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Thread: What really needs to be changed?

  1. #1
    Plane Touched faulty's Avatar
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    Default What really needs to be changed?

    If you're coming in here to post hyperbole or unfounded statements, please go elsewhere. This is for a serious discussion about PvP balance. Math, videos, and empirical data of any sort are welcome. Whiners can go home.
    So, with 1.4 Hotfix #5 we've seen a heavy-handed reduction in damage output for Warriors. This appears to be in response to complaints on the forums about Warrior damage output. I believe that this fails to address the real issues in PvP, which are somewhat class-agnostic.

    According to a lot of posts on the forums, there are three major problems in PvP:
    - Lingering Wounds (see below)
    - Harsh DR on CC abilities and CC grouping that players do not understand.
    - Valor scaling.

    My first post is going to deal with Lingering Wounds, mainly because I think the Paragon changes should be reverted in lieu of a change to healing debuffs across the board.

    I've posted this in a few threads:

    Warriors aren't broken. The healing nerf in 1.4 combined with Lingering Wounds is whats broken. Reposting this here:

    LW applies through just about everything a warrior does (including AOE fear), isn't dispellable, has a fairly high duration (15s), has no cooldown, and is basically up all the time. Lets take a look at the other healing debuffs in the game:

    Anathema - Rogue - 15 pt Infiltrator - 30 second duration, 30 second cooldown. Instant. Dispellable.
    Fell Blades - Rogue - 32 pt Nightblade - 15 second duration, 10 second internal cooldown. Applies on melee hit. Dispellable.
    Void Shroud - Mage - 18 pt Dominator - 10 second duration, 10 second cooldown. Instant. Dispellable.
    Blight - Mage - 38 pt Chloromancer - 10 second duration, 30 second cooldown. Instant. Also dispels HOT effects. Dispellable.
    Spiteful Spirit - Cleric - 44 pt Druid - 15 second duration, 8 second cooldown. Instant. Dispellable.

    All of these abilities have cooldowns and are dispellable. Fell Blades is the closest to LW, but it has an internal cooldown and is dispellable. Also, there aren't many 32pt Nightblades.

    As it stands, a warrior is a walking 50% heal debuff on anything within 20m. Automatically. With no additional effort on the part of the Warrior.
    Lets do some math. We'll compare a Warrior's potential healing reduction with a Rogue's versus Warden HOTs against 5 targets.

    Assume Rogue is 32pt Nightblade with Fell Blades up.
    Assume Warrior is a Ragestorm/Parachamp build with 2/2 Lingering Wounds (50%)

    These numbers are far from accurate and are just based off of what I remember when healing WFs post-1.4:
    Soothing Stream x4: ~500
    Healing Spray: ~120
    Healing Current: ~70
    Healing Flood: ~125
    Total potential healing: 815 hp/tick
    Total healing per tick on 5 targets assuming all 5 have full HOTs (unlikely): 4075 hp/tick

    The Rogue will debuff a single target, resulting in a 10% overall reduction. (4075 - 407.5) / 4075 = 0.9. This reduction is curable.

    The Warrior is able to debuff up to 8 targets with Path of the Hurricane or unlimited targets with Battlefield Intimidation. This results in a 50% reduction as all 5 targets are debuffed. Uncurable.

    Over 5 ticks, the rogue will prevent ~2037 hp in healing.
    The warrior will prevent TEN TIMES that - 20,375 hp.

    This seems a little bit excessive, considering that LW is uncurable. If this is intended design, maybe LW should be single target only, and abilities like Void Shroud and Anathema should be made AOE?

    I'll post more tomorrow after I get a chance to play with the new changes.
    Last edited by faulty; 08-11-2011 at 09:42 PM.

  2. #2
    Rift Master
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    Lingering Wounds is definitely the biggest "issue" with warriors in PvP, although Intimidating Shout isn't far behind.

    I'd like to see Lingering Wounds turned into a stacking, cleanse-able debuff. Every crit reduces healing by 10% up to a maximum of 50%. This design is obviously an overall nerf, but it I think it truly balances the debuff in a way that's at least moderately fair to warriors. Yes, it becomes cleanse-able - but you'd really have to work to keep it off the target (and subsequently drop a few heals in doing so). Plus the slower ramping up period would effectively lower warrior "burst", which is definitely too high.

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara baph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faulty View Post
    So, with 1.4 Hotfix #5 we've seen a heavy-handed reduction in damage output for Warriors. This appears to be in response to complaints on the forums about Warrior damage output.
    This completely contradicts this:

    Quote Originally Posted by faulty View Post
    According to a lot of posts on the forums, there are three major problems in PvP:
    - Lingering Wounds (see below)
    - Harsh DR on CC abilities and CC grouping that players do not understand.
    - Valor scaling.
    I'm not disagreeing with you. LW is the likely the main culprit. But obviously they aren't just throwing nerfs around based on forum complaints.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched faulty's Avatar
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    I could have worded it better. Besides damage output, those 3 points comprise the majority of the other complaints from what I've seen. People complain about being killed too quickly by Warriors, but most of the complaints seem to come from lower ranked players who were killed by higher ranks.

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