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Thread: Oh no another PvP thread by Quasari: Trion, you need to put more care into it.

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    Rift Chaser Quasari Nova's Avatar
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    Unhappy Oh no another PvP thread by Quasari: Trion, you need to put more care into it.

    Trion, I've had a lot to say about PvP, some good, some bad. I see the potential in your game for something great and see that you are making great strides to make the game enjoyable to a wide range of play styles. However there are a great number of things you need to fix in order for the game to last. This actually applies across the board to all elements of the game...you need to figure out what niche you are going to fill.

    I'm interested in PvP, so that's what I'm going to call for fixes in. There's a great number of things being called for fixing: Competitive PvP, Premades vs Pugs, Gear disparity, and your handling of balance. All of them are very important, all of them need to be addressed.

    The first two, Competitive PvP and Premades vs Pugs, I've already discussed in threads. The original threads are in my signature. Here's the short version. I believe we should have some sort of Rated PvP involving warfronts. Participation in these rated warfronts would only be available during small windows of time spread across the week to accommodate the majority of the population(as in you could have 3 windows, one in the morning on Monday, midday on Wednesday, and late Saturday and accommodate a wide range of players). The rated warfront would be available for inter-faction fights and if a new one was made for it, it would only be queue-able by a group. The rewards would be purely cosmetic, which btw Trion you need to really get to work making new models and skins for everything...The first link in my sig is all about rated PvP and goes more indepth into this.

    Premades vs Pugs would be fixed by having competitive PvP, however, an interim fix if competitive pvp never comes or will take a while, is possible. By allowing a group to flag themselves ok fight against solo groups, you would have more people queuing as a group rather than sync queuing. There would have to be a penalty for favor/prestige based on the size of the group, but if a group flags and you can't find another group for them to fight you may put them in the solo queue for faster queues. More people group queuing means less pugs fighting groups, but even if they do they wont feel like they were solely there to be farmed as the group will be making less currency. If you want to know more about this, the second link in my sig is about this interim fix.

    Gear disparity is a big issue. Rank 1's have no chance vs a Rank 8 and many people are mad about it. The main issue I see with it is that PvP gear has been lazily itemized. I know you guys aren't lazy, but it's pretty clear that ya'll took the PvE gear added some endurance, took off a little dps, and then threw on valor. It's like you barely have any weight to valor and it shows. Let's take a look at an example. I've screenshotted/cropped from zam the four pvp warrior chests and their dps warrior pve equivalent. Here they are:

    Oh no another PvP thread by Quasari: Trion, you need to put more care into it.-p1-2.jpg
    Oh no another PvP thread by Quasari: Trion, you need to put more care into it.-p3-4.jpg

    Let's see here... P2 has 1 less str, 1 ap less, loses 15 crit, gains 2 endurance, and gains 53 valor. The 15 crit loss is a bit, but the gained survivability far outweighs it. The P8 has 4 less str, 1 less dex, 43 less crit, but gains 13 endurance, 9 AP, and 106 Valor. Again you've basically just stripped crit from it and improved it a bit more. This becomes far more obvious when you put in the lazy synergy crystal which makes a bunch of PvErs drop some of their pieces for minmax glory.

    PvP gear shouldn't be great all around. It should be focused on survival with damaging stats coming in second. This will give players the ability to mix in PvE gear should one feel they have enough mitigation. I'd say drop your dps stats on the PvP gear down a tier(as in P1/2 having the amount a blue would have) and increasing endurance to fit. The dps needs to increase, due to the increased survival rate, but not at the level it is now. This will give healers a new lease on life, give everyone a bit more enjoyable time, and make group tactics even more important(disable healer, pull people, focus, LoS, etc).

    With or without the gear changes, there needs to be some sorting based on rank. Gear disparity will still be there, less prominent with survivability being the focus, but still there nonetheless. I feel the rank system needs changed first. You've spread your gear in 2 rank increments to make the climb seem not so high, but I feel this is just wrong. In reality there are just 4 ranks, so why not just make it four ranks. Make it where it still takes the same amount of prestige to hit rank 4 as it does 8, but make it where each rank gets the full set of gear. It's kind of dumb having to wait till the next rank to finish your set>.<

    With that said you need to weight your warfront queues with what rank each player is. Rank 4's should be grouped for 4s first, then 3's, then so on. Hold them in queue for up to five minutes(seems to be the magic number) before you allow a higher rank to play with lower ranks. The whole queue system needs to be sorting players as it can and give matches based on that anyway. Currently it just seems to be whos next in line.

    Finally, you need to fix your attitude towards PvP balance. Nerfing everything does not work. It just makes the game get more and more stupid. If the issue is gamebreaking, nerf it. If not, buff around it. In fact, this would be the perfect use for your lazy pvp synergy crystals. The synergy crystal bonus's shouldn't be raw ap/sp, but in fact be utility based. You could make some generic ones that say increase valor or runs peed or whatever, but you can also make some soul based ones. Say you don't get enough Beastmasters in PvP and the soul is considered worthless for it, you could give it's synergy crystal a that gives , say..., Feral Sweep an additional knock back. So now the Beastmaster has an aoe knockback and you start seeing more in the warfronts. It's not a suggestion, just an example of what you can do. Simply put, there shouldn't be any ap/sp on the synergy crystal, it should all be utility and there should be a lot of choices to pick from.

    I hope you guy's didn't tl;dr me, but I feel strongly about this issue and would like to bring it up to Trion. I feel suggestions work better than crying about it, so here I am. I hope that other's will join me in this discussion. If you have any idea's of your own, want to nickpick mine, or simply have something to add, please post. Don't let the thread die if you want Trion to do anything about this.

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    TL;DR

    If you are truly that passionate about... whatever your mini-novel is about up there, consider direct email to the devs. You're just asking to be flamed and trolled here.

  3. #3
    Rift Chaser Quasari Nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosInc View Post
    TL;DR

    If you are truly that passionate about... whatever your mini-novel is about up there, consider direct email to the devs. You're just asking to be flamed and trolled here.
    Flames and trolls are fine. I grew up a forum troll, still do a bit of it now and then. Honestly, I don't expect them to do anything about it and email is worse. The small chance I got in them fixing it is to initiate discussion on the subject. Problem is it has to be structured, which is what that essay up there is about. You can't just say gear is OP or blah blah is OP and expect a good fix. People need to throw out ideas and discuss them and show interest in it before trion will care.

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    I am so glad guys like you work at KMart or wherever and don't actually have a say in how this game is developed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quasari Nova View Post
    The first two, Competitive PvP and Premades vs Pugs, I've already discussed in threads. The original threads are in my signature. Here's the short version. I believe we should have some sort of Rated PvP involving warfronts. Participation in these rated warfronts would only be available during small windows of time spread across the week to accommodate the majority of the population(as in you could have 3 windows, one in the morning on Monday, midday on Wednesday, and late Saturday and accommodate a wide range of players). The rated warfront would be available for inter-faction fights and if a new one was made for it, it would only be queue-able by a group. The rewards would be purely cosmetic, which btw Trion you need to really get to work making new models and skins for everything...The first link in my sig is all about rated PvP and goes more indepth into this.
    The trouble with having things available at only certain times to accommodate the "majority" of the population is that you can't accommodate them all. You make it available all the time or, as is the case with escalation weekends, for a large enough window of time that everyone has a reasonable opportunity to take part. If you make it available in the morning on Monday, I can't take part. Midday Wednesday, I can't take part. Late Saturday would be my only truly viable window and if I can't make it, that week is a write off. Personally, I could live with that but as with saw with the River of Souls event, people will scream up a storm if the scheduling of limited time events prevents players from taking part.

    Premades vs Pugs would be fixed by having competitive PvP, however, an interim fix if competitive pvp never comes or will take a while, is possible. By allowing a group to flag themselves ok fight against solo groups, you would have more people queuing as a group rather than sync queuing. There would have to be a penalty for favor/prestige based on the size of the group, but if a group flags and you can't find another group for them to fight you may put them in the solo queue for faster queues. More people group queuing means less pugs fighting groups, but even if they do they wont feel like they were solely there to be farmed as the group will be making less currency. If you want to know more about this, the second link in my sig is about this interim fix.
    Stop and think about what you're saying. I agree that a more competitive venue of PvP would help alleviate the premade vs. PUG issue (specifically, PvP where winning is required to obtain the rewards, not simply showing up to enough matches.) As for allowing a group to flag themselves to fight against 'solo groups'...think about that.

    Who in their right mind is going to volunteer to take a penalty to favor/prestige gain in order to get a faster queue into a warfront as a group when they could just sync queue and be done with it with no penalty? Again...penalizing group play in an MMO. It would never work. If anyone used the feature at all it would be a very small group of players. It wouldn't stop sync queuing...it would only serve to encourage it even more.

    Gear disparity is a big issue. Rank 1's have no chance vs a Rank 8 and many people are mad about it. The main issue I see with it is that PvP gear has been lazily itemized. I know you guys aren't lazy, but it's pretty clear that ya'll took the PvE gear added some endurance, took off a little dps, and then threw on valor. It's like you barely have any weight to valor and it shows. Let's take a look at an example. I've screenshotted/cropped from zam the four pvp warrior chests and their dps warrior pve equivalent. Here they are:
    It would appear that they're itemizing for PvE first and then adjusting for PvP gear. The issue with appending too much stat weight to valor is that if you adjust the weight too high, you cut dps too much and people start deciding that they're better off rolling with less valor and more dps so they mix and match gear, and then the PvP-only types get their jammies in a wad crying that they're being "forced" to PvE in order to remain competitive in PvP.

    It's easy for players to sit back and point out the things they see as problems. Rarely do players see things from a broad enough perspective to actually come up with workable solutions. Think of it this way:

    Let's pretend you're a raider and don't care about PvP. You farmed GSB and RoS and the slivers for the gear and now Hammerknell comes out and every time you get an upgrade out of HK, the impact it has on your performance is trivial. You're not really seeing any progression. By the time you've replaced all your GSB/RoS gear with Hammerknell gear, you can barely tell the difference in terms of performance. Raiders wouldn't be too happy about that.

    And they'd be doubly unhappy if they found out that their progression via gear as raiders was held back because of the impact it would have on PvP gear.

    PvPers often don't want to have to raid to gear for PvP, but if PvE gear gives them a competitive edge, that's what they're going to feel that they have to do.

    Raiders don't want to be told that their game is being influenced by PvPers. They don't want to see nerfs to their souls because of PvP and they don't want to see their progression via gear restricted because of PvP.

    It's not an easy thing for a developer to balance, which is why my sense is that they're keeping a close eye on population numbers and specifically how the ranks are distributed amongst the population and if it looks like they can afford to split warfronts into two tiers without driving up queue times unreasonably for anyone then that might be what they end up doing.

    PvP gear shouldn't be great all around. It should be focused on survival with damaging stats coming in second. This will give players the ability to mix in PvE gear should one feel they have enough mitigation. I'd say drop your dps stats on the PvP gear down a tier(as in P1/2 having the amount a blue would have) and increasing endurance to fit. The dps needs to increase, due to the increased survival rate, but not at the level it is now. This will give healers a new lease on life, give everyone a bit more enjoyable time, and make group tactics even more important(disable healer, pull people, focus, LoS, etc).
    As above, PvPers would be outraged if they were suddenly told that they had to raid to stay competitive. Every time they've found a situation where PvE gear was a clearly better choice in a certain slot over the PvP alternative, they've been extremely vocal about it (ie. GSB saga quest reward gear).

    With or without the gear changes, there needs to be some sorting based on rank. Gear disparity will still be there, less prominent with survivability being the focus, but still there nonetheless. I feel the rank system needs changed first. You've spread your gear in 2 rank increments to make the climb seem not so high, but I feel this is just wrong. In reality there are just 4 ranks, so why not just make it four ranks. Make it where it still takes the same amount of prestige to hit rank 4 as it does 8, but make it where each rank gets the full set of gear. It's kind of dumb having to wait till the next rank to finish your set>.<
    That's not going to change anything. You're just shuffling things around to create the same end result.

    With that said you need to weight your warfront queues with what rank each player is. Rank 4's should be grouped for 4s first, then 3's, then so on. Hold them in queue for up to five minutes(seems to be the magic number) before you allow a higher rank to play with lower ranks. The whole queue system needs to be sorting players as it can and give matches based on that anyway. Currently it just seems to be whos next in line.
    Despite what the vocal minority would have you believe, at the end of the day most players would seem to feel that fast queues are more important that anal retentive matchmaking. Just get me in the fight. We win some, we lose some. Every wargroup seems to have a dominant faction and it has nothing to do with gear or ranks because it's been that way since long before anyone was rank 6. You go in, you fight, you win or you lose, you walk out with favor and prestige either way. Making people wait only to find that the groups after the wait are the same as they were before the changes to the queue system forced them to wait isn't going to fly with a lot of people. Unless you can GUARANTEE that the wait will be justified by the composition of groups you see in each and every warfront, it's not a viable solution. And since you can't guarantee it because it's based entirely on how many people are queuing and what they bring to the table, it's not worth implementing.

    Finally, you need to fix your attitude towards PvP balance. Nerfing everything does not work. It just makes the game get more and more stupid. If the issue is gamebreaking, nerf it. If not, buff around it. In fact, this would be the perfect use for your lazy pvp synergy crystals. The synergy crystal bonus's shouldn't be raw ap/sp, but in fact be utility based. You could make some generic ones that say increase valor or runs peed or whatever, but you can also make some soul based ones. Say you don't get enough Beastmasters in PvP and the soul is considered worthless for it, you could give it's synergy crystal a that gives , say..., Feral Sweep an additional knock back. So now the Beastmaster has an aoe knockback and you start seeing more in the warfronts. It's not a suggestion, just an example of what you can do. Simply put, there shouldn't be any ap/sp on the synergy crystal, it should all be utility and there should be a lot of choices to pick from.
    The trouble with buffing everyone to bring them on par with OP builds is that you reach a certain point where if you buff any more, PvP turns into a one shot, one kill affair. There's a ceiling to how much you can buff before you ruin PvP. No, the solution is not always buffing. If you PvP, and you can be a grown-up in your attitude towards PvP, then you know and accept that sometimes a particular build needs to be nerfed in order to keep things as close to balanced as could reasonably be expected. Giving everyone the kid glove treatment to keep them from having a temper tantrum is usually the worst way to go.

    The devs know this. It's time for the players to learn and accept it, too.

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