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Thread: It's power creep

  1. #1
    Sword of Telara Furienify's Avatar
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    Default It's power creep

    And I'm surprised that I haven't seen anyone point this out yet. And it's getting ridiculous.

    Prior to 1.4, I suppose even with the healing nerf (Cleric here, by the by) I felt that PvP was 'alright'. Things could still use some tweaking - lingering wounds, perhaps, or fear bombs, but these were all somewhat complicated to balance neatly so I didn't mind. Perhaps this is just me fondly remembering a better time, but I felt that the game was slightly balanced then, especially compared to now.

    However, with 1.4 and the additions of R7 and R8, that was blown violently out of the water. It's power creep. Most of the problems being complained about here, I've noticed, can all tie back to the addition of new gear or gearsets - Assassin bleeds, invulnerable Clerics, invulnerable Chloromancers, 10k health Chloromancers, Chloromancers/Clerics topping both dmg/healing charts, Cabalist nukes wrecking entire groups, Stormcaller nukes wrecking entire groups, warriors killing you with a sneeze. Our ceiling is too damn high, and the floor feels like it's subterranean by comparison. I'm talking inherent, systematic and mechanical flaws here - not class balanced issues. To rattle a few off the top of my head:

    - Gear set bonuses. They're a new thing, but for each class they give anywhere from 250-500 health and 75-200 sp. I think it's double the AP for rogues/warriors, but I'm not sure.

    - Weapon DPS difference. Compare the following:
    r5 Warrior 2hander, 44.1dps
    r7 Warrior 1hander, 44.5dps

    Yes, between the two items, there are definitely stat differences. But once you get the rest of the r7/r8 gear, that's more than made up for - in the end, a sword/board warrior can pull off as much damage in PvP as an r5/6 2hander, if not more. (Albeit in different ways given how Champ/Para/Rb works)

    - Gear Discrepancy.
    I stopped here for an hour or so to do some calculations - just how badly off is someone fresh to PvP going to be versus someone who has maxed out gear? I logged onto my Mage, my main PvE character, since I had a passing knowledge of how all the stats worked, and by adding up the values for the various ranked gear sets, I found the following. The following numbers are focused only on vendor gear and weapons - it doesn't touch valour, runes, essences, trinket procs, the works. It's all armor, plus wand, plus 2h mage staff, plus synergy crystal bonus if applicable.

    Also, I'm not a mathematician, and this took a damn long while so I might have mixed up a few numbers in the spreadsheet, missed a few values, whatever - the main idea is still there.

    Code:
    'Set SP' and 'Set Health' refers to the inherent gear value + synergy crystal bonus.
    Pure SP is SP gained entirely from gear. Same for SC.
    Total SP is Pure SP + Set SP + Stat SP (Which is (WIS+INT)/2)
    Total SC is Pure SC + Stat SC (Which = INT)
    ChloroHealth is the default health bonus + the bonus from Raised in Nature (21% of INT added to END)
    C.S.Health is synergy crystal bonus + Chloromancer-augmented health.
    
    Difference: R5/6 vs. R7/8
    96	INT
    42	WIS
    102	END
    196	Pure SP
    105	Pure SC
    211     Total SC (8.44% crit)
    271	Set SP
    340	Total SP
    918	Health
    1098~	ChloroHealth
    1043	Set Health
    1223	C.S.Health
    
    Difference: R3/4 vs. R7/8
    174	INT
    66	WIS
    136	END
    309	Pure SP
    109	Pure SC
    283     Total SC (11.32% crit)
    434	Set SP
    554	Total SP
    1224	Health
    1537	ChloroHealth
    1474	Set Health
    1787	C.S.Health
    
    Difference: R1/2 vs. R7/8
    237	INT
    116	WIS
    148	END
    420	Pure SP
    169	Pure SC
    406     Total SC (16.24% crit)
    620	Set SP
    797	Total SP
    1332	Health
    1759	ChloroHealth
    1832	Set Health
    2259	C.S.Health
    To say that someone new to PvP is "bloody useless" now is an understatement. If you want to factor in the natural END that comes on a lot of Mage essences, R7/R8 mages probably have 2,000 or more health than a newbie, easily. The new guy is going to take 40% more damage relative to his fellows as well because he'll have no valour at all.

    tl;dr: Either we do something to equalize the playing field - cap the stats, buff everyone up to equal levels through an Ascended Courage-esque system, whatever - or we're going to go nowhere fast and balance will be a nightmare.
    Last edited by Furienify; 08-22-2011 at 12:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player0ne View Post
    This thread screams, " I'm glad healing is getting nerfed..now please dont quit healing us."

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    Thanks for putting that together. Pretty much explains a large chunk of the problems for pvp "balance".

  3. #3
    Ascendant -Swag-'s Avatar
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    Haven't bothered to point it out because it's so obvious. We're six months in and we've already got mudflation out the ***. In another six months, the only way Trion is going to be able to add gear to the game is by introducing new, stupid stats (First one will be crit damage bonus. Won't that be fun?) or instituting across-the-board devaluations of existing stats (ex: Instead of STR giving .75 AP, 1 parry and 1 block, it'll give .5AP, .75 parry and .75 block)
    Last edited by -Swag-; 08-22-2011 at 12:15 PM.

  4. #4
    Sword of Telara paper's Avatar
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    Giving everyone a straight 20% damage reduction in pvp, then reducing the effect of valor by 50% would be a decent start. Would make a raid geared player equal in mitigation to someone wearing rank 3/4 gear but have better offensive stats.
    Storytime - Breaking Bads

  5. #5
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    Yet another reason why mmo character development is healthier to go horizontal rather than vertical.

    Allow players more options as they progress rather than simple power increases.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furienify View Post
    And I'm surprised that I haven't seen anyone point this out yet. And it's getting ridiculous.

    Prior to 1.4, I suppose even with the healing nerf (Cleric here, by the by) I felt that PvP was 'alright'. Things could still use some tweaking - lingering wounds, perhaps, or fear bombs, but these were all somewhat complicated to balance neatly so I didn't mind. Perhaps this is just me fondly remembering a better time, but I felt that the game was slightly balanced then, especially compared to now.

    However, with 1.4 and the additions of R7 and R8, that was blown violently out of the water. It's power creep. Most of the problems being complained about here, I've noticed, can all tie back to the addition of new gear or gearsets - Assassin bleeds, invulnerable Clerics, invulnerable Chloromancers, 10k health Chloromancers, Chloromancers/Clerics topping both dmg/healing charts, Cabalist nukes wrecking entire groups, Stormcaller nukes wrecking entire groups, warriors killing you with a sneeze. Our ceiling is too damn high, and the floor feels like it's subterranean by comparison. I'm talking inherent, systematic and mechanical flaws here - not class balanced issues. To rattle a few off the top of my head:

    - Gear set bonuses. They're a new thing, but for each class they give anywhere from 250-500 health and 75-200 sp. I think it's double the AP for rogues/warriors, but I'm not sure.

    - Weapon DPS difference. Compare the following:
    r5 Warrior 2hander, 44.1dps
    r7 Warrior 1hander, 44.5dps

    Yes, between the two items, there are definitely stat differences. But once you get the rest of the r7/r8 gear, that's more than made up for - in the end, a sword/board warrior can pull off as much damage in PvP as an r5/6 2hander, if not more. (Albeit in different ways given how Champ/Para/Rb works)

    - Gear Discrepancy.
    I stopped here for an hour or so to do some calculations - just how badly off is someone fresh to PvP going to be versus someone who has maxed out gear? I logged onto my Mage, my main PvE character, since I had a passing knowledge of how all the stats worked, and by adding up the values for the various ranked gear sets, I found the following. The following numbers are focused only on vendor gear and weapons - it doesn't touch valour, runes, essences, trinket procs, the works. It's all armor, plus wand, plus 2h mage staff, plus synergy crystal bonus if applicable.

    Also, I'm not a mathematician, and this took a damn long while so I might have mixed up a few numbers in the spreadsheet, missed a few values, whatever - the main idea is still there.

    Code:
    'Set SP' and 'Set Health' refers to the inherent gear value + synergy crystal bonus.
    Pure SP is SP gained entirely from gear. Same for SC.
    Total SP is Pure SP + Set SP + Stat SP (Which is (WIS+INT)/2)
    Total SC is Pure SC + Stat SC (Which = INT)
    ChloroHealth is the default health bonus + the bonus from Raised in Nature (21% of INT added to END)
    C.S.Health is synergy crystal bonus + Chloromancer-augmented health.
    
    Difference: R5/6 vs. R7/8
    96	INT
    42	WIS
    102	END
    196	Pure SP
    105	Pure SC
    211     Total SC (8.44% crit)
    271	Set SP
    340	Total SP
    918	Health
    1098~	ChloroHealth
    1043	Set Health
    1223	C.S.Health
    
    Difference: R3/4 vs. R7/8
    174	INT
    66	WIS
    136	END
    309	Pure SP
    109	Pure SC
    283     Total SC (11.32% crit)
    434	Set SP
    554	Total SP
    1224	Health
    1537	ChloroHealth
    1474	Set Health
    1787	C.S.Health
    
    Difference: R1/2 vs. R7/8
    237	INT
    116	WIS
    148	END
    420	Pure SP
    169	Pure SC
    406     Total SC (16.24% crit)
    620	Set SP
    797	Total SP
    1332	Health
    1759	ChloroHealth
    1832	Set Health
    2259	C.S.Health
    To say that someone new to PvP is "bloody useless" now is an understatement. If you want to factor in the natural END that comes on a lot of Mage essences, R7/R8 mages probably have 2,000 or more health than a newbie, easily. The new guy is going to take 40% more damage relative to his fellows as well because he'll have no valour at all.

    tl;dr: Either we do something to equalize the playing field - cap the stats, buff everyone up to equal levels through an Ascended Courage-esque system, whatever - or we're going to go nowhere fast and balance will be a nightmare.
    No.

    There are HK weapons with amazing +hit.

    Mages and Clerics have amazing survivability, these R8 weapons (hopefully) now give the Rogue calling a legitimate burst. If one grinds to get there, he's earned it, sorry.

    If you played a R6+ Rogue, and tried to DPS other R6+ callings, you'd know.
    Last edited by kdps; 08-22-2011 at 12:23 PM.

  7. #7
    Sword of Telara Furienify's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdps View Post
    No.

    There are HK weapons with amazing +hit.

    Mages and Clerics have amazing survivability, these R8 weapons (hopefully) now give the Rogue calling a legitimate burst. If one grinds to get there, he's earned it, sorry.

    If you played a R6+ Rogue, and tried to DPS other R6+ callings, you'd know.
    It's a pity I don't regard balance in a vacuum that focuses solely on how rogues fare against other classes.

    What, exactly, does +hit have to do with anything? You don't need much of it in PvP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player0ne View Post
    This thread screams, " I'm glad healing is getting nerfed..now please dont quit healing us."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furienify View Post
    It's a pity I don't regard balance in a vacuum that focuses solely on how rogues fare against other classes.

    What, exactly, does +hit have to do with anything? You don't need much of it in PvP.
    Na, of course you wouldn't see the light since you don't mind them when they're attacking you. In fact, you could probably self heal yourself and /laugh at the same time.

    Oh wait, let's say WFs there are those with HK items, where do the pvpers counter then? Not much foresight despite your obviously, well thought out, long post.

    +hit? You don't know jack about Sidesteps, Dodge, etc.
    Last edited by kdps; 08-22-2011 at 12:33 PM.

  9. #9
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furienify View Post
    It's a pity I don't regard balance in a vacuum that focuses solely on how rogues fare against other classes.

    What, exactly, does +hit have to do with anything? You don't need much of it in PvP.
    Should actually run with at least 100 hit for PvP. The fact that you need it, but it isn't on PvP gear is dumb.

    On the other hand, it is also dumb that it renders my Side Steps and whatnot useless as well. Trion really screwed the pooch with PvE and PvP stats.
    Last edited by Calo; 08-22-2011 at 12:46 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furienify View Post
    It's a pity I don't regard balance in a vacuum that focuses solely on how rogues fare against other classes.

    What, exactly, does +hit have to do with anything? You don't need much of it in PvP.
    Go find someone raiding HK that has 320+ Hit. Challenge them to a duel and pop a defensive CD like Sidesteps or Bend Like the Reed.

    The results may surprise you.
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  11. #11
    Sword of Telara Furienify's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdps View Post
    Na, of course you wouldn't see the light since you don't mind them when they're attacking you. In fact, you could probably self heal yourself and /laugh at the same time.

    Oh wait, let's say WFs there are those with HK items, where do the pvpers counter then? Not much foresight despite your obviously, well thought out, long post.

    +hit? You don't know jack about Sidesteps, Dodge, etc.
    I know how hit works, hence the

    Quote Originally Posted by Furienify View Post
    You don't need much of it in PvP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furienify View Post
    much
    It's not as universal of a game-breaker as it is in PvE. I take it you're trying to say that power creep, at least on the PvE side of things, is adversely affecting Rogues and anyone else with dodge/block/resist/etc cooldowns in PvP?
    Quote Originally Posted by Player0ne View Post
    This thread screams, " I'm glad healing is getting nerfed..now please dont quit healing us."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furienify View Post
    I know how hit works, hence the





    It's not as universal of a game-breaker as it is in PvE. I take it you're trying to say that power creep, at least on the PvE side of things, is adversely affecting Rogues and anyone else with dodge/block/resist/etc cooldowns in PvP?
    What I am saying is the R8 weapons should (hopefully) finally allow dps bursts to be effective for rogues when it comes to R6+ vs R6+

    We're not talking about PoS here and dominating lower tier players ok, I can do that with 29 dps daggers and 36 dps ranged, in pve gear.

    R6+ vs R6+

    And they had to do something to mimic the HK items for pvpers.
    Last edited by kdps; 08-22-2011 at 01:01 PM.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple
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    I made a thread about mudflation being out of control like 2 months ago :X

    The game designers came from EQ though, so no surprises.

  14. #14
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    Just wait until 1.5!

    Imagine how imbalanced things will be when they introduce AA skills into the game.

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