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Thread: You have Selection Bias

  1. #1
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    Default You have Selection Bias

    Guys, the nerf warriors threads have gotten ridiculous.

    You know what I think needs nerfed? Whatever specs that clerics use to top both damage and healing in the same game. It happens often enough to be noticeable.

    But that's really beside the point. The gear problem in this game is so bad that I don't know how anyone can even pass judgement on class balance at this point. I could be wrong about the clerics just as easily as I think the continuing cries for nerfing warriors are wrong right now.

    So I want you all to engage your brains for a moment. You know the reason you think warriors are overpowered? It's because warriors are the only ones that have to stand next to you to kill you. How many people do you think check their combat logs to see who killed them when a AOE knocks them down, or they're focus fired by 6 different ranged attackers, or when the Stormcaller finisher hits them for 5000 damage? (Okay, so if you have any sense at all, you probably at least check for that last one.)

    When a warrior attacks you, his name and his character are right on top of you in the field of view you're already paying attention to. He's noticeable. He's probably taller than you, and wider than you, and he's makes you pay attention to him because of all the visual chaos he causes in front of you. This as opposed to the marksman behind him who is the one that *actually* killed you because you were distracted by a warrior.

    Part of the reason that there are people crying over warriors killing them is because they see the warrior 100% of the time when the warrior kills them, and they're seeing the others at a rate that's certainly smaller than that, possibly much smaller than that. Furthermore, if the warrior has a pocket healer, I would attribute his kill to that healer instead of the warrior as well, in spite of the fact that the warrior is the weapon extension of that healer. (My brother cheerily refers to DPS as his "pets" all the time for this reason, and he's right).

    Something to consider.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Nerf warriors please.

    (I keed I keed)

    If anyone bothered to level such a boring class, I seriously wouldn't want to take their damage away.

    I simply don't care for their great cc ability. They do high damage, have great mobility and closers AND great cc. Something has got to give.

    You wanna keep the damage, then the other two has to be lowered in effectiveness.
    You need your closers, then cc needs to be lowered, removed or limited and possibly a damage (iffy subject), you want to keep your ccs, then that damage needs to take a nose dive.


    But having all 3 is what people are *****ing about. My personal problem is the cc and the 'it's damn near impossible to get away from wars' dealy, which is more so a DR problem rather than a war problem, but since dr is here to stay, then the closers need to be looked at.

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    Rift Master Shannae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    But having all 3 is what people are *****ing about. My personal problem is the cc and the 'it's damn near impossible to get away from wars' dealy, which is more so a DR problem rather than a war problem, but since dr is here to stay, then the closers need to be looked at.
    My experience has been that the DR system is fairly broken, and for some reason most of the broken ones are on warriors. Earth Burst, for example, isn't being counted as a snare, therefore doesn't trigger the DR. Battlefield Intimidation ahs been reported in duel tests to trigger DR only half the time. Hell, I've personally been chain feared through my break free for 15 seconds straight.

    We can't really comment on a Warriors CC strength when the DR that is supposed to be protecting us, isn't working, and the DR that is protecting them, IS.
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  4. #4
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    All that needs to change on warriors is fear being dispellable, and lingering wounds only reducing the next heal so it's not AoE-and-forget.

    Earth Burst is bugged and horrendously overpowered, that's not a balance fix.
    Riftwalk is bugged and horrendously overpowered, that's not a balance fix.

    /end every thread on the subject.

  5. #5
    Eks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lluluien View Post
    Guys, the nerf warriors threads have gotten ridiculous.

    You know what I think needs nerfed? Whatever specs that clerics use to top both damage and healing in the same game. It happens often enough to be noticeable.

    But that's really beside the point. The gear problem in this game is so bad that I don't know how anyone can even pass judgement on class balance at this point. I could be wrong about the clerics just as easily as I think the continuing cries for nerfing warriors are wrong right now.

    So I want you all to engage your brains for a moment. You know the reason you think warriors are overpowered? It's because warriors are the only ones that have to stand next to you to kill you. How many people do you think check their combat logs to see who killed them when a AOE knocks them down, or they're focus fired by 6 different ranged attackers, or when the Stormcaller finisher hits them for 5000 damage? (Okay, so if you have any sense at all, you probably at least check for that last one.)

    When a warrior attacks you, his name and his character are right on top of you in the field of view you're already paying attention to. He's noticeable. He's probably taller than you, and wider than you, and he's makes you pay attention to him because of all the visual chaos he causes in front of you. This as opposed to the marksman behind him who is the one that *actually* killed you because you were distracted by a warrior.

    Part of the reason that there are people crying over warriors killing them is because they see the warrior 100% of the time when the warrior kills them, and they're seeing the others at a rate that's certainly smaller than that, possibly much smaller than that. Furthermore, if the warrior has a pocket healer, I would attribute his kill to that healer instead of the warrior as well, in spite of the fact that the warrior is the weapon extension of that healer. (My brother cheerily refers to DPS as his "pets" all the time for this reason, and he's right).

    Something to consider.
    Give those of us that argue coherently for nerfs to particular warrior abilities some credit. We've played other games, some of us have played many other games and are certainly capable of noticing unbalanced abilities regardless of whether they come from melee or ranged characters.

    Heck, the ones I'm concerned about tweaking are not usually even applied to me (lw, fear, charge), and are certainly not dps abilities.

  6. #6
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    Idd

    its all the other easy to obtain low/no cooldown abilities. The perma teleports, charges, fears, silences, heal debuffs. No dps is lost by speccing for utility. There needs to be a tradeoff.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Nerf warriors please.

    (I keed I keed)

    If anyone bothered to level such a boring class, I seriously wouldn't want to take their damage away.

    I simply don't care for their great cc ability. They do high damage, have great mobility and closers AND great cc. Something has got to give.

    You wanna keep the damage, then the other two has to be lowered in effectiveness.
    You need your closers, then cc needs to be lowered, removed or limited and possibly a damage (iffy subject), you want to keep your ccs, then that damage needs to take a nose dive.


    But having all 3 is what people are *****ing about. My personal problem is the cc and the 'it's damn near impossible to get away from wars' dealy, which is more so a DR problem rather than a war problem, but since dr is here to stay, then the closers need to be looked at.

    We didn't keep the damage, and I'd trade Battlefield Intimidation to get it back. That skill has been horribly unreliable for me (I see claims that the DR doesn't affect it, but that seems counter to my experience with it when I hit it and nothing happens). I'd argue that people's poor experience with this skill is the same selection bias I'm talking about. You see immune messages when you miss with YOUR CC, but you do NOT see MY immune messages when I miss with MY CC.

    My damage is so horribly broken after the nerf a couple hotfixes ago that I switched to a S&B control spec, which makes my damage less than half what it was in my other spec even after the patch (granted, this is modified by the ridiculous gear problems right now since I'm only R3, but I did state in my original post that I think the calls for nerfs right now are unwarranted until this problem is fixed). I do feel like I'm more of an asset to my team, but if you're complaining about the CC from one S&B warrior and the damage from a 2h/2-weapon warrior, then you're imagining some jabberwocky with 84 skill points to spend. That'd like me complaining about a Chlorolock hitting me with the -5000 damage Stormcaller finisher.

  8. #8
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    Leave Warrior/Cleric/Mage alone until you fix rogue and bring it back in balance. Once rogues are respectable again and not just KB fodder, there might be less and less complaints about warriors.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lluluien View Post
    The gear problem in this game is so bad that I don't know how anyone can even pass judgement on class balance
    Hmm... the rare valid point.
    Last edited by -Swag-; 08-22-2011 at 12:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lluluien View Post
    We didn't keep the damage, and I'd trade Battlefield Intimidation to get it back. That skill has been horribly unreliable for me (I see claims that the DR doesn't affect it, but that seems counter to my experience with it when I hit it and nothing happens). I'd argue that people's poor experience with this skill is the same selection bias I'm talking about. You see immune messages when you miss with YOUR CC, but you do NOT see MY immune messages when I miss with MY CC.

    My damage is so horribly broken after the nerf a couple hotfixes ago that I switched to a S&B control spec, which makes my damage less than half what it was in my other spec even after the patch (granted, this is modified by the ridiculous gear problems right now since I'm only R3, but I did state in my original post that I think the calls for nerfs right now are unwarranted until this problem is fixed). I do feel like I'm more of an asset to my team, but if you're complaining about the CC from one S&B warrior and the damage from a 2h/2-weapon warrior, then you're imagining some jabberwocky with 84 skill points to spend. That'd like me complaining about a Chlorolock hitting me with the -5000 damage Stormcaller finisher.
    I can only comment on my end of the interwebz and with múltiple warriors within the vicinity, I'm cc'd constantly. I do look up the skills that hit me and I keep seeing the same skill being used without let up. I simply have to hope that they are all on cd before I can act again.

    If I'm running from a warrior, assuming they aren't still hitting me from ranged and/or bludgeon with multi attacks that take a nice portion of my hp, I have to deal with a knee in my back multiple times and low and behold, I most likely will start running around, hands in the air, falling back and forth, like a moron, because I'm feared again and am being beaten on while still feared.

    I dunno. The damage was never my issue. The cc and múltiple closers were
    Last edited by Eughe; 08-22-2011 at 12:19 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shannae View Post
    We can't really comment on a Warriors CC strength when the DR that is supposed to be protecting us, isn't working, and the DR that is protecting them, IS.
    Warriors have their CC-change bugs too. Riftwalk, for example, is supposed to break all CC effects but doesn't work vs (most? all?) control.

    And (shocking!!) Warriors get hit by other Warriors' abilities too.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lluluien View Post
    We didn't keep the damage, and I'd trade Battlefield Intimidation to get it back. That skill has been horribly unreliable for me (I see claims that the DR doesn't affect it, but that seems counter to my experience with it when I hit it and nothing happens). I'd argue that people's poor experience with this skill is the same selection bias I'm talking about. You see immune messages when you miss with YOUR CC, but you do NOT see MY immune messages when I miss with MY CC.
    This is actually an interesting point, and not from a psychology, selection bias standpoint. I can't actually remember seeing an ability I am immune to scroll down in my combat numbers. And they should.

    Think on it. Does anyone actually see defensive immune messages? Hell, we don't even get incoming damage numbers when they're fully absorbed, now that I think on it. That's a simple change that could mitigate perception problems (and absorb reporting would also be nice to gauge shielding effectiveness in parsers).
    "You're right. Technically he has the right to cry about it. And I have the right to mock him for crying about something stupid." ~Bridgeburner
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Swag- View Post
    Warriors have their CC-change bugs too. Riftwalk, for example, is supposed to break all CC effects but doesn't work vs (most? all?) control.

    And (shocking!!) Warriors get hit by other Warriors' abilities too.
    Which just exasperates the problem. Along with the thing I just posted above this reply.
    "You're right. Technically he has the right to cry about it. And I have the right to mock him for crying about something stupid." ~Bridgeburner
    "Try to hate other people less, you might enjoy life more." ~Tenet

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  14. #14
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    I think the general *reasonable person* consensus is that the problems with warriors actually have nothing to do with their damage. Their damage can be rough, but it is the inability to EVER escape them that is driving people crazy.

    Being stunned for 2 seconds, having to blow a defensive CD, rooting the warrior, running away, being teleported to (which breaks the root), stunned again, knocking the warrior back, hitting OtD and running away, being teleported to and hit again to finally be finished off, then just watching that warrior Riftwalk to someone else and repeat the process is really pissing people off. And it should. Riftwalk is totally ****ing OP right now, and needs to be adjusted. NOT REMOVED, NOT DESTROYED, just adjusted to keep "oh **** that warrior noticed me" from being a certain death sentence for 80% of the people in a warfront.

    Healers and Dom's can be infuriating, but only the really good ones. The problem right now is any PR4 or above warrior can really do some unspeakable things to mages and rogues with very little skill/effort. Riftwalk needs work, so it is not such a crutch for bad warriors. The good ones will hopefully still be able to use it to make your life a living hell, just not the bad ones.

    Also has anybody else noticed Warfronts being a bit more competitive since they rolled people back? I see a lot fewer PR8's owning the battlefield lately.... hmmm.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Swag- View Post
    Warriors have their CC-change bugs too. Riftwalk, for example, is supposed to break all CC effects but doesn't work vs (most? all?) control.

    And (shocking!!) Warriors get hit by other Warriors' abilities too.
    Riftwalk is reliable for me for everything except fear (which it never breaks, but it specifically shows a list in the tooltip and that list does not include fear), and one of the rogue stuns (I believe it's one that's broken by damage, which probably isn't classified as a stun, and therefore also not in the list).

    I actually think Riftwalk is working properly according to the tooltip, though I did wish it would break Fear. However, if everyone else has as much trouble with Battlefield Intimidation as they say, it's perfectly reasonable for it to not break fear I think.

    I find it reasonable for it not to break the other incapacitate as well since the opponent can't beat the snot out of me under the effects of that one anyway. Annoying? Yes. Potentially enormous tactical advantage? Only if their team coordinates with it very well, or it's a very small fight. Team coordination *should* be rewarded, and the small fight bit should occur fairly infrequently if everyone's fighting over objectives.

    I'm a warrior, and I'll say Riftwalk is already a good skill; it doesn't need to be any better.

    BTW to all the mages/clerics - how many of you actually use the -15% crit PVP soul talent? You'd be amazed how much that hamstrings half of the warrior mechanics. I don't know if your calling's standard builds use three non-PVP souls, but if they do, you should strongly consider giving one of them up for this talent. You'll only get Riftwalked half as often against someone in insanely good gear, and only once every 45 seconds by someone that's in R3-R4 or less. Same goes for Lingering Wounds - only once per Proper Timing (which most Champ off-spec builds dont even have) if you're at -15% crits received.

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