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Thread: Cleric Heals are NOT OP - End of debate

  1. #91
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    He mentionned bard, it's exactly what I was referring at when mentionning Skald and more so Minstrel that could give both the Shaman and the Bard a run for their money.

    Battle bards were one of the best soloing classes until most everyone ranked up in RRs might I add. It's a moot point anyhow, as the poster you replied to was talking from playing support and clearly came forward saying he wasn't killing them, simply that he was not being killed while playing those 2 classes if he had his tools up and wasn't being jumped from the get go.

    Use of terrain easily neglects MoC for starters. Yes, it was very good, but a lack of LoS, Nearsight, being snared through shaman insta disease (or through their r5) and only having time to land one nuke on a sprinting target using LoS. I don't deny how good it was, just that it was circumstancial as well and that good players could work around it in many situations; Not all, but far more than we could think. Hib stun was something else, but of little worries to a Bard. We haven't even touched the ToA argument which provided many other options in favor of someone wanting to avoid/survive a fight he/she doesn't wish for!

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree to a certain extent.

  2. #92
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    "Healers" have no aoe dps. Cab has aoe a ways up in the tree and inq has COO at 31 pts. Hard to be heal in that case.

    Although on my healer you need to fear my OP waterjet.

    Nerf waterjet!

  3. #93
    Plane Walker habby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    Yep, you got me all figured out. What else could I say?



    I was talking about a warfront situation. When 5 people attack one healer, there are usually other healers around, bards, mages, etc. So when 5 people attack that healer, he heals himself, and all other healers around foucus on that one healer, so you end up watching how his health bar goes to 1/3 and then instantly up to 100%. Just like watching practice dummy. Unless all dpsing ppl finishers crit the same time, he'll just stand there healing. Of course that said you have enough gear, you're focusing, teamwork and stuff.

    Warfront where noone dies is a figure of speech, there will always be someone dead there, but the total death count willl be very small because noone is wiping. A few people will die but they'll respawn and run back before everyone else die. Other then that, banging against the wall.

    I bring up dps clerics because they heal at the same time so it's related. Either their dps and survivability is greatly reduced and healing left as it is, or clerics will stay overpowered as they are currently.



    Since it's impossible (much longer wait then single queue) to actually join with a premade I usually end up without my guild there. Also, to attack a healer in a warfront you usually need to run on the back of enemy group where there's no healing or not very much. I would win without heals in the game, but it's good to have some, but not as much as it is now. Either reduce healers survivability and dps or healing.



    I did because you didn't prove anything with your math. Was there any math btw? You need more then one person to drop a cleric, might be awesome warrior and rogue only, but the number is irrelevant actually since it's still bigger then 1. In group dynamics it gets multiplied just like some person already mentioned in this thread, all healing gets quadrupled with all bards, mages, and clerics firing their skills altogether.



    Thanks for the advice Mr. Obvious. The problem is that WF groups are random so it's hard to get balanced team. But if it happens to get 12 dps and 3 healers against 15 healers, 15 healers will win, because clerics can aoe dps better AND heal themselves at nauseam whilst 3 healers won't be able to heal combined dps of 15 clerics. 2 or 3 healers may die, but 15 clerics will kill 3 healers from the opposite team faster and then aoe the 12 dps to hell in 10 seconds. 15 healing and dpsing in this game is better then 12 dps and 3 healing. That's why it needs a nerf. Maybe group mechanics and group healing need a nerf not single cleric healing, nevertheless it shouldn't stay the way it is now because it's too much.
    Low average dps 1000dps
    average single target 1000hps

    (1000+1000)*0.54=1080dps > 1000 hps

    That is using low dps, good dps makes it that much different. Throw in stuns, heal debuffs, interrupts and such, if 2 dps can't take down 1 equal geared healer, they either need to take a look at their specs, or look in the mirror and figure out what they are doing wrong.

    And stop being an idiot, if you see a cleric doing huge AoE damage, they are not a healer, cannot heal and die extremely quickly. Read and understand how the cleric class works before you start spouting off nonsense, I'm sure there's a website that has pictures and big words for you, since you can't seem to comprehend the fact that clerics, like rogues, like warriors, like mages, only get 66 soul points, unless there are some of my fellow clerics who have managed to put together the 150 pt build that you'd need to do what you think that clerics can do.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cillard View Post
    He mentionned bard, it's exactly what I was referring at when mentionning Skald and more so Minstrel that could give both the Shaman and the Bard a run for their money.

    Battle bards were one of the best soloing classes until most everyone ranked up in RRs might I add. It's a moot point anyhow, as the poster you replied to was talking from playing support and clearly came forward saying he wasn't killing them, simply that he was not being killed while playing those 2 classes if he had his tools up and wasn't being jumped from the get go.

    Use of terrain easily neglects MoC for starters. Yes, it was very good, but a lack of LoS, Nearsight, being snared through shaman insta disease (or through their r5) and only having time to land one nuke on a sprinting target using LoS. I don't deny how good it was, just that it was circumstancial as well and that good players could work around it in many situations; Not all, but far more than we could think. Hib stun was something else, but of little worries to a Bard. We haven't even touched the ToA argument which provided many other options in favor of someone wanting to avoid/survive a fight he/she doesn't wish for!

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree to a certain extent.
    We can agree to disagree since most of this is moot.

    His point was that healers could take on dps in DAOC. My extensive experiences in both 8man and 1v1 pvp in DAOC was that healers relied very heavily on teammates to support and peel for them. Healers left alone could not simply sit and "tank" the dps on them while pumping out heals.

    Edit - Also, if you are running the taco bell loop, outside bled bridge, or around hib drop off point like most of the action on our server, you didn't deal with LoS very often.
    Last edited by Snyrf; 08-23-2011 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #95
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    no qq here. I consistently outheal clerics with my mage. But that didn't start til 1.3 ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by habby View Post
    Low average dps 1000dps
    average single target 1000hps

    (1000+1000)*0.54=1080dps > 1000 hps

    That is using low dps, good dps makes it that much different. Throw in stuns, heal debuffs, interrupts and such, if 2 dps can't take down 1 equal geared healer, they either need to take a look at their specs, or look in the mirror and figure out what they are doing wrong.

    And stop being an idiot, if you see a cleric doing huge AoE damage, they are not a healer, cannot heal and die extremely quickly. Read and understand how the cleric class works before you start spouting off nonsense, I'm sure there's a website that has pictures and big words for you, since you can't seem to comprehend the fact that clerics, like rogues, like warriors, like mages, only get 66 soul points, unless there are some of my fellow clerics who have managed to put together the 150 pt build that you'd need to do what you think that clerics can do.
    Let me point out the most important part for you:

    You need more then one person to drop a cleric, might be awesome warrior and rogue only, but the number is irrelevant actually since it's still bigger then 1.

    Also since once cleric can deal 1,5 mln damage with one build then switch and deal 500k healing with another one, during one Scion, then it's still better use of those 66 soul points then rogue, mage and warrior. It's OP.
    Last edited by Overdrive; 08-23-2011 at 01:41 PM.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    Let me point out the most important part for you:

    You need more then one person to drop a cleric, might be awesome warrior and rogue only, but the number is irrelevant actually since it's still bigger then 1.

    Also since once cleric can deal 1,5 mln damage with one build then switch and deal 500k healing with another one, during one Scion, then it's still better use of those 66 soul points then rogue, mage and warrior. It's OP.
    Let me point out the important bits for you.

    If a cleric is doing that kind of damage, it's all AE damage and is easily healed. Meaning that the burst damage on a single one of those targets is so low as to be inconsequential. Burst damage is what wins fights. AE damage like how we get numbers like that only serves to pressure the opposing team's healers and allow OUR burst damage classes (none of which are clerics) to take down opponents. On the flip-side, a lot of those huge healing numbers come from healing the other team's AE damage.

    All it takes is an opposing team that doesn't know how to work together and mark targets and we can usually heal the majority of the AE damage with a few of us (healers, not clerics in particular). That's how they get those huge numbers and why it is often referred to as padding your score. While it puts up huge numbers, it isn't as important as burst dps on focused targets. I do believe it has it's place however.

    It's a part of a thing called strategy. FYI, strategy is akin to teamwork and seems to be something you are strongly averse to, going by your previous posts in this thread. Want to just maul people with heals not having any meaningful effect? Go play a FPS. Those have the kind of gameplay that you are looking for. I'm not knocking them, as I'm an avid FPS player, myself. However, they require a different type of strategy that is out of place in an MMO with healing classes.

    Also, you seem to have missed people talking about how they can also match those numbers on other callings, given the right circumstances. Your posted screeny of the scoreboard at the end means nothing without knowing all the circumstances of the match is was taken in. This was also discussed and you ignored it. I know reading is tough, but keep trying at it.
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    You need more then one person to drop a cleric, might be awesome warrior and rogue only, but the number is irrelevant actually since it's still bigger then 1..
    Making a single dps > than single healer is one way to design pvp, but it isn't the only/best way. In that system, healers end up as liabilities, requiring one or two other players to simply babysit them (which isn't always fun for the healer/babysitters). I don't know if it would equate to "better" team play, since it boils down to trading dps/healing for more cc/buffs. And it would still suffer from the lack of focus in pugs, which appears to be your main problem with Rift's pvp (unless you're purely concerned with 1v1, in which case your argument is a nonstarter). I think you're just looking at a different pvp design with some REALLY rose-tinted glasses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by victz View Post
    Making a single dps > than single healer is one way to design pvp, but it isn't the only/best way. In that system, healers end up as liabilities, requiring one or two other players to simply babysit them (which isn't always fun for the healer/babysitters). I don't know if it would equate to "better" team play, since it boils down to trading dps/healing for more cc/buffs. And it would still suffer from the lack of focus in pugs, which appears to be your main problem with Rift's pvp (unless you're purely concerned with 1v1, in which case your argument is a nonstarter). I think you're just looking at a different pvp design with some REALLY rose-tinted glasses.
    Maybe just some different design that I happened to enjoy more. Still having something to fight over like a guild castle is better then pvping over nothing in particular.

  10. #100
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    I am fine with healers having a lot of survivability but the issue is they CAN kill you in 1v1 open-world situations. I usually play 51 sin in the open-world, and the players I always avoid are the R6+ wardens (yes some Clerics do run around solo in the open-world with their full Warden spec for some reason). No point in even trying. I would rather face an R8 warrior.

    What usually happens with us sins, is we open with jagged--puncure --impale, which puts the cleric at 80ish% health. He turns around and insta-heals, then water-jets you. Then he just keeps u kited the whole time with water-jet while he throws his other weak attacks on you. Sure the attacks he throws aren't that strong, but he just keeps water-jetting and healing himself until you're dead. It takes a while for him to kill you, but no matter what attack you throw on him, he just insta-heals through it. Even when you throw anathema on him, it doesn't much matter. He just rofls through it and keeps healing (anathema is a joke, it's a waste of Infiltrator space).

    So, yes, Cleric SELF-healing is OP'ed. Either give them no offensive abilities or nerf the heals.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by -HellsWrath- View Post
    Let me point out the important bits for you.

    If a cleric is doing that kind of damage, it's all AE damage and is easily healed. Meaning that the burst damage on a single one of those targets is so low as to be inconsequential. Burst damage is what wins fights. AE damage like how we get numbers like that only serves to pressure the opposing team's healers and allow OUR burst damage classes (none of which are clerics) to take down opponents. On the flip-side, a lot of those huge healing numbers come from healing the other team's AE damage.

    All it takes is an opposing team that doesn't know how to work together and mark targets and we can usually heal the majority of the AE damage with a few of us (healers, not clerics in particular). That's how they get those huge numbers and why it is often referred to as padding your score. While it puts up huge numbers, it isn't as important as burst dps on focused targets. I do believe it has it's place however.

    It's a part of a thing called strategy. FYI, strategy is akin to teamwork and seems to be something you are strongly averse to, going by your previous posts in this thread. Want to just maul people with heals not having any meaningful effect? Go play a FPS. Those have the kind of gameplay that you are looking for. I'm not knocking them, as I'm an avid FPS player, myself. However, they require a different type of strategy that is out of place in an MMO with healing classes.

    Also, you seem to have missed people talking about how they can also match those numbers on other callings, given the right circumstances. Your posted screeny of the scoreboard at the end means nothing without knowing all the circumstances of the match is was taken in. This was also discussed and you ignored it. I know reading is tough, but keep trying at it.
    I tend to ignore things that are irrelevant to an argument.

    1. I haven't seen screenshots confirming what those people said, so until proven, it never happened.

    2. I like FPS games and there's a place for them. Also, I'm not saying that healing should be removed in Rift completly, but it should be reduced OR survivability AND damage of healers should be reduced.

    3. I can't see much of a strategy in marking healers 1 2 3 and killing them one by one. It's just chanelled power of the zerg. Strategy is when you need to actually think what you're doing and with the smart usage of your skills tip the balance of the game in your favor. There's no balance in Rift so there's nothing to tip. Any premade is going to own pug, premade vs premade wins gear. Equaly geared premade vs premade wins the one with more clerics. No strategy here. Stay close, avoid aoe, focus.

    To make this more clear, there are no flanking manouvers, there's no archers barrage, no smart usage of terrain, no ambushes, no choke points, etc. It's just mark, focus fire, build up and finisher. It's spam macros and getting out of **** on the ground. Anyone who thinks there's any sort of strategy in this game is a fool.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by AceinHole View Post
    I am fine with healers having a lot of survivability but the issue is they CAN kill you in 1v1 open-world situations. I usually play 51 sin in the open-world, and the players I always avoid are the R6+ wardens (yes some Clerics do run around solo in the open-world with their full Warden spec for some reason). No point in even trying. I would rather face an R8 warrior.

    What usually happens with us sins, is we open with jagged--puncure --impale, which puts the cleric at 80ish% health. He turns around and insta-heals, then water-jets you. Then he just keeps u kited the whole time with water-jet while he throws his other weak attacks on you. Sure the attacks he throws aren't that strong, but he just keeps water-jetting and healing himself until you're dead. It takes a while for him to kill you, but no matter what attack you throw on him, he just insta-heals through it. Even when you throw anathema on him, it doesn't much matter. He just rofls through it and keeps healing (anathema is a joke, it's a waste of Infiltrator space).

    So, yes, Cleric SELF-healing is OP'ed. Either give them no offensive abilities or nerf the heals.
    If you have trouble killing a R6 healing cleric , no way in #$% hell are you killing a R8 warrior . Take our heals away and we would be nothing . DPS clerics lack the heals and can be killed easily . Cabs get roflrolled in 1 v 1 . Our melee specs are terrible in pvp . Stop crying about the only soul that we can keep ourselves up in and take 10 mins to kill anything in , reroll or get more gear .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyjax View Post
    If you have trouble killing a R6 healing cleric , no way in #$% hell are you killing a R8 warrior . Take our heals away and we would be nothing . DPS clerics lack the heals and can be killed easily . Cabs get roflrolled in 1 v 1 . Our melee specs are terrible in pvp . Stop crying about the only soul that we can keep ourselves up in and take 10 mins to kill anything in , reroll or get more gear .
    The game is not about keeping you up, it's about balance. You being hard to kill in healing/tanking spec unbalances the whole game. Either reduce healing OR reduce damage output and survivability.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    Yep, you got me all figured out. What else could I say?

    I was talking about a warfront situation. When 5 people attack one healer, there are usually other healers around, bards, mages, etc. So when 5 people attack that healer, he heals himself, and all other healers around foucus on that one healer, so you end up watching how his health bar goes to 1/3 and then instantly up to 100%. Just like watching practice dummy. Unless all dpsing ppl finishers crit the same time, he'll just stand there healing. Of course that said you have enough gear, you're focusing, teamwork and stuff.
    Nah, in a real WF situation, that healer is dead. You are living in the land of make believe, I play a healer primarily, and yea I wish that was the way it worked. Not that I say you are lying or anything, you are probably encountering gear disparity, gimped specs, whatever, with a pug you never know what you are going to get. Go rolll a healer and see how it really is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    Warfront where noone dies is a figure of speech, there will always be someone dead there, but the total death count willl be very small because noone is wiping. A few people will die but they'll respawn and run back before everyone else die. Other then that, banging against the wall.
    That situation is so rare. I would say 95% of the WF's I play either the Guardians or Defiants have high dps and someone is getting wiped. Lets face it, dps is easy to come by in this game. Exaggerate much?

    That said, this situation exists because people are too stupid to attack the same target and at the same time have remarkably low dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    I bring up dps clerics because they heal at the same time so it's related. Either their dps and survivability is greatly reduced and healing left as it is, or clerics will stay overpowered as they are currently.
    you have no idea what off topic means do you? this thread wasn't about cleric dps, and nothing I am arguing has anything to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    Since it's impossible (much longer wait then single queue) to actually join with a premade I usually end up without my guild there. Also, to attack a healer in a warfront you usually need to run on the back of enemy group where there's no healing or not very much. I would win without heals in the game, but it's good to have some, but not as much as it is now. Either reduce healers survivability and dps or healing.
    rofl, its highly possible to queue up with guildies using single or group queue. I even had friends on a different server that I would queue with, man you just have no clue whats going on right now do you?

    How on earth would you win without heals in the game. You don't use any sort of group tactics, if heals were removed, you would just get owned and then complain about some other group based skill. Rift pvp is not a 1 vs 1 arena you can't and won't win a warfront by 'killing people singlehandedly'.
    [/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    In group dynamics it gets multiplied just like some person already mentioned in this thread, all healing gets quadrupled with all bards, mages, and clerics firing their skills altogether.
    In other words, AE heals stack. Guess what else stacks, AE damage. With LW you cut the HPS in half, so it is pretty easy to trump HPS with DPS in this game. You are just mad because you can't kill people solo in a WF. Dude, that is not a realistic expectation. WF's have multiple people in them. Its not a 1 vs 1 arena. They don't put people 15 people in a WF so that they can all solo each other.

  15. #105
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    I think it is ok if it takes more then 1 dps to kill a healer.

    but it should take 1 DPS focused on healer to couse the healer to need to use all his healing on himselve to survive.
    basicly shuting the healer down

    so a combat would go somthing like this:
    rougues sneak around and engage healers preventing them from healing anybody besides themselves.
    the rest of the group kill the players that now recieve no healing
    then help to quickly finish of the healers.

    yes you might get less killing blows if your one of the players doing the role of keeping the oponents healers from doing their jobs.
    but the favor gained trough your groop mates killing of the peoplewho stoped recieving healing should compensaatr nicely.

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