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Thread: The PVP is dying

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default The PVP is dying

    I have thought about this and wanted to come here and post some of my thoughts about some failures of the PVP system, how it's dying, and why many people that play for PVP reasons will be looking for something new soon. I have leveled up to 50 (which is extremely easy and painless along the way and can be done in many different ways of playing. Nice work there.), gotten to rank 4 and closing in on rank 5, so I think I've gotten a feel for the game fairly well. I don't PVE much at all. From what I understand the PVE part of the game is doing well, but I honestly wouldn't know. This is a PVP forum so I'm talking about that.

    First of all, there is basically no reason to do world PVP. From what I've seen on the forums and talking to friends and in my own opinion, that's what people that really enjoy PVP want. Give us something to fight for, some reason to get out there as Guardian and Defiant armies and want to bash each other's brains in. Give us something to take over, some goals to reach, something to say we are winning the war and it will give more reason to keep fighting it.

    The PVP rifts were an interesting idea, with horrible implementation. Make the reward for closing it, period. Get rid of the stones. Make them mega rifts with mega rewards (better loot- but not game changing! and bigger favor/prestige) that cause massive fights between the sides to see who gets it closed. That's something to fight over.

    The balance is terrible with the different ranks of gear. I was a fresh 50 once and getting facerolled by a rank 6 player sucked. Period. R1's have zero chance, and they contribute very little to a fight unless they can heal or crowd control (my main is a mage so I was actually a little useful at least). Do I think somebody that has put in the time and played to get that rank should have an advantage? Yes. Do I think the R1's should have zero chance? No.

    PVP faction (different warfronts) rewards become pointless as we rank up. I just noticed this today really as I was looking at my notoriety and wondering what was available for my next notoriety increases. We get the Prestige gear and the faction vendor gear becomes useless even though there are faction gains left to get and gear that isn't available to us yet. Give us options to choose from, even if it's based on looks alone or minor differences in stats.

    Slow down on swinging the nerf bat. Did I think Parachamps and Cabalists were a nightmare? Yes. Did I want some changes? Yes. Do I think you should have jumped on them and bashed them on the head that hard? No way. It's called balance. You have to tweak a little here and a little there. I, and I think most of your playerbase, would rather see many small changes to try to get everybody on an even playing field rather than massive changes all at once that wind up swinging balance out of whack the other way. It's like you're just throwing things out there to see what works and if it "fixes" things.

    This game has great potential in the PVP area. So many players have had great suggestions here on these forums. Please listen to some of them.

  2. #2
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granitejaw View Post
    First of all, there is basically no reason to do world PVP. From what I've seen on the forums and talking to friends and in my own opinion, that's what people that really enjoy PVP want. Give us something to fight for, some reason to get out there as Guardian and Defiant armies and want to bash each other's brains in. Give us something to take over, some goals to reach, something to say we are winning the war and it will give more reason to keep fighting it.
    Oddly enough, the animosity between the factions that was instilled in us at the beginning basically starts to disappear once you reach Scarwood Reach.. at that point, the Guardians and Defiant actually starting working together - working for the same third party factions to accomplish the same goal. As you hit Moonshade and Droughtlands, it's even a case of shared quest hubs on the journey to Iron Pine/Shimmer/Stillmoor.

    Perhaps if they had fostered that antagonism and nourished it... rather than what they did, eh?


    The PVP rifts were an interesting idea, with horrible implementation. Make the reward for closing it, period. Get rid of the stones. Make them mega rifts with mega rewards (better loot- but not game changing! and bigger favor/prestige) that cause massive fights between the sides to see who gets it closed. That's something to fight over.
    Still think it is funny that you can get credit on PvE shards for the rifts and defending the stone runners without ever flagging. A person could be farming Mathos rep and tada - rewards.

    The balance is terrible with the different ranks of gear. I was a fresh 50 once and getting facerolled by a rank 6 player sucked. Period. R1's have zero chance, and they contribute very little to a fight unless they can heal or crowd control (my main is a mage so I was actually a little useful at least). Do I think somebody that has put in the time and played to get that rank should have an advantage? Yes. Do I think the R1's should have zero chance? No.
    For World PvP, pretty sure everybody expects it to be a come as you are deal that is likely to be imbalanced as such. However for the WFs, where the "sub-factions" are actually sending people in to fight - the lack of balance from this is kind of absurd. As more PvE raids are added and more PvP ranks come along, this is only going to get worse.

    PVP faction (different warfronts) rewards become pointless as we rank up. I just noticed this today really as I was looking at my notoriety and wondering what was available for my next notoriety increases. We get the Prestige gear and the faction vendor gear becomes useless even though there are faction gains left to get and gear that isn't available to us yet. Give us options to choose from, even if it's based on looks alone or minor differences in stats.
    It is kind of funny, because Scion offers better than the R1 weapons...but you need those R1 weapons to buy the R4 weapons which are better than the Scion weapons. It is obviously something they did not think through while doing the path upgrade system. Then again, perhaps they did - they made things cheaper and faster to get Favor... so wasting some on the Scion stuff on the way to R4 is not really that bad.

    Slow down on swinging the nerf bat. Did I think Parachamps and Cabalists were a nightmare? Yes. Did I want some changes? Yes. Do I think you should have jumped on them and bashed them on the head that hard? No way. It's called balance. You have to tweak a little here and a little there. I, and I think most of your playerbase, would rather see many small changes to try to get everybody on an even playing field rather than massive changes all at once that wind up swinging balance out of whack the other way. It's like you're just throwing things out there to see what works and if it "fixes" things.
    Yeah, there was a bunch of tweaking in the betas - since the headstart though, it's been some drunken swinging of massive nerf/buff bats that makes little sense. Considering the number of Hot Fixes we deal with anyway, yeah - tweaking more and nerfing/buffing less would definitely work out better. They definitely need to audit/QA things better.

    This game has great potential in the PVP area. So many players have had great suggestions here on these forums. Please listen to some of them.
    PvP in RIFT will always be limited by the meatier mob with a bigger club PvE design mentality and the sloppy two faction system unfortunately. It would take a complete redesign of the game... though, there are things that they could do to make the stay more enjoyable and less painful given those two glaring issues.
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
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  3. #3
    Telaran SirSensi's Avatar
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    Well, while I will agree on some points, I do not think that PvP is dying entirely.

    I do agree with the gear setting... Perhaps a fix would be for Trion to some how implement a 'Rank Check' - woukd work like so: You queue for all Warfronts, and the system (in the background) checks your current Prestiege Ranking. So you will be going head to head with even geared players. Downside to this would be longer queue times.

    Open world PvP is great, when rolling with a team (i.e. friends/guildies). But being flagged PvP and just running around solo can be pretty bad, since (from my experience running around) Ive hardly seen any opposing factioned players solo. Always paired.

    I may be talking out of my leauge atm, since Im not 50 yet, but I am aware. I do PvP and PvE and I will agree, with the Rested system doing PvE is quick, and the right set up soloing is not entirely out of the question.

    Like most MMO's, this one is PvE-centric with PvP included. The PvP Rifts seem like they would be fun. It all boils down to what server you play on and when entering a WF, what 6 other servers yours get paired with. If your on a PvP server, you play against a few PvE-servered people. Those said people do not always want to PvP so they wont be queueing up as soon as they get logged in.

  4. #4
    Ascendant
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    Agree, but as I get to know this game and the team that is running it, honestly, I think they have a good heart as a team and really try to please, but they miss the point half the time.

    People don't want massive nerfs when they whine, as you said, they want fine tuning, like a dial , you turn it up and down a notch, don't be afraid to rescind a change when its too much either.

    People DO want world pvp, when are game makers going to get this? Tarren Mill in WOW a good example, that was fun. It was nothing to gain by doing it, just fun. The battles back and forth, we did it for the fun and maybe a title.

    It was how they set up the quest hubs etc.

    I don't know what to say. I am very let down with this game, I came back after a break and really, they are chasing me back out the door, and I really want to stay, but its hard. I am going along...but their best hope at this point is to stop with the ridiculous nerfs.

    I wonder if they have already given up on it. Some of the stuff Scott said I already see happening, he said he did not want people standing around cities waiting for their LFG to pop

    Remember battles outside Scarlet Monastery? These are the things I see lacking in RIFT. Just random battles for something or to get to something.

  5. #5
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastaah View Post
    People DO want world pvp, when are game makers going to get this? Tarren Mill in WOW a good example, that was fun. It was nothing to gain by doing it, just fun. The battles back and forth, we did it for the fun and maybe a title.
    Thing is, if you look around - there are very few people that want the 24/7 TMvSS. Heck, it disappeared from WoW. It is a different generation of gamer - a different mindset.

    If they do anything, they want something shiny for it.

    The 24/7 TMvSS was there from the go in RIFT if...if...if people wanted it. They did not. They want to be rewarded. The fun of PvP is not rewarding to them.
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
    DEFIANT

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    I agree that people usually want a reward for their pvp, but that's what the favor/prestige system gives them, at least to some degree, in Rift. Even if you just make it fluff stuff for world pvp rewards then people will do it. I think an online ranking system or something for WORLD pvp would be something to look at.

    I play with a friend and for the most part in games past we always ran around together and tried to find fights just to do it. It was the fun part of PVP for us, and we did PVE and wanted loot just to get better at running around fighting people on our own. Somehow that dynamic in Rift just doesn't seem to happen. Maybe it's too easy to run into groups of the enemy and get mowed down because we all have quest hubs and camps in the same areas. Maybe it's because some classes can just tear through others and if you run into somebody with better gear they're going to kill you no matter what you do. I don't know.

    We used to be in on those Tarren Mill fights. We used to go to opposing camps and towns and try to find people close by. Now that I think about it, we always got close to the towns, but not in them. Maybe that's part of the problem. In Rift you can just happily kill the enemy and not worry about the NPC's for the most part. So, you wind up with gank squads running around steamrolling solo players and being able to actually camp respawn points.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    Honestly, I also think warfronts and instanced PVP just kills world PVP. For me that happened in WOW after the newness of the BG's wore off. You can get in, get your rewards fast, whether you win or lose really, and then get out and do it again. It has no meaning in the actual game. It's like a completely different game in itself. It's fun for a while, but in the overall scheme of things it means nothing in the game world.

  8. #8
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granitejaw View Post
    Honestly, I also think warfronts and instanced PVP just kills world PVP. For me that happened in WOW after the newness of the BG's wore off. You can get in, get your rewards fast, whether you win or lose really, and then get out and do it again. It has no meaning in the actual game. It's like a completely different game in itself. It's fun for a while, but in the overall scheme of things it means nothing in the game world.
    Thing is, the part in red... applies to PvE as well. Nothing anybody does really matters. Trion wanted things to matter, but in the end - even invasions will just disappear after a period of time if you ignore them. Then things are right back to where they were. It is a themepark - nothing matters - nothing changes... it's just a case of did you enjoy the ride and would you come back again...?

    Many are not enjoying the ride...many are...but many are not.
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
    (1) Carrion -> (2) Threesprings -> (3) Deepwood
    *formerly Plague@Carrion
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  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Yeah that's a good way to put it. I wanted to put more in there along those lines but just ended my post.

    To me DAOC is the closest anybody came to getting it right as far as the PVP goes. It felt more like a long, ongoing war with the other factions. You won some, you lost some. Sometimes you were in control and on top, and sometimes you were being dominated. It gave a reason to keep battling and was fun for a longer period of time. You got to see your name on the online rankings if you were doing well for the week or day, or over a long period of time. You earned something for winning, but it was more about the winning and just being able to say you won than the rewards.

    As for the PVE becoming meaningless, I agree with you. That's why MMO's in the past introduced expansion after expansion with bigger and better rewards. Eventually guilds beat the top tier raiding content, so they want something else.

    For me it's more about the fun and challenge of going against other players, but the system in Rift just doesn't seem to have that dynamic done very well. It needs help. Right now for the most part it's the same warfronts over and over. Sure, there are four to choose from, but that isn't much variety, and it's just about grinding to the next Prestige rank. It's a lot like running the same dungeons over and over just to try to get that one piece of loot you haven't gotten yet.
    Last edited by Granitejaw; 08-14-2011 at 10:00 AM.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granitejaw View Post
    For me it's more about the fun and challenge of going against other players, but the system in Rift just doesn't seem to have that dynamic done very well. It needs help. Right now for the most part it's the same warfronts over and over. Sure, there are four to choose from, but that isn't much variety, and it's just about grinding to the next Prestige rank. It's a lot like running the same dungeons over and over just to try to get that one piece of loot you haven't gotten yet.
    You know the devs are farming us, right? If you feed them it will just get worse.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Taptap's Avatar
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    For me, PvP is already dead except for just one of my 5 total toons. One has finally made it to PR6 but it was not a fun process whatsoever. It was a process of stubborn determination and endless grinding, and it certainly was not fun for me. I like having a chance to win in all 1v1 scenarios, period. Without that chance, such as that very long grind of being farmed almost forever by much higher ranked players, it was NOT fun to advance in PvP rank. And I don't want to have to play a Role that I just don't really like playing for a long time (say, a healing role) - I want to play the Role that I chose and enjoy playing. That's it.

    Pigs will grow wings and fly in the real world before I progress another toon in PvP at level 50, the way things are now. Once was enough, I didn't enjoy the irritants (such as but not limited to not having ranked warfront queues regardless of if there'd be long queues or not) that were roadblock to the fun I felt a different design implementation could have provided me while grinding away to PR6. I'll take that one PR6 toon to PR8, but that's it for me. The fact that those same irritants still exist is a put off for me. Make it fun or I won't play other toons in warfronts, and that's that. I play a game to have fun, not to be irritated.
    Specter
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  12. #12
    Ascendant
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    BG's killed the TM vs SS in WOW, but I hear ya I would love to see TM vs SS with the battleground/warfront type rewards and objectives.

    A bit more work but I wager to the gaming team that conquers this quest, the reward will be amazing !!

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    I literally just logged in and played a few WF's then logged right back out. I am so bored of them, they mean absolutely nothing. In face the last game I just ran up mashing a few buttons, died, repawned, did the same - dont even know who won, who really cares. There is not reason to it, and how many times have I seen the same WF, and no creating a new one wont change a thing.

    Why even advance ranks, so you can log into the same instances of WFs again, and what for..

    I am totally bored of all this instance tosh. I thought the same when they brought them into WoW (I was on a PVP server) and world PVP insta died. Terrible idea.

    In fact I just cancelled my sub. Says it all.
    Last edited by Synjyn; 08-14-2011 at 01:06 PM.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    I hear what you are saying man, but I think there are some counter points to what you are arguing. This is game is about gear....period. There is some skill involved, but you are right if you are p6 you will decimate a p1. This is annoying but at the same time, being p4, i dont want a p1 to be an even match. What is really worse than the rank system, is the number of premades. the pvp faction gear is a joke true, except for the new one, can get some good stuff.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    Well just so you guys know, hardcore pvpers are not welcome at swtor.

    "The game is not aimed at the Hardcore player but the Star Wars, RPG and Bioware Fans"

    "And all this takes place in the name of fun. BioWare want their first MMO to be as full of life, character and story as their single-player RPGs. “We have to ignore the top of the hardcore,” says Walton, talking about those players who will simply ignore the story and min-max their way to the top end of the game. “We need to make a game that is accessible to the Star Wars fan, and the BioWare fan. Because really BioWare is a company that is about making a great RPG experience, not about making games for a hardcore MMO audience.”

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