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Thread: Cleric Heals are NOT OP - End of debate

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Covenn View Post
    Except competent damage dealers have no problems killing clerics. The problem is most people want to smash thier face into their keyboards and kill things instead of having to think about it.
    R8 gear, HK weapons, healing debuff. Can't drop equally geared cleric nor healing mage.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    R8 gear, HK weapons, healing debuff. Can't drop equally geared cleric nor healing mage.
    By yourself no, you shouldnt be able to. I was referring to more than 1 competent dps in context of the conversation, so it wasn't clear.

    For example, -a- competent R8 warrior gets on me ...he wont kill me, but he will apply enough pressure on me that I have to focus on myself and work to keep myself alive. We pretty much cancel each other out at this point.

    Now if I have a warrior + another R8 damage dealer on me, I am dead. I might prolong that situation by burning cooldown defensives and long cool down insta heals, but I am dead none the less without outside intervention on my behalf. To me this seems exactly right.

    The problem is that people have widely varying perspectives because of rank / gear differences. A R8 cleric to a R1 warrior is grossly OP because the rank 8 cleric can practically ignore the warrior. On the flip side, a R8 warrior is going to kill a rank 1 cleric in the span of a few gcd's, making the warrior look grossly OP to the cleric.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Covenn View Post
    By yourself no, you shouldnt be able to. I was referring to more than 1 competent dps in context of the conversation, so it wasn't clear.

    For example, -a- competent R8 warrior gets on me ...he wont kill me, but he will apply enough pressure on me that I have to focus on myself and work to keep myself alive. We pretty much cancel each other out at this point.

    Now if I have a warrior + another R8 damage dealer on me, I am dead. I might prolong that situation by burning cooldown defensives and long cool down insta heals, but I am dead none the less without outside intervention on my behalf. To me this seems exactly right.

    The problem is that people have widely varying perspectives because of rank / gear differences. A R8 cleric to a R1 warrior is grossly OP because the rank 8 cleric can practically ignore the warrior. On the flip side, a R8 warrior is going to kill a rank 1 cleric in the span of a few gcd's, making the warrior look grossly OP to the cleric.
    I think that the difference is between whether or not 1 DPS should kill 1 healing class in the long run. To me it should, because killing should be the sole purpose of this game and healing is support not a main focus of the game. Gear differences balance themselves out nicely if healing is not the sole purpose of the game. Not to mention that equally to me geared cleric can easily kill me when I cannot kill him. That's stupid, it makes their dps more valid, it makes them natural tanks and also they aoe heal. That's not op? That's ultimate class of any game, capable of everything.
    Last edited by Overdrive; 08-23-2011 at 06:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraplop View Post
    The OP is correct and I am really disappointed with those that disagree. It means you don't know the ancient secret of MMO's. I will now behold on to you the mystical coveted secret passed down from mmo generation to mmo generation:

    /assist

    In most warfronts, there are enough people in them to completely marginilize healers. All they would have to do is use the /assist command. Not only would it be hard for a healer to even get off an instant heal, but even if he did, it would not really have any effect. When people do this, your strategy changes, you don't go after healers, you go after dps because healers are useless pawns at this point.
    Every game I've played has healers that are tough to kill and they should be. But requoting this guy because no one paid any attention to him and he's 100% correct.

    It's called focus firing! If you're in a pug than there's not much you can do, but competent healers should and will be able to keep group members alive for a while unless you have several people focusing them. If you're all killing different people it's like you're not even in a group. Working as a team can do wonders.... who would've thought? :P If you run with pugs all the time then you have no room to complain - you get what you signed up for and just have fun with it. But if you're going to get serious about PvP and do lots of it, you should find a group of friends to run with. Healing someone whose only getting hit by one or two people isn't too hard, that's what healers are literally built for. But against several - we can't do anything to keep them alive. This has always been true in MMO's. Have you guys never done this before LOL? Quoted poster is right - play right and the enemy healer isn't a problem at all.
    Last edited by Leiloni; 08-23-2011 at 06:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    I think that the difference is between whether or not 1 DPS should kill 1 healing class in the long run. To me it should, because killing should be the sole purpose of this game and healing is support not a main focus of the game. Gear differences balance themselves out nicely if healing is not the sole purpose of the game. Not to mention that equally to me geared cleric can easily kill me when I cannot kill him. That's stupid, it makes their dps more valid, it makes them natural tanks and also they aoe heal. That's not op? That's ultimate class of any game, capable of everything.
    I think there is a problem of perspective here. What incentive would anyone have to play a healer if they couldnt even keep themself alive vs a single dps? There would be absolutely no reason at all to do so. This is already being evidenced by the fact that there was a 100 page+ post about the nerfed heals, mainly by lower ranked clerics or those that werent geared out yet. This has also been evidenced by the propensity for lower ranked clerics to dps or run crappy heal specs just so they can hope to either kill something or live a little longer to heal.

    On the other side of things.... sure, I can kill you on my cleric in a complete 1v1 situation. Why would you let me spend a minute+ of gcds slowly whittling away your health in between healing myself? Why does this matter at all in the grand scheme of things? At some point and time you can make the conscious choice to either stop attacking and call it a draw or let yourself die to 350 damage water pistol shots at a time (assuming you have full valor and I am R8).

    You also need to have perspective that everything about a cleric is a trade off. If I want to heal well, I do no damage. If I want to tank like a pro, I heal like crap AND do crap for damage ...but you can beat on me all day. If I want to do damage, then my damage still sucks except for ae fluff on the scoreboard and I cant heal for ****. If I want to try and do some damage AND some healing, I suck at both and am absolute fodder for anyone with halfway decent dps.


    Edit: Oh and killing isnt't the sole purpose of this game. It may be to YOU, but you arent representative of everyone. My purpose in this game is to enable other to kill by keeping them alive. If you take away my ability to heal through even a single dps, you take away the sole purpose of the game to ME. As it stands now, there is a semblance of balance at equal ranks and gear.
    Last edited by Covenn; 08-23-2011 at 06:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leiloni View Post
    Every game I've played has healers that are tough to kill and they should be. But requoting this guy because no one paid any attention to him and he's 100% correct.

    It's called focus firing! If you're in a pug than there's not much you can do, but competent healers should and will be able to keep group members alive for a while unless you have several people focusing them. If you're all killing different people it's like you're not even in a group. Working as a team can do wonders.... who would've thought? :P If you run with pugs all the time then you have no room to complain - you get what you signed up for and just have fun with it. But if you're going to get serious about PvP and do lots of it, you should find a group of friends to run with. Healing someone whose only getting hit by one or two people isn't too hard, that's what healers are literally built for. But against several - we can't do anything to keep them alive. This has always been true in MMO's. Have you guys never done this before LOL? Quoted poster is right - play right and the enemy healer isn't a problem at all.
    I did, games that allowed 1 dps kill 1 cleric after some time and stay alive were much better then "Kill the cleric" games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Covenn View Post
    I think there is a problem of perspective here. What incentive would anyone have to play a healer if they couldnt even keep themself alive vs a single dps? There would be absolutely no reason at all to do so. This is already being evidenced by the fact that there was a 100 page+ post about the nerfed heals, mainly by lower ranked clerics or those that werent geared out yet. This has also been evidenced by the propensity for lower ranked clerics to dps or run crappy heal specs just so they can hope to either kill something or live a little longer to heal.

    On the other side of things.... sure, I can kill you on my cleric in a complete 1v1 situation. Why would you let me spend a minute+ of gcds slowly whittling away your health in between healing myself? Why does this matter at all in the grand scheme of things? At some point and time you can make the conscious choice to either stop attacking and call it a draw or let yourself die to 350 damage water pistol shots at a time (assuming you have full valor and I am R8).

    You also need to have perspective that everything about a cleric is a trade off. If I want to heal well, I do no damage. If I want to tank like a pro, I heal like crap AND do crap for damage ...but you can beat on me all day. If I want to do damage, then my damage still sucks except for ae fluff on the scoreboard and I cant heal for ****. If I want to try and do some damage AND some healing, I suck at both and am absolute fodder for anyone with halfway decent dps.


    Edit: Oh and killing isnt't the sole purpose of this game. It may be to YOU, but you arent representative of everyone. My purpose in this game is to enable other to kill by keeping them alive. If you take away my ability to heal through even a single dps, you take away the sole purpose of the game to ME. As it stands now, there is a semblance of balance at equal ranks and gear.
    Really? A tradeoff? Then you must have missed my post a page or two back.

    http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3...171432copy.jpg

    Could you tell me what this guy traded off? Could you tell me what 3 other dps AND healing topping clerics traded off?

    EDIT: But to answer your other question. The reason healing is introduced in games is not to make someone invincible or unkillable, it's introduced to tip the balance. TIP not make it the sole purpose of playing. That means if 1 team has 1 cleric, that team will win even if he's going down in first 15 seconds of the fight.
    Last edited by Overdrive; 08-23-2011 at 06:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leiloni View Post
    Every game I've played has healers that are tough to kill and they should be. But requoting this guy because no one paid any attention to him and he's 100% correct.

    It's called focus firing! If you're in a pug than there's not much you can do, but competent healers should and will be able to keep group members alive for a while unless you have several people focusing them. If you're all killing different people it's like you're not even in a group. Working as a team can do wonders.... who would've thought? :P If you run with pugs all the time then you have no room to complain - you get what you signed up for and just have fun with it. But if you're going to get serious about PvP and do lots of it, you should find a group of friends to run with. Healing someone whose only getting hit by one or two people isn't too hard, that's what healers are literally built for. But against several - we can't do anything to keep them alive. This has always been true in MMO's. Have you guys never done this before LOL? Quoted poster is right - play right and the enemy healer isn't a problem at all.
    To back up this statement and the other poster he quoted ......I am typically the best healer in every warfront I join except for a few exceptional others. It is absolutely impossible for me to heal through coordinated focus fire because targets drop from full health to 0 in a single GCD with enough focus fire, or a couple of GCDs from less as I cant keep up with the damage.

    Not only that, but this game has extremely dumbed down assisting. All you have to do is set your focus bind target of target to a key. In addition, the ability to mark healers has made target prioritization extremely dumbed down and stupid. Hell, you only have to open a scoreboard once to see who is healing... mark them, and even if they die, they stay marked the entire WF. Talk about easy mode PvP for dummies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    Really? A tradeoff? Then you must have missed my post a page or two back.

    http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3...171432copy.jpg

    Could you tell me what this guy traded off? Could you tell me what 3 other dps AND healing topping clerics traded off?
    *sigh* .... explain to me the circumstances of that screenshot. Why did it look that way? Did you ask yourself that? It is the norm or an anomaly?

    I had a similiar WF to that last night, a scion that went full time limit. I started out in full heal spec and stayed that way for the first 10 minutes or so. Neither side was killing each other because we had a lack of spiked dps capability due to only one warrior in it (suprise) and everyone trying to splash AE around at the bridge.

    I racked up 450k in heals in 10 minutes healing through all the ae damage with other clerics.

    A asswipe died and started giving me a hard time about not healing him (god forbid I was doing my best) ...so I got frustrated, ran out of combat and switched to cabalist because we had other healers that were doing a good job. I then proceeded to spam AE until the end of the WF at the bridge and racked up 1.5 million damage and 30 or so deathblows (deathblows mean exactly **** in AE situations btw ...it means more when you have high deathblows and lower damage because it means you can actually spike).

    So I ended up with an impressive 450k heals, 1.5 million damage, and 30+ deathblows because I started out healing, then switched to spam splash AE at the bridge. I can almost guarantee you that this is what happened in that screenshot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    EDIT: But to answer your other question. The reason healing is introduced in games is not to make someone invincible or unkillable, it's introduced to tip the balance. TIP not make it the sole purpose of playing. That means if 1 team has 1 cleric, that team will win even if he's going down in first 15 seconds of the fight.
    I am not tipping balance if I cant keep someone alive through a single dps, I would do a better job of tipping it by doing more damage so we can kill the other team's damage dealers quicker.

    You do realize that healing in a warfront is mostly selfless right? I mean you cant kill stuff yourself and you are ENABLING the game play and fun of other people. Do you really want to play a game where healers are so ineffectual that nobody plays one, because that is what you absolutely are asking for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Covenn View Post
    *sigh* .... explain to me the circumstances of that screenshot. Why did it look that way? Did you ask yourself that? It is the norm or an anomaly?

    I had a similiar WF to that last night, a scion that went full time limit. I started out in full heal spec and stayed that way for the first 10 minutes or so. Neither side was killing each other because we had a lack of spiked dps capability due to only one warrior in it (suprise) and everyone trying to splash AE around at the bridge.

    I racked up 450k in heals in 10 minutes healing through all the ae damage with other clerics.

    A asswipe died and started giving me a hard time about not healing him (god forbid I was doing my best) ...so I got frustrated, ran out of combat and switched to cabalist because we had other healers that were doing a good job. I then proceeded to spam AE until the end of the WF at the bridge and racked up 1.5 million damage and 30 or so deathblows (deathblows mean exactly **** in AE situations btw ...it means more when you have high deathblows and lower damage because it means you can actually spike).

    So I ended up with an impressive 450k heals, 1.5 million damage, and 30+ deathblows because I started out healing, then switched to spam splash AE at the bridge. I can almost guarantee you that this is what happened in that screenshot.
    Ok, and you seem to be fine with it. Is there any way rogue or warrior do something like that? No. Only mages can aspire to similar effect, and only that, aspire. Do you see any pleasure in having excess of healing? The ideal would be 20 clerics agains 20 clerics and nobody killing anybody. Is that fun?

    BTW, don't you ever try to play Guild Wars 2 with that attitude. There's no healing class there, you won't be able to make anyone invincible and unkillable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Covenn View Post
    I am not tipping balance if I cant keep someone alive through a single dps, I would do a better job of tipping it by doing more damage so we can kill the other team's damage dealers quicker.

    You do realize that healing in a warfront is mostly selfless right? I mean you cant kill stuff yourself and you are ENABLING the game play and fun of other people. Do you really want to play a game where healers are so ineffectual that nobody plays one, because that is what you absolutely are asking for.
    First you would have to create a game where there's something to fight over for. Since it's totally pointless here, ergo overpowered clerics to make it less obvious that just hammering each other out without a goal is dumb.

    Also, I didn't say you shouldn't be able to keep someone up alive through a single DPS. I said you shouldn't be able to keep YOURSELF up through single dps IN THE LONG RUN. So it would still require focus to kill you as fast as possible, it will keep healing valid but not to the point where it's stupid. It would require a skill on tanks called "guard" to make your survivability higher, but you still should be squishy and not topping BOTH dps and healing staying alive at the same time.

  13. #43
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    In PvP, expect more and more nerfs to heals as Valor levels continues to increase (p9-p10 ranks).

    In a few weeks (after the half-birthday celebration bonus), you should expect to see a whole lot of whines about p8 Riftblades and p8 tank clerics. Round and round we go - never addressing the core issue.
    Last edited by Xsi; 08-23-2011 at 07:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive View Post
    First you would have to create a game where there's something to fight over for. Since it's totally pointless here, ergo overpowered clerics to make it less obvious that just hammering each other out without a goal is dumb.

    Also, I didn't say you shouldn't be able to keep someone up alive through a single DPS. I said you shouldn't be able to keep YOURSELF up through single dps IN THE LONG RUN. So it would still require focus to kill you as fast as possible, it will keep healing valid but not to the point where it's stupid. It would require a skill on tanks called "guard" to make your survivability higher, but you still should be squishy and not topping BOTH dps and healing staying alive at the same time.
    Why not? Why should a healer inevitably fall to a single DPS?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    from what ive seen in game the biggest problem and I do mean this in the nicest sense.. the biggest problem with healing in rift is thier is just to much of it in a warfront that it becomes overpowered..

    you are not fighting 1 cleric you are fighting off 4 clerics healing with a static boost from that nearby bard and stream of healing from those chloros all the while watching procs from thier trinkets shoot off healing even more.

    You unleash your opening attack get ready to swing again and the opponent is full health.. you prep your spell 7 seconds of time taken boom nuke them for 4.5k think your mine now and whoosh full health. with so much healing taking place peoples views get tainted of the individual abilities in general with all the aoe heals over-lapping its a wonder if you manage to kill anyone at all.. and often the case you don't.

    And now with so many healers in a warfront even if you somehow take one down it has little impact overall as that player tends to respawn and back in the fight before your CD's have recycled.

    This is not every warfront but its becomming more and more of a common occurance on my cluster
    I can't say if one person healing is OP cause it never happens in my WFs. This guy has it right. So much healing around aoe and single target makes dps null and void. Yeah if ya focus fire someone down they will die but woot 1 down 14 more to go. Oh wait we lost 3 of our dps guess he will be the only who goes down.

    Being in a WF and looking at the board and have 9 healing on 1 side and also dpsing prolly 6 of them that leaves rougly 6 actual DDs. Thats were healing becomes an issue espcially for those who can't heal IE rogues and warriors.

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