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Thread: DR is completely screwed UP in pvp.

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default DR is completely screwed UP in pvp.

    Let me explain. S3 / S4 gladiator in WoW here, anyway the idea for diminishing returns came from WoW arena when in season 1, it was common for CC classes to completely keep someone in the same CC for an entire match. The key word here is arena, 2v2 and 3v3 matches. And this is when most healers COULD NOT dispel in TBC/WOTLK. DR makes complete sense in an arena environment when only 2 out of 10 classes were able to dispel in TBC/WOTLK.

    The way you did DR in this game is completely ridiculous. First off, DR doesn't matter nearly as much in team based games when the opposing team has hordes of dispellers ready to remove CC. Further, snares and roots are the only way to keep melee pressure down to a minimum. The way your system is currently, melee is almost always immune. THIS IS ON TOP OF HEALERS AND MANY DPS CLASSES (dominitor spec mages anyone?) BEING ABLE TO DISPEL CC/SNARES ANYWAY. Ridiculous? YES.

    Lets make something clear. DR makes a lot of sense in arena. It has a purpose in 15v15 games still but the DR system has TOO MANY THINGS SHARED. I honestly believe this is why warriors are so dominant. EVERY class that has a defense against an idiot 2 macro spamming warrior running in, it will get immuned far before the warrior is able to be peeled. WoW has a good balance of DR's not being too insane, you can reliably peel melee off of yourself or your partner. ITS NEVER A PROBLEM.

    So lets recap. DR was created in WoW for *arena* when only 2 healing classes could dispel. DR has and always will be insignifigant in 15 on 15 battlegrounds or warfronts. DR in rift is absolutely ******ed because its too forgiving for melee who become immune and unpeelable in a matter of SECONDS. THIS IS ON TOP OF THE FACT THAT SNARES AND CC CAN BE DISPELLED BY PRACTICALLY EVERYONE.

    Simply put, having so many THINGS ON THE SAME DR IS RIDICULOUS. Melee are near UNPEELABLE in premades. When *everyone*, including dps classes, can dispel and remove CC / snares, yet your DR system makes someone immune in about 3 seconds? Give me a break man. You need to put a better thought DR system in that allows for peels and counters.
    Last edited by velias; 08-20-2011 at 08:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Agree completely.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by velias View Post
    Let me explain. S3 / S4 gladiator in WoW here, anyway the idea for diminishing returns came from WoW arena when in season 1, it was common for CC classes to completely keep someone in the same CC for an entire match. The key word here is arena, 2v2 and 3v3 matches. And this is when most healers COULD NOT dispel in TBC/WOTLK. DR makes complete sense in an arena environment when only 2 out of 10 classes were able to dispel in TBC/WOTLK.

    The way you did DR in this game is completely ridiculous. First off, DR doesn't matter nearly as much in team based games when the opposing team has hordes of dispellers ready to remove CC. Further, snares and roots are the only way to keep melee pressure down to a minimum. The way your system is currently, melee is almost always immune. THIS IS ON TOP OF HEALERS AND MANY DPS CLASSES (dominitor spec mages anyone?) BEING ABLE TO DISPEL CC/SNARES ANYWAY. Ridiculous? YES.

    Lets make something clear. DR makes a lot of sense in arena. It has a purpose in 15v15 games still but the DR system has TOO MANY THINGS SHARED. I honestly believe this is why warriors are so dominant. EVERY class that has a defense against an idiot 2 macro spamming warrior running in, it will get immuned far before the warrior is able to be peeled. WoW has a good balance of DR's not being too insane, you can reliably peel melee off of yourself or your partner. ITS NEVER A PROBLEM.

    So lets recap. DR was created in WoW for *arena* when only 2 healing classes could dispel. DR has and always will be insignifigant in 15 on 15 battlegrounds or warfronts. DR in rift is absolutely ******ed because its too forgiving for melee who become immune and unpeelable in a matter of SECONDS. THIS IS ON TOP OF THE FACT THAT SNARES AND CC CAN BE DISPELLED BY PRACTICALLY EVERYONE.

    Simply put, having so many THINGS ON THE SAME DR IS RIDICULOUS. Melee are near UNPEELABLE in premades. When *everyone*, including dps classes, can dispel and remove CC / snares, yet your DR system makes someone immune in about 3 seconds? Give me a break man. You need to put a better thought DR system in that allows for peels and counters.
    ive been saying this forever.. but all melee thinks its fine because they get squirreled sometimes... they don't realize how much it hurts the mages and clerics...

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    i do agree to a certain extent, but try being a melee with all these stuns, with no heals.

    And to be honest, clerics have approx 3 things to go immune to stuns/snares, one of which on a 45 sec (or 1 min, cant recall) cooldown. That being said, they ARE high in the PvP soul, however it still sucks :/

    The issue of diminishing returns does need to be addressed, but not a DR increase to certain classes, its just because theres no shared DR for warr/rogue stuns (i think thats what u were getting at, not sure).

    Also, if you think stuns are annoying, try blowing every cooldown on a healer to get them down to 40% for them to go back to full.

  5. #5
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velias View Post
    Let me explain. S3 / S4 gladiator in WoW here, anyway the idea for diminishing returns came from WoW arena when in season 1, it was common for CC classes to completely keep someone in the same CC for an entire match. The key word here is arena, 2v2 and 3v3 matches. And this is when most healers COULD NOT dispel in TBC/WOTLK. DR makes complete sense in an arena environment when only 2 out of 10 classes were able to dispel in TBC/WOTLK.
    I lol'd. DR for CC existed long before WoW existed.

    It is a trip too, because WoW launched with a DR system in place - though "movement" DR did not occur until patch 1.4 on May 5th.

    You're already providing big laughs, let's see what you've got next...

    The way you did DR in this game is completely ridiculous. First off, DR doesn't matter nearly as much in team based games when the opposing team has hordes of dispellers ready to remove CC. Further, snares and roots are the only way to keep melee pressure down to a minimum. The way your system is currently, melee is almost always immune. THIS IS ON TOP OF HEALERS AND MANY DPS CLASSES (dominitor spec mages anyone?) BEING ABLE TO DISPEL CC/SNARES ANYWAY. Ridiculous? YES.
    You realize that Melee have Snares/Roots as well, right? Well, then again - you probably do not...

    Lets make something clear. DR makes a lot of sense in arena. It has a purpose in 15v15 games still but the DR system has TOO MANY THINGS SHARED. I honestly believe this is why warriors are so dominant. EVERY class that has a defense against an idiot 2 macro spamming warrior running in, it will get immuned far before the warrior is able to be peeled. WoW has a good balance of DR's not being too insane, you can reliably peel melee off of yourself or your partner. ITS NEVER A PROBLEM.
    DR makes sense in PvP. That is why games before WoW had DR for CC. That is why WoW had DR before Arena...lol.

    So lets recap. DR was created in WoW for *arena* when only 2 healing classes could dispel. DR has and always will be insignifigant in 15 on 15 battlegrounds or warfronts. DR in rift is absolutely ******ed because its too forgiving for melee who become immune and unpeelable in a matter of SECONDS. THIS IS ON TOP OF THE FACT THAT SNARES AND CC CAN BE DISPELLED BY PRACTICALLY EVERYONE.
    The fact that you keep saying the same wrong thing over and over and over... does not make it correct.

    Simply put, having so many THINGS ON THE SAME DR IS RIDICULOUS. Melee are near UNPEELABLE in premades. When *everyone*, including dps classes, can dispel and remove CC / snares, yet your DR system makes someone immune in about 3 seconds? Give me a break man. You need to put a better thought DR system in that allows for peels and counters.
    I agree that two groups is not enough. I prefer the four group system:

    Control - Mez, Stun, Squirrel, etc.
    Ability - Disarm, Silence, etc.
    Location: Pull, Knockback, etc.
    Speed: Snares, Roots, etc.

    They are definitely a more logical grouping than the two groups we have...
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
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  6. #6
    Telaran
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    DR is fine, the problem is the way they scale items in this game, and the fact that the DR stat is linear and has no curve at all ( dimunish returns )

    DR is necessary cause without it you would just get blown up in 2sec everytime easily by a lucky single dps or 2 dps assisting.

    For snares I agree, shouldnt have an immune system to them it is stupid.

    Other problem is as the game progress, they keep addin new sets of pvp but the started stuff doesnt improve to bring up the rear. Meaning new 50s have a long GRIND of being useless ahead of them.


    Take a R1-2 set of pvp geared character and compare the stats to a R7-8 geared character.

    almost double the health
    more than double the dmg
    more than double the mitigation
    so if the low rank was to go against the high rank character, a 300% dmg buff to him wouldnt even be enough to make it fair. it is too much of a disparity.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    I lol'd.
    I agree that two groups is not enough. I prefer the four group system:

    Control - Mez, Stun, Squirrel, etc.
    Ability - Disarm, Silence, etc.
    Location: Pull, Knockback, etc.
    Speed: Snares, Roots, etc.

    They are definitely a more logical grouping than the two groups we have...
    yea and I lol'd to this the immunes are horrible in this game, pushing all classes to go for burst dps build instead of more fun and critic kite builds. I feel I have to use my spells incredibly fast so the warrior wont charge me in time because if he does <immune>. the only way to get rid of a melee class of you is transmogrify and if you are not domi sorry you wont be able to use that spell as it has a stupid long cast time which will be interrupted or pushbacked till you die.

  8. #8
    Champion
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    I call shenanigans on this one. Yesterday I had several games where I was back to back squirreled for well over 15 consecutive seconds. I use break free on the first one and they get again shortly after that and as soon as it breaks I'm turned into a little fury animal again. I don't know if it was 2 or 3 different mages doing it but there was no immunity involved on my part.

    I've also been chain feared into rooted and any other combination. If anything it all needs to be on the same god damn dr, making use of these types of skills a lot more tactical so 2 or 3 warriors and mages can't just run in there and fear bomb your team to death.
    Last edited by Reiz; 08-21-2011 at 01:26 PM.

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara
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    Every single class in this game has waaaayyy too much CC. That's the real issue. How did Trion fix this? With DRs. /facepalm. I, and probably most other people, would much rather have 1 knockback as my only form of CC and know that it would work every single time rather than 5 forms of CC that work 10% of the time.

  10. #10
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElusiveJones View Post
    Every single class in this game has waaaayyy too much CC. That's the real issue. How did Trion fix this? With DRs. /facepalm. I, and probably most other people, would much rather have 1 knockback as my only form of CC and know that it would work every single time rather than 5 forms of CC that work 10% of the time.
    Yeah, when Trion gave us the broken 1.2 (broken, because it has not actually been implemented as stated yet) - many folks that saw the patch notes were confused by where Trion came up with that. We had been saying there was too much CC - as in everybody and their neighbor's dog's best friend's cat's owner's bagger at the local grocery store had CC... there was "too much"...

    ...oh well, I still say they need to implement 1.2 at some point since it was in the notes; and then we can take it from there - hopefully looking at groups or something.
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
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  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by velias View Post
    Let me explain. S3 / S4 gladiator in WoW here, anyway the idea for diminishing returns came from WoW arena when in season 1, it was common for CC classes to completely keep someone in the same CC for an entire match. The key word here is arena, 2v2 and 3v3 matches. And this is when most healers COULD NOT dispel in TBC/WOTLK. DR makes complete sense in an arena environment when only 2 out of 10 classes were able to dispel in TBC/WOTLK.

    The way you did DR in this game is completely ridiculous. First off, DR doesn't matter nearly as much in team based games when the opposing team has hordes of dispellers ready to remove CC. Further, snares and roots are the only way to keep melee pressure down to a minimum. The way your system is currently, melee is almost always immune. THIS IS ON TOP OF HEALERS AND MANY DPS CLASSES (dominitor spec mages anyone?) BEING ABLE TO DISPEL CC/SNARES ANYWAY. Ridiculous? YES.

    Lets make something clear. DR makes a lot of sense in arena. It has a purpose in 15v15 games still but the DR system has TOO MANY THINGS SHARED. I honestly believe this is why warriors are so dominant. EVERY class that has a defense against an idiot 2 macro spamming warrior running in, it will get immuned far before the warrior is able to be peeled. WoW has a good balance of DR's not being too insane, you can reliably peel melee off of yourself or your partner. ITS NEVER A PROBLEM.

    So lets recap. DR was created in WoW for *arena* when only 2 healing classes could dispel. DR has and always will be insignifigant in 15 on 15 battlegrounds or warfronts. DR in rift is absolutely ******ed because its too forgiving for melee who become immune and unpeelable in a matter of SECONDS. THIS IS ON TOP OF THE FACT THAT SNARES AND CC CAN BE DISPELLED BY PRACTICALLY EVERYONE.

    Simply put, having so many THINGS ON THE SAME DR IS RIDICULOUS. Melee are near UNPEELABLE in premades. When *everyone*, including dps classes, can dispel and remove CC / snares, yet your DR system makes someone immune in about 3 seconds? Give me a break man. You need to put a better thought DR system in that allows for peels and counters.
    Solution:

    Remove DR
    Increase CD

    Takes a bit of tweaking, but I think Trion should do it. I have been thinking about along these line for a while.


    Regards

    Acererak

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by killhimnotme View Post
    ive been saying this forever.. but all melee thinks its fine because they get squirreled sometimes... they don't realize how much it hurts the mages and clerics...
    hurts ranged rogues and ofc bards aswell, its impossible to peel or kite any warrior especally riftblades..
    and the "Immune" is popping up 9 or 10 times you use a snare.. poor game mechanics tbh
    -Cellar rank 8 rogue Icewatch-

  13. #13
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellarone View Post
    hurts ranged rogues and ofc bards aswell, its impossible to peel or kite any warrior especally riftblades..
    and the "Immune" is popping up 9 or 10 times you use a snare.. poor game mechanics tbh
    Yep, being able to drop out a snare 9 to 10 times fast enough to where you notice the Immune is definitely poor game mechanics...
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
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  14. #14
    Rift Chaser
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    Healing nerf + DR nerf = quake.

    I do love playing my teleporting, stunning, snaring, silencing, wtfbbqdps rb/vk though, gotta admit it is fun lolerstomping people. Not so much when I'm on the other end of it though.

    It's always tough to balance CC in multiplayer games, because when it starts coming from multiple sources, it can be impossible to deal with, and can turn into an I win button. They just went a little too far the wrong way here.

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