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Thread: 50+ Rift PvP is not accessible to new players.

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser Lunacresia's Avatar
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    Default 50+ Rift PvP is not accessible to new players.

    This is an obvious problem, but the wide gap between prestige ranks 1 and 8 is large to the point where 50 PvP is virtually inaccessible to fresh 50s.

    PvP Rift is starting to turn into a mile high club that is dominated by P6 players and P8s that have started since headstart or have exploited the PvP rifts to quickly gain prestige.

    As shown in various other threads, the large division between ranks leads to very little competitive play and usually results in one sided battles the result in crushing defeats because of gear domination, or farm fests in which half of the dominated team AFKs at the start because they don't want to feed a premade P8 team favor.

    I play from the perspective of a P6 cleric and a P1 raiding warrior. The difference when swapping between these toons and attempting to access PVP on my P1 raiding character is a very sour experience at best. On my valor cranked P6 cleric, things are a bit better and I do see more competitive play.

    The problem with Rift PvP is that it is very grind based, almost as bad as it is in Aion. Gear domination is outright out of control with the valor system and players have to sink in an immense amount of time in order to reach the mile high club and experience worthwhile PvP.

    Many PvP players are coming from high action games that require very little customization and instantly provide a competitive environment. Guildwars is an example of a non-grind based game that had this type of successful PvP.

    PvP in Rift is nearly impossible for new players to access for many because a large majority of Rift subscribers are casual players who don't have time to spend months grinding prestige gear and getting farmed by higher P8s just to be on an even playing field/and or really decide if endgame PvP in Rift will work for them.

    Although the PvE and raiding aspect of Rift is very successful. I feel that the large majority of players that attempt to access PvP in Rift hit a steel wall of grind and have to spend the entire duration of that grind period being oppressed by players that have been in the mile high club for a long time. New players come into WFs suffering crushing defeats one after the other, experience nothing but getting one-shotted by blatantly overpowered R8 players who can kill them in GCD, or spend an entire WF at the spawn point getting farmed by a premade.

    Many of the friends that I have attempted to pull into PvP as new players are easily discouraged by how much the geared elite and prestige ranked groups dominate the field and feel that it's not worth putting the time into accessing PvP.

    This has resulted in a PvP community that is dominated by cliques of P6+ players. The majority of new players that try to get into PvP are discouraged by lower rank domination and either join raiding guilds, transfer to PvE servers, or play another game to satisfy their PvP impulses.

    As it stands, the PvP community in Rift has turned into a gear dominated clique of high ranking players in which there are very few instances where players fight on an even playing field. New players are simply discouraged because of what they experience when they first step into the 50 bracket and rather than promoting skill based PvP and placing PvPers on an easier to access equal playing field in which gear isn't the focus, Rift has done the complete opposite.

    Gear in PvP is fine, but not to the extent that it is in Rift. New players don't even stand a chance and the difference that valor imbalances the entire experience. The few times when skill comes into play results from the moments where P6s and P8s engage each other, which just a small handful of the PvP community.

    Personally, I enjoy rift but PvP just seems like a carrot on a stick race for gear. Rather than jumping into a WF and having good competitive play, I simply get gear checked half of the time. The amount of time that PvP requires someone to sink into it in order to reach competitive levels is nearly impossible to balance with raiding.

    The current setup for PvP makes it:

    -Impossible for new players to enjoy quick and competitive instances of PvP combat.
    -Forces players to grind for gear in order to be accepted and consider a viable threat in the PvP community.
    -Makes it hard to enjoy both the raiding aspect and PvP aspect of the game due to the amount of dedication that each path takes. Many players find themselves having to choose between the two, and personally I'm going to raid. I don't see relic weapons and new content spilling out of the PvP vendor.
    -The initial post 50 experience turns off many players and compels them to play other games to satisfy PvP urges.
    -Has created a massive division in the community between PvPers and casuals/raiders. If your not P6+ you really don't belong in PvP. If you want to get into PvP you better drop everything your doing and grind like a mad man, eat the losses and suck up the domination, and force your way there. PvP in Rift requires as much dedication as raiding, if not more.
    -Getting gear checked in PvP, in which player skill vs. player skill should be the main focus, is silly.


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    TL;DR

    PvP is a bad experience for new players because of PvP gear scaling and the division between prestige ranks. New players going into PvP post 50 and experiencing the horrible grind and domination that they will when trying to be competitive will be compelled to quit or find something better to do (like raid). If a system sucks, people will avoid it. Things need to change, otherwise PvP will continue to be dominated by the handful of high-ranks, new players will simply just get gear check coming in and quit PvP.
    Last edited by Lunacresia; 08-20-2011 at 12:31 PM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    I could see this being quite true. I am certainly not a fresh 50, but i did just recently start PvPing and i can understand the OP's point here. If i had not started with a full set of T1 raid gear, i can't imagine how frustrating it would have been. I got owned constantly anyway, but at least i felt like i could put up some reasonable damage before i died. Now with about 500 Valor and a PvP spec i really like it has gotten far more enjoyable, but a fresh 50 i expect would really have a tough time.

    My advice would be to do what i did, raid and gear yourself up before you jump into the PvP arena. Honestly even if there was not the PvP gear issue that there is, i expect fresh 50's would probably just get owned all day by people PvPing in raid gear. Fresh 50's really just can't compete with geared out 50's of any kind, but they really shouldn't be able to.
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  3. #3
    Rift Chaser Lunacresia's Avatar
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    Raid gear isn't gonna do anything for you in PvP. It's valor and valor alone that will keep you from being one shotted.

    I am in almost full t3 raid gear on my warrior and I still get blasted down by a Cabalist in less then 3-4 seconds. My P6 cleric takes forever to kill.

    Raid gear WILL NOT do anything for you in PvP except increase your damage. It doesn't stop you from being facemelted by a P6-P8 in less than 3 seconds.

  4. #4
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacresia View Post
    Raid gear isn't gonna do anything for you in PvP. It's valor and valor alone that will keep you from being one shotted.

    I am in almost full t3 raid gear on my warrior and I still get blasted down by a Cabalist in less then 3-4 seconds. My P6 cleric takes forever to kill.

    Raid gear WILL NOT do anything for you in PvP except increase your damage. It doesn't stop you from being facemelted by a P6-P8 in less than 3 seconds.
    Yeah, but if you're good, you will learn how to not take damage ;) Most people aren't that good though.

  5. #5
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    The OP was a bit long winded but I agree 100%, Trion I hope takes note of all this feedback and acts accordingly...soon! Good start would be to have a little chat with their PvP team and swat them around with a Rank 8 Warrior gauntlet!

  6. #6
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    I have an R2 rogue, and have never been in a WF (done alot of em since 50) where I have NEVER been 3 shotted by ANYONE. I play a bard/RS build, and have almost 5k hp fully buffed. In full R1/2 gear, the fastest I've ever been downed is by a warrior/rogue. One war takes me down in about 8 seconds, and a rogue MM takes me down in about 10. Other than that, I've actually been running a 34 BD/32 RS build and it's really sturdy, with about 4-4.5k hp self buffed. I can HONESTLY say that the disparity is exaggerated. As long as I don't play stupidly, it's a great experience.

    Edit: The reason people say it's insanely hard is cause they can't 1 vs 1 people, and can't ninja nodes or show off their leet skills.
    Last edited by Hartzekar; 08-20-2011 at 01:59 PM.
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  7. #7
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    All they really need to do is scale back the valor differences between the sets. This would allow pvp junkies to still get an edge but not so much that it is crippling to new players. As it stands now there is something like 3X more valor on a rank 6 than a rank 2. The gap is too large. On top of that, the mitigation is too large at like 40%? something ******ed high like that.

    Lets use pvp body as an example of how they could balance the situation. I'm not on game but currently the valor on a body is something like:

    Rank 2 - 30 valor,
    Rank 4 - 60 valor
    Rank 6 - 106 Valor.
    Rank 8 - 106 Same as rank 6

    If they just adjusted it to be something like:

    Rank 2 - 30 Valor
    Rank 4 - 40 Valor
    Rank 6 - 50 Valor
    Rank 8 - 60 Valor

    Then you still get an upgrade as you rank up, so those that pvp a lot still get an advantage. It will be more like an edge, rather than a chasm. The disparity between a rank 2 player and a rank 6 won't 300+% more pvp mitigation it would be 66%. I think an itemization change to valor gear more than anything would greatly improve the pvp experience for all players.

    P.S. Fix rogue. Thanks.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple FiestyInsanity's Avatar
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    I have to say I used to be one of the people who said "suck it up". Not anymore. A friend got me to reroll a warrior just to try melee fresh at 50, and got damn I must say it sucks.

    My cleric was easy I could sit back and just heal\dps, rogue same. Trying to play a melee class as a fresh 50 is horrid I'm not even hitting some of the people past double didgets with finishers.

    And to the people saying "suck it up still" yeah we get it we all went through it in some way. But no way in hell you went against these new r7/8's so don't come talk bullish cupcake cause its not the same.

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    I'm echoing what's been said here - it's tolerable if you can roll a support class and hide behind your own high ranked players, but as a warrior it is impossible.

    And if you're on a server where say, defiant outnumber guardian enormously, then you probably don't have any high ranked players to hide behind and the whole warfront concept is borked beyond saving.

  10. #10
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why the OP went about it in the way they did in making the loose comparisons between PvP and Raiding without addressing the obvious differences between the two.

    As a fresh 50, you do not head into HK to repeatedly lose fights until you get T1 geared. Then continue to lose fights until you're T2, etc, etc, etc - until you reach the point that you're ready to enter HK. There is a progression.

    That progression is lacking on the PvP side.

    Here was the summary, so to speak...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacresia View Post
    The current setup for PvP makes it:

    -Impossible for new players to enjoy quick and competitive instances of PvP combat.
    Fresh 50s on the PvE side are able to pursue a path of progression. Were there a form of progression on the PvP side, this issue would no longer exist.

    -Forces players to grind for gear in order to be accepted and consider a viable threat in the PvP community.
    Players on the PvE side are also forced to grind gear to be accepted in the raiding community. It really is not that much different - and it is perhaps even worse.

    -Makes it hard to enjoy both the raiding aspect and PvP aspect of the game due to the amount of dedication that each path takes. Many players find themselves having to choose between the two, and personally I'm going to raid. I don't see relic weapons and new content spilling out of the PvP vendor.
    It does not make it hard. It might slow it down, but that does not mean it is hard. Everything is done too quickly in RIFT as it is...if everybody that started on a Friday was able to hit R8 on a Saturday and finish HK on a Sunday, what would be the point?

    -The initial post 50 experience turns off many players and compels them to play other games to satisfy PvP urges.
    Or to play in the 10-49 brackets where the lack of progression one faces at 50 does not exist. There's no other game out there that really tempts me - nothing on the horizon either.

    -Has created a massive division in the community between PvPers and casuals/raiders. If your not P6+ you really don't belong in PvP. If you want to get into PvP you better drop everything your doing and grind like a mad man, eat the losses and suck up the domination, and force your way there. PvP in Rift requires as much dedication as raiding, if not more.
    I just do not understand how you have placed casuals and raiders together as you did there... raiders are some of the most annoying, uptight, egotistical, clique heavy, etc, etc, etc people I've ever had the displeasure of coming across. I've never seen the attitude they commonly display displayed by the PvP crowd. As such, obviously there is a division between the casual and hardcore player - regardless of whether one is talking about PvE or PvP.

    -Getting gear checked in PvP, in which player skill vs. player skill should be the main focus, is silly.
    If it were not gear checking, it would be team checking or build checking or some other form of checking. There are many facets involved in PvP in a MMO... it is not a two player game at the arcade.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiestyInsanity View Post
    I have to say I used to be one of the people who said "suck it up". Not anymore. A friend got me to reroll a warrior just to try melee fresh at 50, and got damn I must say it sucks.

    My cleric was easy I could sit back and just heal\dps, rogue same. Trying to play a melee class as a fresh 50 is horrid I'm not even hitting some of the people past double didgets with finishers.

    And to the people saying "suck it up still" yeah we get it we all went through it in some way. But no way in hell you went against these new r7/8's so don't come talk bullish cupcake cause its not the same.
    A lot of the people saying suck it up were "first wave" people. When they were doing the grind almost no one had valor gear, and those that did were on equal grounds to them. Eventually they hit p6 and were drastically stronger and rolled people saying "suck it up!". So while they did the grind, they did it at a different time and the dynamic was far better for them.

    At this point they're still either equal geared or better than everyone coming their way, so they can't quite understand why people are complaining. I encourage a bored rank 8 to repurchase all the rank 1-2 gear, replace their weapon with say a T1 or crafted weapon and see how it is to come into pvp now.

  12. #12
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  13. #13
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    This is an obvious problem, but the wide gap between prestige ranks 1 and 8 is large to the point where 50 PvP is virtually inaccessible to fresh 50s. >>>>>>>>>> WTF you hit the Que button to get in

    suck it up princess we all had the same problems as a fresh 50 and before u say there were only p6 we didnt have cheap *** epics that made us do good dmg we had greens and blues

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Malvolio's Avatar
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    Im willing to bet the majority of the opposition leveled their pvp toons before there were a great deal of RR6+. Even if that's not the case you obviously got carried through your grind.

    The OPs point is that gear should give you an advantage not total invulnerability. Short of being AFK a fresh 50 hell even 2 fresh 50s can barely dent an rr6+. If this cannot be rectified then split up RR0-RR4 and RR4-RR8.

    At that point the fight has nothing to do with skill you could spam a 1 button macro and stomp the 2 fresh 50s. A cleric can completely ignore the incomming damage as they have ludicrous mitigation towards it.

    Can you grind? Yes but enjoy hundreds of matches being completely useless and dying in seconds. Your a glass cannon without the cannon so your just a piece of glass.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    I agree with the OP. I have simply stopped playing the 50 PvP grinder. Below 50 I have a great time and feel like I'm useful. I have started just creating a new toon when I hit 50 so I can play some balanced PvP.

    When starting a new toon is preferable to advancing a toon that you sunk 50 levels into, there is a definite problem.

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    Last edited by Rift Goat; 08-20-2011 at 03:31 PM.

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