+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31
Like Tree4Likes

Thread: Dear Trion: Class Balance

  1. #1
    Soulwalker Bloogy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    13

    Default Dear Trion: Class Balance

    It's safe to say the majority of the RIFT community has played played an mmo or two before. For those of you who are not accustomed to a game where PvP plays such a major role, allow me to catch you up to speed on how these games lose their player base and swindle into obscurity. More often than not, PvP class balance in these games is a never ending roller-coaster of nerfs and buffs, nerfs and buffs. A perfect example is the Mythic mmorpg Dark Age of Camelot. This game was almost solely supported by RvR (realm vs. realm), plenty of pve, but the community stayed and played for the PvP system. Unfortunately, every big patch would make major changes to class balance that would inevitably be following the trend of complaints dominating the forums at that particular time. Every game will have to make changes, but this should not be the process by which changes are made. I have never seen so many people leave a game in groups in my life. There were certain classes that became completely unplayable in PvP, and may has well have been removed form the game altogether. This game has been out for 10+ years now, and they are STILL making class balance adjustments, every...single...patch...I don't believe this is a course that Trion wants to put itself on.

    The second you as a company give in to the perpetual cycle of following "player feedback" in regards to pvp class balance, is the day your game starts to die. And I think we both know what I mean by "player feedback". YOU are the individuals whose job it is to break down the classes you have created, and decide where the true balance level is. YOU have been spending months, if not years putting together these ability trees and build combinations with non biased intentions. The natural dynamics of a game will always evoke the incessant forum ranting and whining from individuals about who killed them and why, and how it was total bs, completely unfair, and such and such class is ridiculously overpowered, how can they allow this to exist? Never to these poor sophomoric souls fully comprehend the vastness of possibilities that could have contributed to this downright offensive outcome. It could of course never, ever be as simple as... YOU'RE GOING TO DIE AT SOME POINT!. As useful as game forums can be for an mmo and it's player base, it is also equally as dangerous an entity. Stick with your gameplan, 90% of your subscribers wouldn't know PvP class balance if it bit their face off. Was RIFT created perfectly without any need for changes? Of course not. However, I've talked to a lot of your subscribers, and trust me...you don't want their advice...on anything.

    P.S. - Yes I play a warrior, yes I think they were nerfed too hard. Should you take my word for it? Hell no.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,038

    Default

    Warriors are fine - more than fine even. To say that no nerf was warranted is just silly. As the only class with an uncleansable heal debuff and more survivability than say Rogues and Mages(that aren't the OP couple builds), there is no way a Warrior be dishing out damage faster than either. If you want to be like a Rogue and make real decisions about which utility, mobility, and survivability you can fit into a single build, then I might feel differently, but as it is there are no hard decisions for a Warrior.

    That being said, I agree with the main point - there should be a target endgame for "PvP Balance", that Trion should be steering towards. Once it is achieved, the only re-balancing taking place should be a result of new abilities or itemization - and not the back and forth swing of who is crying the loudest at any given time. Also, they need to stop throwing one "super powerful ability" into a single tree without giving any other tree something equivalent...it just results in every single build requiring that tree and reduces the amount of customization that should be available in a game like this. EX - Sabodancer because of Deadly Dance buff.
    Last edited by Calo; 08-14-2011 at 07:11 PM.

  3. #3
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,388

    Default

    Healing should have never been nerfed nor should have warriors been nerfed afterwards to try and patch up the mistake of healing nerf.

    They should have left it alone as I died plenty as a cleric, at the hand of warriors, but never minded as also there were times I held my own.

    Now, I am a 2 to 3 slice wonder , not just with warriors, but with dps clerics and rogues too Anyone who has a big sword basically. I can not heal my team very well on certain classes now . What is a shame is I had to shelf my cleric and now I play my healing mage and my bard and do fine.

    The best thing at this point would be to roll ALL classes back to pre 1.4 and then with a very even measured and light hand turn the nob ever so slightly down on healing, and I do mean slightly, one notch at a time until you reach your desired results.

    Warfronts are not even close to as fun as they were pre 1.4. I never did understand the sabs nerf way back, you know they never really bugged me. Yes they killed me, but it was not ridiculous like it is now with my cleric being eaten alive by anyone who wants to hit her with a sword a few times (or a spell)

  4. #4
    Shield of Telara Duvain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Brisbane Australia
    Posts
    780

    Default

    Lots of text, IMHO, heavy handed nerfs often reduce the player quality in a game. In the past heavy handed nerfs have often been followed by the game dropping away to it's niche only subscribers.

    Trion may need to make changes now and then but they do need to move in a systematic non knee jerk manner. Possibly they could have fixed the issues people had with warriors by just making their heal debuff cleansable and then doing some testing.

  5. #5
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    1,602

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Calo View Post
    Warriors are fine - more than fine even. To say that no nerf was warranted is just silly. As the only class with an uncleansable heal debuff and more survivability than say Rogues and Mages(that aren't the OP couple builds), there is no way a Warrior be dishing out damage faster than either. If you want to be like a Rogue and make real decisions about which utility, mobility, and survivability you can fit into a single build, then I might feel differently, but as it is there are no hard decisions for a Warrior.

    That being said, I agree with the main point - there should be a target endgame for "PvP Balance", that Trion should be steering towards. Once it is achieved, the only re-balancing taking place should be a result of new abilities or itemization - and not the back and forth swing of who is crying the loudest at any given time. Also, they need to stop throwing one "super powerful ability" into a single tree without giving any other tree something equivalent...it just results in every single build requiring that tree and reduces the amount of customization that should be available in a game like this. EX - Sabodancer because of Deadly Dance buff.
    Every warfront I ran tonight had warriors built for dps in the middle to the last end of the dps charts. Your arguement is flawed. The problem for warriors is that they are a melee class that now hits with less damage then healers or ranged classes. Warriros can't heal or support. What else are they supposed to do?

    Trion really ruined the game for a large percentage of the player base. I really can't see players sticking around after this nonsense. Trion better change things back and fast or Rift will go by the way of Warhammer and other lower tier games.

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,038

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorin View Post
    Every warfront I ran tonight had warriors built for dps in the middle to the last end of the dps charts. Your arguement is flawed. The problem for warriors is that they are a melee class that now hits with less damage then healers or ranged classes. Warriros can't heal or support. What else are they supposed to do?

    Trion really ruined the game for a large percentage of the player base. I really can't see players sticking around after this nonsense. Trion better change things back and fast or Rift will go by the way of Warhammer and other lower tier games.
    Like I said, if the Warrior wants that kind of damage, they need to give up utility, like every other class. As it was, the Warrior had high damage, good CC, good defense, the best heal debuff in the game, good mobility, etc etc all in one build. As a Rogue, just deciding I want some type of mobility essentially means that burst damage will be gimped. Not having 32 points to spare for a melee tree means that I will not have a decent heal debuff (anathema on a 30s timer AND cleansable - Fell Blades is cleansable but can at least be re-applied randomly). The only effective CC like BI is 44 points into Assassin(arguably one of the squishiest classes in the game) - aside from bard AoE mez, which is usally interrupted due to the cast time (and thus no mez-bombing like fear-bombs).

    The problem with Warriors was never the damage - it was that they had the damage along with everything else, while the rest of us are making sacrifices to achieve high damage, or a good heal debuff, or enough mobility to not get kited. Fact is, high dps on Warriors or not, with LW anything in their radius that gets focused dies because of it. That is more powerful than any other ability in this game. Warriors don't have a leg to stand on as long as they are the only class with that kind of power.

    And FYI - Warriors still scoring great on my cluster. Pre-1.4, the top 5 dps slots were almost always Warriors. Sorry that you have to deal with the fact your time on top is over, for the time being.
    Last edited by Calo; 08-14-2011 at 08:53 PM.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    35

    Default

    I really have to agree, I rolled a warrior and in warfronts, warriors are always last for DPS, while you have clerics that can heal but still do 1,000,000+ dmg while the best warriors barely top 100,000.... how is it even possible that a healer can do 10x the damage a warrior can do?

    A warrior is pretty useless for everything now that's it is nerfed, I was a long time World of Warcraft player and left to play this game, a lot because I thought their PvP was unbalanced. Unfortunately, I had no remote clue what PvP imbalance really was like until now. Trion showed me the extreme side of ridiculous nerfs and imbalance.

    If you're going to nerf warriors that much, why not just remove them completely from the game? They are useless except for dying a lot unless you have rank 8 gear, even then you can't do any real damage, you just die a little less.

    Speaking of which, Blizzard sent me 7 free days of time, I think I'll go play that for a bit cause I know trion isn't going to fix this one.

  8. #8
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by darkfires View Post
    I really have to agree, I rolled a warrior and in warfronts, warriors are always last for DPS, while you have clerics that can heal but still do 1,000,000+ dmg while the best warriors barely top 100,000.... how is it even possible that a healer can do 10x the damage a warrior can do?

    A warrior is pretty useless for everything now that's it is nerfed, I was a long time World of Warcraft player and left to play this game, a lot because I thought their PvP was unbalanced. Unfortunately, I had no remote clue what PvP imbalance really was like until now. Trion showed me the extreme side of ridiculous nerfs and imbalance.

    If you're going to nerf warriors that much, why not just remove them completely from the game? They are useless except for dying a lot unless you have rank 8 gear, even then you can't do any real damage, you just die a little less.

    Speaking of which, Blizzard sent me 7 free days of time, I think I'll go play that for a bit cause I know trion isn't going to fix this one.
    Are we playing the same game?

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Do you need to see screenshots of clerics putting out 1 million damage to believe ?

    If so I will post one.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    224

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloogy View Post
    The second you as a company give in to the perpetual cycle of following "player feedback" in regards to pvp class balance, is the day your game starts to die
    The success or failure in any MMO rests on that sole fact.

    Many MMO's try, as soon as the above happens, well... the OP has spoken the truth. Im sure we have all seen this happen in many, many new MMO's.

    I was hoping different for this game, looks like I was wrong.... again.

    The sad thing is, dev's watch this happen to other games, and have yet to learn this simple fact.

    Nice post OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Auden View Post
    I think the problem is too many terrible players in Rift that are involved with PVP.

    As well as when they die in PVP, all they see on their screen is the warrior.. not the other 5 ranged classes that assisted him.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Zelarus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    19

    Default

    You can't say warriors are completely gimped. In the Battlegroup I play on, warriors still top damage. BUT most of it seems to be gear dependent. I play a 50 mage, rogue and cleric....the mage and my rogue can get crushed fairly easily, depending on the warriors Rank gear. R7/8...to my R3/4. I still take 3-4 shots and watch my health bar fall to zero as I am stunned the whole time with my bars greyed out. Clerics seem to be on top right now. I have seen them dish out lots of damage, cabalist aoe mainly. Rogues are getting better, if you spec sabo and ARE geared in R7/8. You may not take out warriors easily, but mages and lower geared rogues still fall easily....deadeye shot has critted my mage for 2800+.

    I have so much trouble bringing down a healing cleric...and watch closely as to how many people it takes to bring them down. CC is the key here, interrupts, stuns are effective, if timed right between others in your raid. However, if there are a couple really good geared R8 healers, this is a huge challenge. SO what does this all mean...

    I don't think there are huge class imbalances..just some tweaking that trion needs to figure out. But gear is making a huge difference. The ranks are too great of a difference. I am grinding my way...granted its slow, but with each Rank, I noticed the damage is better and I don't go down as easily. The grind is more difficult since whatever battlegroup I am in seems to lose WF quite often. But in the long run, I hope I won't be disappointed when I reach R8.

  12. #12
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by darkfires View Post
    Do you need to see screenshots of clerics putting out 1 million damage to believe ?

    If so I will post one.
    Oh no, I believe you there. Lots of people clustering in a mass + Cabalist is nice damage numbers for the cleric. Looking at killing blows might give a more accurate representation of their overall damage (although not wholly accurate to assess the extent of the damage dealt, neither is just a raw damage number).

    Warrior is extremely strong given good gear. You will die a lot without, but so will anyone.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Any player is going to be strong in Rank 8 gear... but the imbalance is still there regardless vs other class at similar progress.

    Unless you play a warrior yourself, save the warriors aren't that nerfed speech.

  14. #14
    Champion
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    576

    Default

    I hope you enjoy posting things like this because its never going to mean anything to anyone that matters... this game will continue to make stupid attempts to rebalance an end game that slashed itself with a fatal blow right after they gave it the OK, its just in the process of cricling the drain of dead MMOs (at least PvP wise i've never done late game PvE so that could still be on the path to keeping a solid player base). Unless you work for the company this is just a place to vent your anger and troll nubs, nothing more nothing less. Also I doubt anyone will make an MMO that will do anything but in the near future.. so best of luck with your forum ventures and ya it seems like they just wanted to please the most people with the least thought (thus the rehashed prestige system and obnoxious gear gap and of course your point their call to hire a couple guys to read rage posts in order to balance a game...)
    Last edited by garethh; 08-25-2011 at 06:40 PM.

  15. #15
    Champion j3w3l's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Brisvegas
    Posts
    520

    Default

    its funny how this thread has deteriorated into a nerf this thread, when that was not the point of the op's post.
    we are inherently biased in our arguments based on the class we play. unless you have played each and every class at high level for an equal amount of time you cannot judge other classes on balance.
    i thought the heal nerf was completely unjustified probably because i am a healer, i think warriors were a little op probably because they were the ones in my face when i died (quite often your being focus fired but the war is an easy target to blame your death on) although even i recognise the nerfed the wrong things.

    While some classes and soul combos could be called op it is only certain sittuations, they are only so in the hands of good competant players, with the right gear, and usually back up.
    i have come across many people who decimated me the game before but because of a slightly less skilled team they are completely ineffective. i have met many wars, clerics, mages and rogues that are completely ineffective in their class, i have also met those who play it with perfection and you can better believe there is a huge difference.. and their should be.

    The issue here is that trion seems to be knee jerk nerfing classes (rather hard) based on forum qq which is a completely flawed way of doing things. They should instead be making small calculated changes, based on their own observations and class goals, that they test, and at the same time tell us specifically what is happening. Actually much of the qq actually seems to stem from trions lack of information regarding certain issues, alittle in this case would go a long way and no saying "class is fine" while there are obvious issues is not okay.. give specifics.
    So long rift, may your potential someday be realised

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts