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Thread: My 6 hour warfront experiment

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    Rift Chaser jeffreyac's Avatar
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    Default My 6 hour warfront experiment

    Let me save you time. TL;DR, just move on. However, if you're curious, grab yourself a drink and c'mon in.



    The Great Experiment

    Today I had the afternoon off, dinner in the crock pot that wasn’t going to be ready for 8 hours, and questions on my mind.

    My questions:

    1. How bad is the grind to R8, timewise?
    2. My perception is guardians get rolled – is this true?
    3. How unbalanced are the warfronts with current gear?

    With this in mind, I decided to track warfront results for me for the whole afternoon, and keep tabs of the results. The results are listed below, and also broken down by wf.

    INITIAL CONDITIONS/ASSUMPTIONS:


    For the experiment, the character used is a R5 rogue, specced heavily into bard. He’s got full R4 gear plus the gloves and boots from the R5 set. This ought to give a picture for an ‘average gear’; he should be more geared than some, but less geared than some. (it’s the best I could do.)

    I queued WF’s constantly over the course of the test. Thanks to the shortage of guardians, I never had to wait more than a minute between matches. So this test represents essentially continuous play over the time period. I queued for all warfronts, and took the first one that popped every time. (Note that Whitefall was under bonus, and I played 10 games there – I do not have the data breakdown to accurately determine the influence of the bonus prestige/favor. However, only 30% of the Whitefall games were wins, so this may have had minimal impact)

    Prestige and favor gains include one daily WF quest accomplished.

    Data examined for prestige grind was from R5 to R6, ‘cause that’s what I had on that character.

    Other than score, total kills per team are also listed as another measure of how the game went. Finer details (damage/healing done per team, kb’s, etc) were deemed beyond the scope of the study.

    I also looked at ‘crushing wins’, those times when one team just steamrollers another. The definition of a ‘crushing win’ varied from WF to WF, and had a degree of subjectivity included, but examples are given in each wf.

    ‘winning’ and ‘losing’ are from Guardian standpoint (i.e. ‘winning’ matches means Guardians won).

    INITIAL RESULTS:


    Time played: 6 hours, 12 minutes, 27 seconds from first queue to end of last WF.

    Overall favor gained: 34,136 (equaling 5499 per hour)

    Overall prestige gained: 41819 (equaling 6737 per hour)

    Using this average prestige, time required from R5 to R6: 53.44 hours continuous play. (on bonus weekend),

    Overall W/L: 16-18

    Breakdown by warfronts:

    Whitefall Steppes: 10 games played

    Overall W/L: 3-7

    Average winning score: 3-0 (34.2 guardian kills, 11 Defiant kills)
    Average losing score: 0-3 (20 guardian kills, 44 defiant kills)

    Most lopsided win: 3-0 (45-5 guardian kill advantage)
    Most lopsided loss: 0-3 (42-7 defiant kill advantage)

    Closest match: 0-3 Defiant win, (kill ratios 28 guardian,24 defiant)

    Crushing wins: 7 out of 10 games (3 won by guardians, 4 by defiant)

    Crushing wins in this match were a 3-0 victory with a overwhelming kill ratio. (3:1 or more, generally).

    Overall impressions: more than any other warfront, this one always seemed to be one team rolling the other, as can be seemed by the average score. (The losing team did not score ever today in these matches). Though the worst win and loss are posted, many of the kill counts for the other games were similarly lopsided a(with one exception, there was one outlier where the guardians managed to outkill the defiants 28-24, but still managed to lose the match 3-0.)

    Interesting to note the only guardian wins were crushing wins, where we rolled. It was either roll or be rolled here today!

    Bonus weekend was in effect, and all but one game was played with bonus rules in effect. The one game not played under escalation rules was a defiant win, 0-3, with a 102-60 defiant kill advantage.

    Also interesting to note was there were far more total kills in the normal whitefall steppes. I would have expected with the big battles in the mid there to be more kills in escalation, but the data says otherwise. However, I only had the one normal game to draw data from.

    Black Garden: 12 games played

    Overall W/L: 7-5

    Average winning score: 500-109 (34 guardian kills, 7 defiant kills)
    Average losing score: 160-500 (21 guardian kills, 35 defiant kills)

    Most lopsided win: 500-8 (15 guardian kills, 1 defiant kill)
    Most lopsided loss: 8-500 (16 defiant kills, 1 guardian kill)

    Closest match: 394-500 Defiant win (61 Def kills, 38 Guard kills)

    Crushing wins: 8 out of 12 (5 guardian wins, 3 def wins)

    Crushing wins in this WF were generally where a team was rolled so bad they stayed at spawn.

    Overall impressions: I guess I should have expected it, but kill counts were much higher in matches that were at least not out of reach – and it makes sense; if one team feels they can’t win, after a time they just stop dropping down and let the match end. (Hence the low kill counts in the most lopsided matches).While these matches felt closer than Whitefall overall, looking at the kill rations over the 12 games showed that in all but 1 game the winner had at least a 2:1 kill ratio over the loser, and in about half the games that ratio exceeded 3 to 1. (there was a 40-1 kill ratio as well – a crushing win where the other team didn’t give up but kept coming down to the field… but they did manage to earn 58 points, so it wasn’t in fact the most lopsided game…) Still, of the games played were landslide victories.

    Codex: 7 Games played.

    Overall W/L: 4-3

    Average winning score: 1000-583 (46 Guardian kills, 34 defiant kills)
    Average losing score: 335-1000 (28 Guardian kills, 56 defiant kills)

    Most lopsided win: 1000-238 (46 Guardian kills, 22 Defiant kills)
    Most lopsided loss: 44-1000 (8 Guardian kills, 56 Defiant kills) (OUCH!!)

    Closest game: 1000-904 Guardian win (60 Guardian kills, 57 Defiant kills)

    Crushing wins: 2 out of 7 (one each for Guardian and Defiant, the games listed in the lopsided section. I should count that one the Defiants one twice – we got destroyed!)

    Crushing wins in this WF were generally where one team could not compete, got spawn-camped, or generally were routed from the start of the game.

    Overall impressions: I expected Codex to be a better matchup, and the data seems to support this. Not counting the lopsided victories, matches tended to go about 1000-500 which, while still lopsided, at east showed some participation by the other team.

    Port Scion: 5 games played.

    Overall W/L: 2-3

    Average winning score: 1000-300 (150.5 guardian kills, 42 Defiant kills)
    Average losing score: 724-1000 (153 Guardian kills, 186 Defiant kills)

    Most lopsided win: 1000-173 (Guardian boss kill) (151 guardian kills, 14 defiant kills)
    Most lopsided loss: 586-1000 (171 Guardian kills, 218 Defiant kills)

    Closest match: 879-1000 Defiant win (164 Guardian kills, 137 Defiant kills)

    Crushing wins: 1 (The Guardian boss kill)

    Crushing wins in this WF were going to be boss kills, or badly outscored.

    Overall impressions: Other than the one boss kill, there really weren’t any true runaways – if you take the boss kill out, the average score difference goes to the 1000-650, and that includes a 1000-427 drubbing that was pretty bad, but I didn’t feel right calling it a true crushing. I was a little surprised by this – I guess often in games it feels like a runaway match, when in fact the score is still within about 200 points. Also interesting to note that kills don’t always guarantee wins – the close match the Defiants won despite Guardians having a slight kill advantage.


    End Results:

    1. How bad is the R6 grind going to be?

    To be honest, I was surprised here. True, 54 hours isn’t exactly fast – but realistically, at my casual playing speed of about 15 hours a week, I’m looking at a month or so. Normally I’d be satisfied with that – but I’m a little concerned that we’ll be looking at stuff better than R8 by then, so in fact, though I’m running as fast as I can on the hamster wheel, I’m actually faling further behind the leaders, not catching up. I’m also a little worried knowing that it’s going to be even longer for R7 and R8 after that… so, though initial results were promising, I’m not sure I’m reassured at this point.

    2. Guardians get rolled – true or false?

    This was interesting – because the one thing that isn’t listed in the results over the 6 hours is the order of wins/losses. The day started with about 2 straight hours of Defiant wins – at one point I was 3-10 overall. Then I had a huge string of victories, bringing Guardians into the lead overall, then another string of Defiant wins to go pretty much even for the day. I found this interesting because the warfront didn’t seem to matter – if one team was rolling, they were pretty much rolling all warfronts, and that was it. So, though overall was almost even today, it was certainly streaky – and easy to see if someone just played an hour or two in the wrong part of one of those streaks, how they could feel like it was a 100% win or lose for their team all the time.

    3. How bad is gear imbalance?

    OK, this one is going to require some interpretation of the data; so I completely understand if there are those that disagree with me. But I found it interesting that the warfronts that tend to force folks together (Black Garden because it’s essentially a mosh pit in the middle, and Whitefall Steppes because everyone fights for the ice lake) there was also the most lopsided victories. That seems to say to me that where there is a gear imbalance (i.e. one team is easily killing the other team) it’s going to show up worse in those two warfronts. The other warfronts (codex and port) are much more spread out, and the presence of a couple of R8’s in the raid is less dominating, as they simply can’t be everywhere at one. Now, my initial goal of trying to detect a gear imbalance – well, I found there really wasn’t a good way to measure this overall. But I believe I did learn that (unless the whole team is R8’s) the larger and more diverse a warfront map is, the less it would be susceptible to gear imbalance issues.


    Well, time to get dinner out of the crock pot. Hope you enjoyed the read; good hunting!
    Last edited by jeffreyac; 08-19-2011 at 05:34 PM.

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    Rift Chaser jeffreyac's Avatar
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    One more comment: I found today, looking over the 34 games played, that in all of them there really were only 3 really close games (a 394-500 garden, a 1000-904 codex, and a 1000-879 port match). This kinda saddens me - because those close games are the ones that really are the most fun, and the ones I enjoy, even if we lose. Today, that happened less than 10% of the time - but I guess that's hard to expect, as it requires two very equally balanced teams, and that's hard to control.

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    Rift Master Shannae's Avatar
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    Good read, and while not super scientific, it echoes my own experiences as a Guardian. Especially the notion thhat which side is winning seems to be a time of day issue more than a map specific issue.
    "You're right. Technically he has the right to cry about it. And I have the right to mock him for crying about something stupid." ~Bridgeburner
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    Ascendant Soul sky's Avatar
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    What shard are you playing on, out of curiosity?
    Valery@Zaviel - Mage | Valzz - Cleric | Soulsky - Rogue | Introvert - Warrior
    Everything you need to know for Mage: www.valvalval.net

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    Rift Chaser jeffreyac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soul sky View Post
    What shard are you playing on, out of curiosity?
    Holy cow, my apologies, I meant to mention that in the initial conditions part!

    I'm on Asphodel.

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    Rift Disciple
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    I'll also add that was a good read. Thanks for doing that. I'm going to start writing mine down for the heck of it.

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    Soulwalker
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    My god man...this is amazing. Overall good read. Everything you wrote is dead on as far as my experience with Warfronts and I'm a Defiant.

    I hope Trion looks at this data and especially look at your end results particularly the third question. BG and WF is all about gear. Hence, this is why I stopped playing and also the grind to R5 & 6.
    Last edited by tunini; 08-19-2011 at 08:02 PM.

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    Ascendant Vyxagallanxchi's Avatar
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    Very good read. I always felt that time of day was a factor and this lends some observational evidence to support that. The time to hit rank 6 from rank 5 convinced me to make sure I have all my college homework done before the half birthday event so I can shave some time off of that.

    Seriously, thank you for taking the time to do this. Some very good info here
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Think of a 30 meter circle around all ranged dps rogues and mages. Ranged dps can stand in the back line and focus fire targets without worrying about mobility and most forms of cc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    Sounds like an excellent plan for your healers to follow as well, as they have an even longer range on their heals.

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    Greetings from Riptalon, thanks for sharing your info OP. I happen to log my WF data daily; I find it's helpful to organize/guide raids more effectively... and figured I'd share mine since a few folks thought the OP data was intriguing.

    My data was from yesterday and earlier this morning. I played Black Garden and Whitefall Steppes: Escalation from 19AUG/9AM until 20AUG/5AM (yea don't hate). There are some time gaps, and that's due to playing other content in between Warfronts, and going out to eat lunch/dinner away from home. I won 20 out of 27 warfronts (from start to finish) and earned approximately 100,000 prestige. I'm too lazy to count the favor at this time.

    NOTE: DEFIANT NUMBERS ARE LISTED FIRST FOR BOTH POINTS AND KILLS, WHETHER WIN OR LOSE.

    Black Garden:
    9:24AM: Points 500 - 16. Kills 24 - 7.
    Even gear. Game changer was 1 defiant healing for 3x more than top guardian healer.

    12:40PM: Points 158 - 500. Kills 16 - 32.
    Even gear. Healing favored defiants but DPS on defiant side was not marking targets or assisting.

    12:58PM: Points 500 - 140. Kills 33- 9.
    Guardians had overall higher ranked players, but defiants had one R8 warrior who rolled their entire team with 2 pocket healers.

    3:13AM: Points 193 - 500. Kills 14 - 34.
    Even gear, but defiants had 1 healer compared to guardians 5 healers. Defiant dps did not mark or assist.

    3:47AM: Points 500 - 342. Kills 22 - 29.
    Gear favored defiants. Defiants had only 1 cleric compared to 3 guardian clerics, but the defiant cleric healed for double the opposition (used speed buff and ~1600 spell power). Defiant dps supported cleric superbly.


    Whitefall Steppes: Escalation
    2:12PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 22 - 16.
    Gear favored defiants, but heals and dps were even. Defiant rogues outsmarted the other team.

    3:35PM: Points 3/3 - 1/3. Kills 43 - 41.
    Gear, heals, and dps were very even. Game went back and forth in terms of points and kills. Both teams were fully alive at the end and victory could have gone either way. Strategy and timing of the stones in middle was the only deciding factor in this victory.

    4:05PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 41 - 2.
    Even gear and heals, however guardians DPS was severely lacking (they were scattered on different targets). Defiants placed top 6 in DPS. Defiants pushed to guardians base and farmed.

    4:15PM: Points 3/3 - 1/3. Kills 42 - 16.
    Gear heavily favored defiants and DPS was completely lopsided. Top 3 DPS on defiant side were 3x higher than the guardians. Defiant healers performed poorly.

    5:20PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 44 - 11.
    Gear was even, however 1 defiant healer did double the top guardians. Defiants pushed to guardians base and farmed.

    6:04PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 41 - 7.
    Gear was even, but defiants had the "perfect raid setup" IMO. DPS had outstanding buffs from support classes and a great mixture of mages, dps cleric, rogues, and warriors. Defiants pushed to guardians base and farmed.

    6:25PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 25 - 6.
    Gear was even, but defiants had 2 clerics and 1 mage healer compared to only 1 healer total (cleric) on guardian side.

    6:40PM: Points 0/3 - 3/3. Kills unknown...screenshot was fail.
    Gear was even, but defiant healers performed poorly and dps did not mark targets or assist.

    6:55PM: Points 3/3 - 1/3. Kills 38 - 6.
    Gear was even, however defiants had 3+ dps players targetting same person and facerolled. Heals also favored defiants.

    7:19PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 37 - 6.
    I don't remember and cannot find my log of what caused this victory, screenshot looks balanced on the dps and heals.

    7:32PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 38 - 2.
    Gear highly favored defiants and DPS was insanely high and working together on defiant side. Heals were barely needed because the guardians died so quick. This was the highest dps output I've ever seen in a WF... defiants had numerous R6+ dps classes working together. Pushed to guardian base and farmed; most guardians stayed in their spawn point.

    7:46PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 37 - 0.
    Even gear, overall raid on both sides were highly ranked. Defiant DPS worked very well together again (mostly the same players from previous WF) and destroyed targets within .5 second each by targeting same player. After the initial guardian wipe...2 clerics (1 warden, 1 inquis), 1 bard, and 1 warrior pushed to guardian base and farmed while the remainder of team protected carriers from rogues and guardians who left base a different way. Overall, it was great DPS teamwork and a perfect healer combo on defiant side who all performed outstanding.

    8:25PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 41 - 4.
    Even gear. Defiants once again had a great raid setup with 2 cleric combos that support each other and 1 mage support healer... plus the DPS guys from earlier. Defiant team pushed to guardian base and farmed while 2 rogues ran stones.

    8:44PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 64 - 11.
    Gear heavily favored defiants. Also, defiants had only 1 cleric, but cleric did 3x more heals than top guardian and DPS worked very well together again. Pushed to guardian base and farmed while a rogue ran stones.

    8:59PM: Points 3/3 - 1/3. Kills 50 - 12.
    Gear was even. Another perfect cleric/mage healer combo on defiant side who all performed very well contributed to this victory. DPS was not marking/assisting on defiant side, but defiant won nonetheless. Pushed to guardian base and farmed.

    9:30PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 57 - 4.
    Guardians had the gear advantage, but defiant clerics both had amazing buffs which resulted in a lopsided healer performance favoring the defiant. Pushed to guardian base and farmed.

    9:40PM: Points 3/3 - 0/3. Kills 32 - 3.
    Gear was even, however defiants had 3 healers compared to guardians 1. Defiants wiped their raid very quickly and pushed to base while rogues ran stones with speed buffs.

    10:45PM: Points 1/3 - 3/3. Kills 16 - 44.
    Gear was fairly even and both raids had 1 premade group. Defiants actually had the lead at the beginning, however, guardians regrouped quickly and wiped defiants who were spread out between middle and base. 1 rogue also stole a stone from defiant base. Defiants had 1 dps who did double the top 2 guardians dps, which contributed to initial guardian wipe.

    11:38PM: Points 0/3 - 3/3. Kills 24 - 63.
    Both teams were highly ranked and consisted of half premades. Heals actually favored the defiant side by far due to "perfect cleric and support combo", but DPS on guardian side was far more organized and won the battle.

    12:14AM: Points 0/3 - 3/3. Kills 29 - 35.
    Gear was even and both raids were mostly premade, however guardians outplayed the defiant healers by using an AoE silence in coordination with 2 players mana draining at the same time... repeatedly, which contributed to victory. This fight had the most skilled players I've seen in one WF. Fight remained in the middle with neither side fully wiping.

    1:01AM: Points 3/3 - 1/3. Kills 15 - 20.
    Gear, heals, dps, and group makeups were very even. This was the most competitive battle of the night and both sides congratulated each other on a great game at the end. Both teams initially had 1 capture, then the defiants were able to score 2 stones together at the end mainly due to instant cast heals and a defiant cabalist chain casting snare on entire guardian raid.

    2:09AM: Points 0/3 - 3/3. Kills 6 - 38.
    Gear was even, but defiants had only 1 healer compared to guardians 4. Defiants were farmed at base.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    FYI - that was the most defiant wins I've ever seen in one day. Normally there are more premades on guardian side owning us.

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    Just for the heck of it. Since I saw this post last night, I wrote down the wins/losses and my favor. I didn't spend the time making exact notes on every fight but you can see the favor and get an idea anyhow.

    My take on it? I certainly felt like I was losing a lot more than I was. 37 matches. 18 Guardian wins 19 Defiant wins. I would say there was definitely confirmation bias going on. Ignore the wins, think of the losses and think your side is losing more when it isn't.


    Guardian Win 3-0 1952
    Guardian Win 3-0 1952
    Guardian win 3-0 2200
    Defiant Win 3-0 780
    Defiant Win 3-0 828
    Defiant win 3-0 768
    Defiant win 3-0 768
    Defiant Win 3-0 870
    Guardian Win 3-1 2016
    Guardian Win 3-2 2874
    Defiant Win 3-1 1412
    Defiant Win 3-0 800
    Defiant Win 3-0 600
    Defiant Win 3-0 780
    Guardian win 3-0
    Defiant win 3-0 1428
    Guardian win 3-0 1596
    Defiant Win 3-0 956
    Guardian win 3-0 1840
    Defiant win 3-1
    Guardian Win 3-0
    Guardian Win 3-0 1898
    Defiant win 3-0 1198
    Defiant win 3-2 1246
    Defiant win 3-2 1250
    Guardian win 3-0 1958
    Guardian win 3-0 1946
    Guardian win 3-0 1374
    Defiant win 3-2 1344
    Guardian win 3-0 1278
    Guardian win 3-0 1336
    Guardian win 3-1 2300
    Guardian win 3-0 2152
    Defiant win 3-0 690
    Defiant Win 3-0 660
    Guardian win 3-0 1448
    Defiant win 3-0 1000

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser jeffreyac's Avatar
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    I notice an awful lot of 3-0 wins in there, as well. Did it look like to you it was one side consistently rolling the other, or was it closer than the score appeared?

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    Ascendant sanosuke's Avatar
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    more evidence they need to break up the ranks 1-4 and 5-8 and increase rewards to make up for longer que times.. would allow more close matches and just overall more enjoyable experience for everyone... i think if they wanted to they could even allow 1-4 to enter into 5-8 if they really wanted but not the other way around.. think PVP in the game would be so much better this way...
    Last edited by sanosuke; 08-20-2011 at 12:55 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Gyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanosuke View Post
    more evidence they need to break up the ranks 1-4 and 5-8 and increase rewards to make up for longer que times.. would allow more close matches and just overall more enjoyable experience for everyone... i think if they wanted to they could even allow 1-4 to enter into 5-8 if they really wanted but not the other way around.. think PVP in the game would be so much better this way...
    I don't understand how you reached this conclusion at all. You seem to have read a mountain of data that says things are far more balanced than people want to remember them as, and taken it to mean whatever you want.

    This data also mirrors my own experiences, in BG and WF (Escalation) either you steam roll them, or they steam roll you, and it seems to be either great healers, or 1 badass R8 warrior with a pocket or 2 that makes the big difference. Codex and Scion tend to be pretty close, or at the very least not lopsided nearly as often. Overall it seems like people have a good time when they destroy the other team, but the experience of being on the receiving end of it leaves a more lasting impression.

    IMO this is largely due to the Escalation map, as i have not had the same extremely lopsided frequency in the normal Whitefall map. I think lower ranking people are going into this Warfront and getting smoked over and over again, then winning a few, but not feeling like they contributed to that win enough for it to make a lasting impression, and thus coming out of a day of PvPing feeling like all they did was get owned all day. I think that PvP is more balanced than people "feel" like it is.
    Hastati (50 warrior), Tsar (50 cleric), Tsaritsa (50 Mage)
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    Ascendant sanosuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyle View Post
    I don't understand how you reached this conclusion at all. You seem to have read a mountain of data that says things are far more balanced than people want to remember them as, and taken it to mean whatever you want.

    This data also mirrors my own experiences, in BG and WF (Escalation) either you steam roll them, or they steam roll you, and it seems to be either great healers, or 1 badass R8 warrior with a pocket or 2 that makes the big difference. Codex and Scion tend to be pretty close, or at the very least not lopsided nearly as often. Overall it seems like people have a good time when they destroy the other team, but the experience of being on the receiving end of it leaves a more lasting impression.

    IMO this is largely due to the Escalation map, as i have not had the same extremely lopsided frequency in the normal Whitefall map. I think lower ranking people are going into this Warfront and getting smoked over and over again, then winning a few, but not feeling like they contributed to that win enough for it to make a lasting impression, and thus coming out of a day of PvPing feeling like all they did was get owned all day. I think that PvP is more balanced than people "feel" like it is.
    not in my experience over the last 3 months or so. Only map that generally isn't a gank fest is codex and sometimes scion.. After 50 how many CLOSE matches can you really say you had compared to pre 50 pvp. Pre 50 we had 500 to 4xx matches all the time and usually very close whitefall battles. Post 50 its pretty rare to get these and its getting even more rare now with more and more rank 7 and 8's. By dividing the ranks you would get back to more of what you get pre 50 which is a more level playing field. As rank 4 you still will be able to roll a rank one but nothing like a rank 8 will do to a rank 1.. Just think pvp in this game would be so much more fun with a split in ranks instead of allowing rank 8 to warfront with rank 1's.. If rank 8 wants to destroy rank 1 you got open world stuff:P

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