding when you successfully manipulate a person instead of exploiting a script.

    For PvE that means it's only fun until you solve the puzzle, and prove you can solve it reliably. Then it gets increasingly more boring, and getting gear is just a small fraction of the fun.

    The problem with Rift right now is that it forces us to play the least liked map in compressed long sessions - which creates a feeling of Grind. The map doesn't really allow for much creative play - it's more or less solved, especially with the carefree pug factor.

    If you like a game only to grind then go play a KMMO with no level cap. You'll surely enjoy the months of killing the same IMP to get from 98 to 99.
    Last edited by Tenet; 08-23-2011 at 02:18 PM.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenet View Post
    Possible corrections (can't edit beyond 5minutes):

    At 1.5K prestige a win, and 0.75K prestige a loss with 50% win rate (statistical average) it takes 800 matches. 8 minutes match average = ~107 hours to go from R6 to R8.
    The per hour rate is ~8K prestige/hour. Increasing the time/match directly increases the hours required.



    Re: "Not your genre":

    The genre is Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. Where exactly does that list the dumb grind?
    Am I playing the Right Genre, or are you accepting mistreatment as the norm because you're that bad?

    I played Subspace, one of the first graphic MMO games, it required 0 hours of grind to get the same gear as your opponents.

    I played Ultima Online on a free shard where it took me 24 hours of server-legal botting to get a maxed avatar. (My first MMORPG)
    I played GuildWars GvG where it took my first PvE character 40 hours to max-level and unlock a competitive build, and half as much for the alts.
    I played Age of Conan where the incredibly boring grind reached ~90 hours for level 80. (Quit before they added the PvP gear grind)
    I played Warhammer Online - but cancelled out because leveling was boring.
    I played Rift that advertised "no level grind" and provided that for the most part - until the hidden grind was revealed.
    Age of Conan I was probably the quickest game to level max that I've seen. Pre-nerf cats in Purple Lotus Swamp let players go from 20-80 in about 28 hours or so. You just needed a G15 and you were set.

    Warhammer was the most fun PvP game that I've played in a long time. That game I just did warfronts over and over till I got RR 70 and finally quit when Sands of Time came out, among other things that plagued warhammer.

    I think what people don't realize is that with the exception of hammerknell, the PvP gear is simply better then the PvE gear. So really players are regulated to running hammerknell and PvPing for gear. Trion only gave us 4 warfronts to play for PvP and made a system that bots and afkers get the same amount of points as those doing a majority of the work in PvP. It is unfortunate that you cannot PvP without favor gear, but c'est la vie.

    Now I wait for the next MMO and hope that it gives me something to play for more then 4-5 months.

  4. #34
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    Yeah I agree the assumptions are too optimistic. You need to cut the 5000 prestige/win in half or more, and the 8 min/wf is way too low especially given queue times.

    I would assume something like 1200/wf (assuming 50% win and 50% loss) and 20 mins/wf. Thats more like 3600 prestige/hour.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceol View Post
    Yeah I agree the assumptions are too optimistic. You need to cut the 5000 prestige/win in half or more, and the 8 min/wf is way too low especially given queue times.

    I would assume something like 1200/wf (assuming 50% win and 50% loss) and 20 mins/wf. Thats more like 3600 prestige/hour.
    The minutes/match depends on whether you're on the underpopulated side or not.
    So the average would be higher, you're right.

    The 1200/WF will get doubled with Escalation and was doubled again during the First Weekend.

    But I agree, it can go as low as 3600 prestige / hour for someone on an the overpopulated side of a server during the weekday. At that rate it takes 250 hours of WF grind to reach R8 from R6.

    Even my best estimates are a terrible grind, but it can be far worse.
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  6. #36
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    These calculations completely ignore the daily/weekly PvP quests which add up to a very substantial percentage of a casual players total prestige gain. If you are a casual player and you are not doing the dailies at every opportunity you are shooting yourself in the foot.

  7. #37
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    Man, I remember back when PvP was for fun. There was no grind associated with it. You were not encouraged to PvP for better PvP gear. You were encouraged to PvP because you're going up against an opponent who is like you. A player. With a brain. That can react and analyze situations. A different experience from PvE. Now all you're doing is grinding for gear and then killing people.

    Now, I understand the purpose of PvP specific gear. That person that dedicates his time to PvP doesn't want to get demolished by a raider who is killing time in a Warfront. Of course the raider will have better gear, and thus do better in PvP as a result. It happened in WoW.

    But what gets me is the complain of grind in an MMO. The game is 5 months old. Nearly 6. MMOs are supposed to be games that you play forever. If you are able to hit the top in 6 months, then what needs to be done is that grind should be DOUBLED. That's right. Doubled. Instead of this:

    1.5K prestige per 8 minute Warfront with a 100% win rate is 80 hours...
    With a 75% win rate that number increases to 91.5 hours.
    With a win rate of 50% that number increases to 120 hours.
    It should be this:

    1.5K prestige per 8 minute Warfront with a 100% win rate is 160 hours...
    With a 75% win rate that number increases to 183 hours.
    With a win rate of 50% that number increases to 240 hours.

    That is more reasonable for an MMO. Why do people wish to reach the top of character development in a month or so? You are playing an MMO. There is a grind involved. Get used to it or find another game.

  8. #38
    Rift Disciple Ryadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenet View Post
    The genre is Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. Where exactly does that list the dumb grind?

    I played Rift that advertised "no level grind" and provided that for the most part - until the hidden grind was revealed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindin...ideo_gaming%29

    Read that. May help describe to you what "grind" means, because clearly you have no clue.

    "No level grind"? Well they lied to you, because ALL MMOs that have a level up mechanic (99% of them) contain a grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    There is a fine line between grinding and questing.
    Whoever added that was brilliant. This is correct. The inclusion of multiple quests that appear in most MMOs these days and how easy they are to find has put a veil over the eyes of the casual gamer.

    "I'm not grinding. I'm questing!"

    "What's the difference?"

    "I'm killing this mobs for a reward because this guy will give me one!"

    "Ahhh, that you are. But if he wasn't giving you that reward, would you still be killing those same mobs?"

    And there it is, the realization that all this time going from level 1 - 50 is a constant grind. So as the blood rushes from your head and you realize that you have, in fact, been grinding from the moment you logged on to Rift, what is your rebuttal?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    Your estimate of 5K prestige per win seems way too high. Maybe during the first weekend before they turned down the bonus.

    I don't have exact numbers but I want to say you get around 1:1 prestige and favor during the bonus now, which puts a win at only around 2500 max. The prestige bonus is what, 900 for a win?
    I won around 20 matches of codex yesterday and ended up with about 30k prestige and was first or 2nd in favor each match. Where is the 5k per match?

    The grind to R7-R8 is over 400 matches for most people. Average 10 minutes each, thats 4000 minutes.

    Anyone you see currently in R8 gear really ground that first weekend when it was 5k per match or exploited the pvp rifts.

    TBH I could care less about my rank, except for the fact the people with the R8 weapons totally outclass the rest of the field. They are the ones pwning people in 2 GCD's. So I guess its 4000 hours of grinding till I enjoy the game at all again.
    Last edited by solarbear; 08-23-2011 at 04:17 PM.

  10. #40
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    Last weekend on WS:

    Queue time: 5 - 10min Avg: ~ 7,5 min
    Match time: 5 - 10 min Avg: ~ 7,5 min
    Prestige Gain: 1500-2500 for a win 500-1000 for a loss -- assuming 80% win rate (which is optimistic) that's ~1700 prestige average. 15min per WF means you can play 4 games per hour which is 1700 * 4 = 6800 prestige per hour. Not very impressive for a double weekend.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by solarbear View Post
    i won around 20 matches of codex yesterday and ended up with about 30k prestige and was first or 2nd in favor each match. Where is the 5k per match?

    It's actually closer to 4k but it's that high because I am talking about the

    >>> Double Prestige Weekends with Escalation Whitefall Bonus -> Quad Prestige. <<< LOOK HERE

    Comprehend?


    Last edited by Tenet; 08-23-2011 at 07:05 PM.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenet View Post
    Is it acceptable to spend 32 hours on a Weekend doing the same ****ing Warfront again and again? Personal question. For me it's pretty terrible, but there is no alternative.
    You could, you know, play for fun.

    Sorry, lost my senses for a minute there. Total brain fart thinking games could be played for fun.

    There are still alternatives if you can't have fun without the shinies.

    Try to form skirmishes at PvP raids with the opposite faction. Sure, the rewards are pretty gimp if you lose, which is why you go for the win, which is the whole point of PvP (or at least used to be).

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenet View Post

    It's actually closer to 4k but it's that high because I am talking about the

    >>> Double Prestige Weekends with Escalation Whitefall Bonus -> Quad Prestige. <<< LOOK HERE

    Comprehend?


    I understand your calculation, but you can not base normal Prestige calculations on a double Prestige weekend. First it is not winnable without premades on your side, in any serious battlegroup, and secondly there is no saying how long Trion will keep running it.

    Under normal circumstances you are looking at several hundred warfronts just to move from R7 to R8.

    For me running Escalation is a waste of time as the Defiant clearly outclass us in our Battlegroup and now that they outgear us, its pretty sad.

  14. #44
    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    Grind is something you hate doing in order to get somewhere to have fun.
    No, grinding is doing the same thing over and over again, regardless of if it's fun or not.

    If you're not having fun, it's not the grind you hate, it's the gameplay that you hate.

    Who're you lying to? Me? Fine, lie to me if you want, but don't lie to yourself.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corian View Post
    Regarding your "hidden grind" remark, if you could progress through an MMO and reach the point where you've "finished" everything there is to do, there isn't much incentive to keep playing. MMOs are all grind, in every aspect of them. Always, all the time. All grind.
    I'd like to be able to get a full set of tanking, healing and dps gear before the next iteration gets out. Just saying...

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