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Thread: Trion, please make all ranged attacks scale with distance from target.

  1. #1
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    Default Trion, please make all ranged attacks scale with distance from target.

    There is really only one solution to end the debate over who should do the most damage at a given range. Make everyone do the same. Currently warriors do well but only when in melee range. Casters get rushed by a warrior and in most cases cannot out damage a warrior in melee, and feel that somehow this is unfair. The only solution to this is to make everyone stand at melee range to do their max damage.

    We'll have the mouth breathers in here any minute saying the other classes aren't designed to get into melee, so now that they acknowledge the need for gap closers on warrior, we'll just go ahead and give them gap closers too. But wait, they need defense right? They have to be in melee so we'll buff their armor to be equal to plate. That would be kinda unfair to physical damage dealing classes though, so everyone will get magic resist to be on par with physical resist. The end result is everyone deals the same long ranged damage, and everyone deals the same short ranged damage. Go ahead and give them all the same health too.

    It's really the only way to solve this debate. Maybe after a few days of being forced to get into melee to do single target damage they will beg for things to go back the way they were, where casters win from range and melee wins from melee range. Imagine that...melee classes do the most damage when at melee range and the least from long-range.. Crazy concept, I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    There is really only one solution to end the debate over who should do the most damage at a given range. Make everyone do the same. Currently warriors do well but only when in melee range. Casters get rushed by a warrior and in most cases cannot out damage a warrior in melee, and feel that somehow this is unfair. The only solution to this is to make everyone stand at melee range to do their max damage.

    We'll have the mouth breathers in here any minute saying the other classes aren't designed to get into melee, so now that they acknowledge the need for gap closers on warrior, we'll just go ahead and give them gap closers too. But wait, they need defense right? They have to be in melee so we'll buff their armor to be equal to plate. That would be kinda unfair to physical damage dealing classes though, so everyone will get magic resist to be on par with physical resist. The end result is everyone deals the same long ranged damage, and everyone deals the same short ranged damage. Go ahead and give them all the same health too.

    It's really the only way to solve this debate. Maybe after a few days of being forced to get into melee to do single target damage they will beg for things to go back the way they were, where casters win from range and melee wins from melee range. Imagine that...melee classes do the most damage when at melee range and the least from long-range.. Crazy concept, I know.
    Na, I like the game how it is now. Thanks Trion, take my $15.

    More PVP goods tho please! Keep bringing more PVP goodies! Love the PVP crystals, and how I can use my pvp gear in raids now!
    Last edited by kdps; 08-09-2011 at 07:47 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdps View Post
    Na, I like the game how it is now.
    Well apparently many people don't like the current system of play melee to do high melee damage and play caster to do high ranged. We have to remind them why they rolled the class they did and what their real advantage is.

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    The problem as a mage isn't so much the damage that warriors do, it's the amount of gap closers the warriors have vs. the amount of distance extenders that mages have.

    If a Warrior closes the gap to a mage the mage is supposed to die. It's just become to easy for a warrior to close that gap and maintain that closeness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    There is really only one solution to end the debate over who should do the most damage at a given range. Make everyone do the same. Currently warriors do well but only when in melee range. Casters get rushed by a warrior and in most cases cannot out damage a warrior in melee, and feel that somehow this is unfair. The only solution to this is to make everyone stand at melee range to do their max damage.

    We'll have the mouth breathers in here any minute saying the other classes aren't designed to get into melee, so now that they acknowledge the need for gap closers on warrior, we'll just go ahead and give them gap closers too. But wait, they need defense right? They have to be in melee so we'll buff their armor to be equal to plate. That would be kinda unfair to physical damage dealing classes though, so everyone will get magic resist to be on par with physical resist. The end result is everyone deals the same long ranged damage, and everyone deals the same short ranged damage. Go ahead and give them all the same health too.

    It's really the only way to solve this debate. Maybe after a few days of being forced to get into melee to do single target damage they will beg for things to go back the way they were, where casters win from range and melee wins from melee range. Imagine that...melee classes do the most damage when at melee range and the least from long-range.. Crazy concept, I know.
    Or maybe make it so you can acctualy kite a warrior, Crazy concept, I know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baian View Post
    The problem as a mage isn't so much the damage that warriors do, it's the amount of gap closers the warriors have vs. the amount of distance extenders that mages have.

    If a Warrior closes the gap to a mage the mage is supposed to die. It's just become to easy for a warrior to close that gap and maintain that closeness.
    A warrior has at best TWO gap closers. As I pointed out, a dps that depends on melee range must have a way to close that gap. If you give mages a teleport equal in cooldown and range to a warriors gap closers, isnt that the same as warriors never having a gap closer at all? Without cooldowns, a warrior who is being kited does pathetic damage.

    Back to the thread topic, if the current system is imbalanced give everyone the same range and damage limitations and see if people like it better.

    Funny thing, I thought people chose their play style, ranged caster or melee, and rolled the appropriate class. I guess you cant have a game with different play styles because someone always feels like they are getting the shaft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    A warrior has at best TWO gap closers.
    Technically that might be true for most builds, but I have to admit I can see the OPness vs mages when I'm running with Riftwalk+Planar Blade+Way of the Mountain+Fleet of Foot+Bull Rush. The only thing a mage can do to keep away from me is Snare me while they're already more than 20m away (and nobody else is around) or use Storm Shackle (which I can't purge w/o VK).

    (Haters please keep in mind I traded higher damage for this kind of utility)
    Last edited by -Swag-; 08-09-2011 at 08:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanabull View Post
    Or maybe make it so you can acctualy kite a warrior, Crazy concept, I know.
    Alright sure, sounds good, and anyone who is moving takes half damage from casted spells, since thats about the best a warrior puts out when being kited. Depending on spec, far less than half.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -Swag- View Post
    Technically that might be true for most builds, but I have to admit I can see the OPness vs mages when I'm running with Riftwalk+Planar Blade+Way of the Mountain+Fleet of Foot+Bull Rush. The only thing a mage can do to keep away from me is Snare me while they're already more than 20m away (and nobody else is around) or use Storm Shackle (which I can't purge w/o VK).

    (Haters please keep in mind I traded higher damage for this kind of utility)
    I think this is a big part of the problem people have. They think the 44 or 38 paragon builds have all of this in addition to the burst when in reality they do not.

    Even with the utility your spec picks up, you should still do decent damage when in melee. You just trade some damage for more insurance against CC.
    Last edited by Fatalflaw; 08-09-2011 at 08:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    Without cooldowns, a warrior who is being kited does pathetic damage.
    Try kiting on a mage sometime. Assuming I'm not slowed, rooted, stunned, etc and can actually kite a warrior the warrior out DPSes me. Why? Because almost my skills are induction or channeled and don't work if I'm moving. Kiting just delays my death in the hopes that someone else will kill the warrior. (obviously different specs have different abilities so I am referring to the one I use)

  11. #11
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    Warriors are fine.

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  12. #12
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    I swear all these nerf threads about everyone doing "the same damage" or wearing "the same gear". There are pvp games that offer just this, Black Ops is a great example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    There is really only one solution to end the debate over who should do the most damage at a given range. Make everyone do the same. Currently warriors do well but only when in melee range. Casters get rushed by a warrior and in most cases cannot out damage a warrior in melee, and feel that somehow this is unfair. The only solution to this is to make everyone stand at melee range to do their max damage.
    To an extent, that would be a good start. Though, it should not just be about damage. One could still do more damage than another at range, but at higher energy cost. To be fair, I've oft wondered why that is not already the case. Shoot an arrow at point blank range...shoot the arrow from 35m out. In order to do the same damage, you'd obviously need more force spent on the longer shot as some of the energy is lot along the travel. As for spells, who is to say that a similar function would not be required for certain spells that have to travel a physical path as well.

    Or wait, is it a case they have figured the damage at max range and they simply are not reducing the cost nor increasing the damage for closer range? Or have they perhaps taken an average? Only Trion could answer that...

    ...was going to say it would be a good start, but not just about damage - that to equalize it, you'd really need to get into the same combat mechanics - addressing cast times, push back, the ability to build Spell Points in lieu of AP/CP - etc. But perhaps that is not the way to really look at it, so never mind...

    We'll have the mouth breathers in here any minute saying the other classes aren't designed to get into melee, so now that they acknowledge the need for gap closers on warrior, we'll just go ahead and give them gap closers too.
    If one were to continue along that path of reasoning, obviously they would have to be added for others or removed for Warriors.

    But wait, they need defense right? They have to be in melee so we'll buff their armor to be equal to plate. That would be kinda unfair to physical damage dealing classes though, so everyone will get magic resist to be on par with physical resist.
    Well, you'd still need to address cast times and add in SP similar to AP/CP...

    The end result is everyone deals the same long ranged damage, and everyone deals the same short ranged damage. Go ahead and give them all the same health too.
    Would need to also have the same CC/anti-CC... if you really want to continue along that path...

    It's really the only way to solve this debate. Maybe after a few days of being forced to get into melee to do single target damage they will beg for things to go back the way they were, where casters win from range and melee wins from melee range.
    Actually, I doubt they would beg for things to change for the reason you suggested. Because what you suggested would actually result in balance.... well, along with what I said.

    Of course, none of it addresses heals - so either Warriors would have to get equal healing capabilities or healing would have to be done away with... etc, to get that actual balance going.

    The reason people would likely beg for the change is because everything would end up being the same. You'd have the Warrior hitting with Dual Strike for X damage on an instant cast while having the Pyro with Flame Bolt for X damage on an instant cast - both at melee range. The Warrior would build up 3 AP and drop a finisher, possibly Shifting or Strike. The Mage would build up 3 SP and drop a finisher, some version of magic Shifting or Strike. Etc, etc...

    WAIT! I have the perfect post for this: http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...mpionator.html

    Ahem, yeah...anyway...

    Imagine that...melee classes do the most damage when at melee range and the least from long-range.. Crazy concept, I know.
    The overall concept involves this: http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post2934283

    Insofar as addressing the Warrior on the Mage and the Warrior not on the Mage, from a CC P.O.V....

    The issue that needs to be tackled in regard to the Melee Warrior and the Ranged Mage is a pretty simple concept in regard to the base template:

    The Warrior and Mage should have an equal chance of killing each other.

    If one were to run this through a simulator with AI playing both roles, the Win/Loss Ratio should be 50/50.

    This is obviously not the case as it stands...and thus, it is the issue that needs to be addressed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    A warrior has at best TWO gap closers. As I pointed out, a dps that depends on melee range must have a way to close that gap. If you give mages a teleport equal in cooldown and range to a warriors gap closers, isnt that the same as warriors never having a gap closer at all? Without cooldowns, a warrior who is being kited does pathetic damage.

    Back to the thread topic, if the current system is imbalanced give everyone the same range and damage limitations and see if people like it better.

    Funny thing, I thought people chose their play style, ranged caster or melee, and rolled the appropriate class. I guess you cant have a game with different play styles because someone always feels like they are getting the shaft.
    A mage has at best ONE gap opener that isn't on DR (which is another issue, our gap openers are on DR, while gap closers aren't). As I pointed out, a DPS that depends on being at range must have a way to extend that gap. If you give warriors a charge equal in cooldown and range to a mages teleport, isn't that the same as mages never having a gap opener at all? Without cooldowns, a mage who is being beat on by a warrior does pathetic damage (and dies much quicker then a warrior being kited by a mage).

    Back to the thread topic, if the current system is imbalanced, how about we switch up roles for a bit, lets see how the melee like playing squishy casters with no way to keep melee off them and see if people like it better.

    Funny thing, I thought people chose their play style, ranged caster or melee, and rolled the appropriate class. I guess you cant have a game with different play styles because someone always feels like they are getting the shaft.

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