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Thread: Different perspectives in pvp I've noticed - Seemingly becoming balanced

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    Prophet of Telara Shhhh's Avatar
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    Default Different perspectives in pvp I've noticed - Seemingly becoming balanced

    So within my own guild and people talking while pvping you hear different rants about different classes. A couple rogues are like "God marksman sucks tanks just shield block it and **** it, its so pointless except for the purge" yet mages and clerics "Jesus by time we find the marksman we're ***** they hurt so bad". Now they directly contradict each other. One is saying it's just terrible, because 1 class can own it, another 2 are saying it's good because it owns them, but to get everyone to see all sides is impossible.

    Yet people say X needs a buff just because of 1 class in 1 spec they had a problem with.. which is ridiculous.

    The pvp game is really turning into a paper / rock / scissors game which is actually pretty good. The same warriors non mages complain about I'm now able to kill, and the classes that I think are hard, their classes think they're easy.

    I think it's becoming more about choosing your battles. If you're a marksman you should know whos an easier target and whos the harder target. Same goes for mage, warrior, etc. And you shouldn't fight all classes the same and expect to win, because if you do and win easily all the time.. you're the one needing a nerf.

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    Plane Walker Alder's Avatar
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    You have to also understand the current situation, but i completely agree with you. There are so many rogues running around and unfortunately the counter to them is the flavor of the month warrior S&B build.

    That being said, i still think it's unfortunate when i pull up the group list and see 10 rogues on my team and 8 warriors on the other, that the outcome is basically decided before we start. It's luck of the draw and people don't like that. Sure it varies based on gear and ranks, but that's part of the problem as well.

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    Prophet of Telara Shhhh's Avatar
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    yea that just falls into the 'cant win them all' category. It is painful when I see that too. Or 7 mages on one side 7 rogues on the other.. just how it goes though.

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    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shhhh View Post
    yea that just falls into the 'cant win them all' category. It is painful when I see that too. Or 7 mages on one side 7 rogues on the other.. just how it goes though.
    But based on what you're saying then, one could postulate that in said situations - there is no point in trying.

    I actually feel the game has gotten more away from the RSP system than moved closer to it. On my Mage, I used to run 4 builds depending on the makeup of the enemy team or the particular WF (I ran an Elementalist/Chlor build in Scion because with it I could tank 4+ of the Elites, leaving the rest of the team to deal with the enemy players). I had a build for the enemy being heavy Mage, heavy healing, or heavy melee.

    Now, that does not matter - because they're just not effective in those kind of roles. Now it is a case of having Dom, Chlor, SC, and a quirky suicide build for single target elimination. If we have heals and no Doms, I play Dom. If we have heals and Doms, I play SC. If we really do not have heals, I play Chlor. If there is somebody that ticked me off and I'm seeing red, lol - the quirky build.

    One might think that role based is preferable to the RSP system. Thing is, it definitely leaves you vulnerable to those that can participate in the broken RSP system.

    In the example given, it is about the perspective of the MM Rogue vs. S&B Warrior and Mage/Cleric vs. MM Rogue. If one were going with the RSP in this case, would you say:

    S&B Warrior (Rock) > MM Rogue (Scissors) > Mage/Cleric (Paper)...?

    So then the Mage/Cleric (Paper) > S&B Warrior...?

    Is there a Rogue build that is the RSP to the S&B Warrior? Are there Mage/Cleric builds that are RSP to the MM Rogue? Are there actual counters within each Calling for Souls in the other Callings? Is there actually a RSP system?

    With eight Souls per Calling and the illusion of variety offered in builds, would one not expect there to be a jumbled mess of RSP possibilities?

    Warrior A can beat Rogue B. Rogue B can beat Cleric C. Cleric C can beat Mage D. Mage D may not necessarily be the counter that beats Warrior A. Mage D might beat Warrior G. Etc, etc, etc - then you would have a RSP system. I'm not seeing that in the least...

    ...for the most part at this point, we're just shy of being a FPS - mash away and hope they die before you do.
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    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    But based on what you're saying then, one could postulate that in said situations - there is no point in trying.

    I actually feel the game has gotten more away from the RSP system than moved closer to it.
    I like your post... i think, but the entire thing makes very little sense to me since i have no idea WTF RSP means. I wish i knew what your post was talking about.

    I think PvP on a class level is far more balanced than people give it credit for, but i think that the gear/rank/skill disparity is really masking that reality. A rank 8 warrior IS OP when he is being supported from behind by a pocket healer and a MM focusing on his targets, with a Stormcaller or Cabalist AoEing over the top of him, and he Riftwalks into an entire team of rank 1-5's. This can happen with a premade, or just 3-4 people who know WTF they are doing when a Rank 8 warrior shows up in their Warfront.

    Now if that rank 8 warrior was in a game of all rank 6+ people with 1kish Valor, he might not seem OP, and most likely he would be going against a team that could actually handle the fact that the rest of his team knows how to use him. This is based on the assumption that most rank 6+ people have some idea what they are doing, but then i am constantly astounded by how bad some people are in this game.

    I still think Riftwalk needs a cool down of some kind, and they definitely need to fix some of the Diminishing Returns stuff, but PvP on a calling by calling level i think is MUCH more balanced than this forum full of crying baddies would lead you to believe.

    P.S. after a 4'th read through i figured it out, you mean Paper, Rock, Scissors or Rock, Paper, Scissors... who the hell says Rock, Scissors, Paper? Leaving the first part up there tho, if you are going to use acronyms, spell it out first please.
    Hastati (50 warrior), Tsar (50 cleric), Tsaritsa (50 Mage)
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    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    P.S. after a 4'th read through i figured it out, you mean Paper, Rock, Scissors or Rock, Paper, Scissors... who the hell says Rock, Scissors, Paper? Leaving the first part up there tho, if you are going to use acronyms, spell it out first please.
    I went with RSP instead of RPS... because of this:

    Rock > Scissors > Paper

    It is funny that people call it Rock, Paper, Scissors... saying this:

    Rock < Paper < Scissors

    I prefer the more positive train of thought in saying X beats Y beats Z rather than saying X loses to Y loses to Z.

    (Which is odd, given I'm generally referred to as a Negative Ned.)
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
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    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    I went with RSP instead of RPS... because of this:

    Rock > Scissors > Paper

    It is funny that people call it Rock, Paper, Scissors... saying this:

    Rock < Paper < Scissors

    I prefer the more positive train of thought in saying X beats Y beats Z rather than saying X loses to Y loses to Z.

    (Which is odd, given I'm generally referred to as a Negative Ned.)
    Im pretty sure Scissors is always last because in the English language most of the time the S sound will be placed at the end of the list. S tends to be a finishing sound. It's mostly about how it rolls off the tongue.

    /post derailed
    Last edited by Gyle; 08-23-2011 at 11:48 AM.
    Hastati (50 warrior), Tsar (50 cleric), Tsaritsa (50 Mage)
    Guides: 51 Bladedancer, Bloodstalker, Nightblade
    DPS Rogue <Trinity>
    5/8 ID; HK Conqueror

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    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    Im pretty sure Scissors is always last because in the English language most of the time the S sound will be placed at the end of the list. S tends to be a finishing sound. It's mostly about how it rolls off the tongue.
    Then again: Rock, Scissors, Paper could create confusion for those that might read Rock Scissors Paper - as in, Rock destroys Paper. Which with the generally accepted Paper covers Rock, would be a problem. It is funny that Rock smashes Scissors...but Rock cannot smash Paper, eh?

    Yep, a faulty system - no wonder that many games that attempt to use it have so many problems...

    /post derailed
    Not derailed in the least - we're discussing PvP combat mechanics. Rock, Paper, Scissors is a form of PvP.

    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
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