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Thread: The warfronts and maths and overpowered classes game

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    Funny I know many rogues that eat chloro/lock for breakfast. You must not have eradicate on your cast bar ... It's cool though, not everyone can drag and drop.
    You're playing with/against terrible mages then.

    I see also your assumptions are unfounded and usually stupid.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    See how you get on.

    For each side you get:

    4 points for a cleric
    3 points for a warrior
    3 points for a chlorolock
    2 points for a mage that isn't chlorolock
    1 point for a rogue

    Add them up. I'll bet you highest value wins the WF 9/10 times. See how you get on - its rather accurate so far.
    Sure, I'll take 16 rogues in Whitefall steppes against your 4 clerics.
    And I bet anything I have that we get the achievement for winning in less than 9 minutes

    Jokes aside, you're missing a lot on that theory.
    People's ranks, people specs, people skills, map played.
    DPS clerics aren't worth 4 points.
    Since they added cabalist FOTM, I've seen 1 cleric, just ONE, that was a serious beast. I can honestly say that he's the only cleric I'd take as a cabalist rather than a healer.
    For everyone else, DPS clerics aren't as good as a mage. Maybe even as a rogue.

    And then, ranks. Don't think I need to tell much about it.
    And then, skills. I often out DPS/outkill higher ranked people, or warriors, on my mage.
    And finally, map.
    Rogues are worth just 1 point on whitefall steppes, really?
    I've seen rogues ( I have a few specific names in mind ) win that map by themselves.


    All that being said, I'd like to see an actual study about it.
    The results over a few 100's of warfronts or something.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    You're playing with/against terrible mages then.

    I see also your assumptions are unfounded and usually stupid.
    Maybe or quite possibly the opposite is true in which the rogue is playing badly. As every other post you make has a 'rogues are so bad' connotation ... I'll let the readers decide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    Maybe or quite possibly the opposite is true in which the rogue is playing badly. As every other post you make has a 'rogues are so bad' connotation ... I'll let the readers decide.
    I've played chlorolock - its jaw droppingly easy and overpowered.

    keeping track of the numbers now and my initial figs looking prety accurate close on 100 scenarios played now and its accurate in the high 80s atm.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    I've played chlorolock - its jaw droppingly easy and overpowered.

    keeping track of the numbers now and my initial figs looking prety accurate close on 100 scenarios played now and its accurate in the high 80s atm.
    Could you go slow for me, and explain why a spec that heals itself for over 65% of its total healing and gets around 100k damage per KB is somehow a DPS or healing asset to his team?

    You might have trouble killing a chlorolock 1v1 and it's a good solo spec for mages due to its survivability, but it does not have burst-on-demand healing for sustaining someone (other than itself) through focus fire, and it does not have DPS burst to kill people through reasonable heals in WFs. In other words it is a tank spec, and if that's the guy your team is focusing 1st than now you know why you are losing.
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  6. #36
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    There is no perfect science to it, ranks/gearing have a huge effect, but you can general look at both sides, count the rogues and if there is a large imbalance (say 7-3) the team with more rogues generally loses. You don't usually look at the classes before a game and say "crap we got 7 mages, they only got 3, we're screwed".

    I think his numbers for clerics are high and he should separate healing clerics from dps clerics, but from my personal experience, I would say that as a "most likely" system it is roughly accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hethroin View Post
    Could you go slow for me, and explain why a spec that heals itself for over 65% of its total healing and gets around 100k damage per KB is somehow a DPS or healing asset to his team?

    You might have trouble killing a chlorolock 1v1 and it's a good solo spec for mages due to its survivability, but it does not have burst-on-demand healing for sustaining someone (other than itself) through focus fire, and it does not have DPS burst to kill people through reasonable heals in WFs. In other words it is a tank spec, and if that's the guy your team is focusing 1st than now you know why you are losing.
    Theres never just one - it is the OP'd fotm mage spec. Yes its a tank spec - with dps and healing.
    Last edited by Auchter; 08-24-2011 at 08:27 AM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    Theres never just one - it is the OP'd fotm mage spec. Yes its a tank spec - with dps and healing.
    Seriously you have 1403 posts of endless whines about every other class except the poor, neglected and under powered rogue. Every class is superior and it's only by your true grit and determination of playing the poor forgotten rogue that you manage to eek out any kills at all. Surely there is something more important you can do with your time?
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse View Post
    There is no perfect science to it, ranks/gearing have a huge effect, but you can general look at both sides, count the rogues and if there is a large imbalance (say 7-3) the team with more rogues generally loses. You don't usually look at the classes before a game and say "crap we got 7 mages, they only got 3, we're screwed".

    I think his numbers for clerics are high and he should separate healing clerics from dps clerics, but from my personal experience, I would say that as a "most likely" system it is roughly accurate.
    To be honest I think the "team with the most rogue loses" tends to be that a lot of rogues play really crappy specs or tend to try to be James Bond and do their own thing. If you had 7 rogues and had 2 rift stalker bards and 5 marksman with a little cleric and warrior support then you are going to have a very tough team to beat.

  10. #40
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    I'd take an all rogue team over a no rogue team any day.

    I have a flag runner. I have a bard. I have people who can stop caps. I can have multiple people burst from stealth and burn a flag carrier / tank an objective.

  11. #41
    Champion of Telara Hethroin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hethroin View Post
    Could you go slow for me, and explain why a spec that heals itself for over 65% of its total healing and gets around 100k damage per KB is somehow a DPS or healing asset to his team?

    You might have trouble killing a chlorolock 1v1 and it's a good solo spec for mages due to its survivability, but it does not have burst-on-demand healing for sustaining someone (other than itself) through focus fire, and it does not have DPS burst to kill people through reasonable heals in WFs. In other words it is a tank spec, and if that's the guy your team is focusing 1st than now you know why you are losing.
    Theres never just one - it is the OP'd fotm mage spec. Yes its a tank spec - with dps and healing.
    Are you even reading the question?

    How is this spec useful to his team, when his healing is mostly reserved for himself, because he has to stand within 30 of a squishy-enough enemy to heal, and thus gets targeted, anything his team gets is incidental?

    The burst-damage they do is very much laughable from a "try and heal through this!" perspective:
    Slow-cast nukes, dots, AE dots, Slow-cast nukes that make dots, and ROFL PBAE Dots. 1k crit AE tics every 2 seconds with 1800 spell power...

    Nature's Fury is the only hard hitting nuke in the spec, and has 1.5 second cast time when speced (2.5 lol otherwise lol) and is on a 6 second recast timer so it can't be spammed. This nuke also heals for 80% less than other life nukes because it has an AE bounce component.

    So I ask again why is a chlorolock OP by your standards when all they bring to a group is a body that can take more focus fire than other mage specs, while being able to AE heal at about .4 wardens? I would guess a Bad + Riftstalker + NB combo probably does the exact same trick, while also bringing better raid buffs.

    If you want to discuss the burst damage potential of a 51 warlock that's fine, or the healing potential of a 51 Chloro that's fine too, but you cannot combine the 2 souls into one discussion and call the hybrid OP because it performs at about 40% burst-damage (NOTE THE WORD "BURST") capacity of a full lock, and about 60% healing capacity of a full chloro.

    All that being said, I run this spec all the time when healing is very low in WFs, and I play it like a tank: Get agro, hold agro, peel via taunt (aka heals in pvp); I call it a "job well done" when I have the most damage taken in a WF or if my healing taken is less than 50% of healing done.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hethroin View Post
    Are you even reading the question?

    How is this spec useful to his team, when his healing is mostly reserved for himself, because he has to stand within 30 of a squishy-enough enemy to heal, and thus gets targeted, anything his team gets is incidental?

    The burst-damage they do is very much laughable from a "try and heal through this!" perspective:
    Slow-cast nukes, dots, AE dots, Slow-cast nukes that make dots, and ROFL PBAE Dots. 1k crit AE tics every 2 seconds with 1800 spell power...

    Nature's Fury is the only hard hitting nuke in the spec, and has 1.5 second cast time when speced (2.5 lol otherwise lol) and is on a 6 second recast timer so it can't be spammed. This nuke also heals for 80% less than other life nukes because it has an AE bounce component.

    So I ask again why is a chlorolock OP by your standards when all they bring to a group is a body that can take more focus fire than other mage specs, while being able to AE heal at about .4 wardens? I would guess a Bad + Riftstalker + NB combo probably does the exact same trick, while also bringing better raid buffs.

    If you want to discuss the burst damage potential of a 51 warlock that's fine, or the healing potential of a 51 Chloro that's fine too, but you cannot combine the 2 souls into one discussion and call the hybrid OP because it performs at about 40% burst-damage (NOTE THE WORD "BURST") capacity of a full lock, and about 60% healing capacity of a full chloro.

    All that being said, I run this spec all the time when healing is very low in WFs, and I play it like a tank: Get agro, hold agro, peel via taunt (aka heals in pvp); I call it a "job well done" when I have the most damage taken in a WF or if my healing taken is less than 50% of healing done.
    You don't grasp whats wrong in having a high health, high dps, high healing, tank cloth wearer. Oh my.....

  13. #43
    Rift Disciple Sao like Mayo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    You don't grasp whats wrong in having a high health, high dps, high healing, tank cloth wearer. Oh my.....
    1) You're oblivious, there is no high DPS at all. End of story. If you are dying to Devouring Shadows then you are bad.

    2) There is minimal burst healing, and the chlorolock is generally saving that for themselves.

    3) Every other calling has a tank spec, we should have one too.

    4) Sounds like an l2p issue, oh my....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sao like Mayo View Post
    1) You're oblivious, there is no high DPS at all. End of story. If you are dying to Devouring Shadows then you are bad.

    2) There is minimal burst healing, and the chlorolock is generally saving that for themselves.

    3) Every other calling has a tank spec, we should have one too.

    4) Sounds like an l2p issue, oh my....
    When the majority of mages are this spec, and the mages I play with openly refer to it as 'the overpowered pvp spec' then I think you're fighting a rearguard action to avoid being nerfed.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    When the majority of mages are this spec, and the mages I play with openly refer to it as 'the overpowered pvp spec' then I think you're fighting a rearguard action to avoid being nerfed.
    Or you are playing with bad mages who dont understand what is important in group pvp.

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